The Torah

[The Neon Peon]

Out of curiosity, how many of you have actually read [parts of] it?

A couple of my friends and I recently came across a copy and decided that it would be a nice addition to the collectively numerous religious books that we have read. After an hour of reading a section, skipping a few over to another, then repeating the process, all of us lost respect for the Jewish religion.

I'm a Christian and when people start bashing various parts of the Bible for one reason or another, I have two explanations that have (so far) managed to still make the book make sense: 1) It was written by people and handed down for thousands of years, duh there are going to be a few inconsistencies as people have added on stuff 2) It's a freakin' metaphor; there are a million in the bible, so why can't Jesus magically curing the blind also be one?

The second helped when we were reading the Torah as well, especially with the repeated text of "Thou shalt not boil a child in his mother's milk."

... But I (nor my friends) could find any excuse for some of the things inside it. Here's a sample that comes to mind (although more eloquently phrased in the actual text):

If you find an animal that has died of natural causes, do not eat the meat because it is unclean for you. Instead, give it to your neighbor or a foreigner.

Note: There's no special context that goes along with this. If someone knows and could post the actual quote, that would be great.

Has anyone else who's read it had a similar experience? I'm not one to quickly discriminate against people or ideologies, but the kind of stuff we found in the Torah is just stupid.

[Phatscotty]

Out of curiosity, how many of you have actually read [parts of] it?

A couple of my friends and I recently came across a copy and decided that it would be a nice addition to the collectively numerous religious books that we have read. After an hour of reading a section, skipping a few over to another, then repeating the process, all of us lost respect for the Jewish religion.

I'm a Christian and when people start bashing various parts of the Bible for one reason or another, I have two explanations that have (so far) managed to still make the book make sense: 1) It was written by people and handed down for thousands of years, duh there are going to be a few inconsistencies as people have added on stuff 2) It's a freakin' metaphor; there are a million in the bible, so why can't Jesus magically curing the blind also be one?

The second helped when we were reading the Torah as well, especially with the repeated text of "Thou shalt not boil a child in his mother's milk."

... But I (nor my friends) could find any excuse for some of the things inside it. Here's a sample that comes to mind (although more eloquently phrased in the actual text):

If you find an animal that has died of natural causes, do not eat the meat because it is unclean for you. Instead, give it to your neighbor or a foreigner.

Note: There's no special context that goes along with this. If someone knows and could post the actual quote, that would be great.

Has anyone else who's read it had a similar experience? I'm not one to quickly discriminate against people or ideologies, but the kind of stuff we found in the Torah is just stupid.

seems to me it's saying it is "unclean" to east an animal that was not killed for the purpose of human consumption. It could be an animal spirit thing???

[Khiva]

Forgive my ignorance, but I thought the Torah was Genesis through Deuteronomy of the old testament. What is the difference(s)? I can't help with interpretation, but it did remind of a story about Biblical context.

[BigBallinStalin]

What I find amazing about the Torah and the original Jewish "gangsters" is their great legacy and contribution to mankind, and womankind. For centuries they've been around, even when their common language was no longer Hebrew, but some form of Semitic, or whatever was popular in the Mesopotamian and Syrian regions of that day, "Hebrew [still] survived as language of religion, literature, and scholarship" (to quote, Mr. Bernard Lewis). The Torah was still recorded in ancient Hebrew, and with it their culture and way of life survived, unlike most of the civilizations and peoples of that time.

_____________________________
Back to the topic at hand:

Sure, there's plenty of tips on hygiene that can be found in that book. And what you may be missing is the context in which those pieces of advice were written.

As for the boiling baby's milk, perhaps it was a popular custom within and/or outside of the Jewish peoples where people bathed their babies in hot milk because they thought the Gods would like it, or it would be good for their health. That book is saying, "Don't be dumb, don't do it, it's not good."

As for the bad meat, well duh they eat Kosher. As for giving it to their neighbors, perhaps neighbor is too strict of a translation for the archaic word they used, so for the sake of brevity, the translator jotted down neighbor. Perhaps neighbor in that day had a bolder meaning, who knows. As for foreigner, same thing could apply. There were plenty of non-Jews around, so foreigner was an appropriate term.

I think the point in that out-of-context line of yours is that their book prohibits them from eating unclean meat (because it's bad for your health), but if you find some, give it to someone else who will gladly take it. Which was done a lot by others anyway, so perhaps they thought, "HEY, can't eat this stuff, and seeing that you have no book which prohibits you from doing so, how bout you enjoy it?" I don't think the underlying meaning that you may be hinting at is this: Bad meat, give to non-Jew, so they can die.

most of that stuff you're reading is about hygiene matters, which weren't too well expanded on back in the day.

[daddy1gringo]

Here's the passage you're talking about: Deuteronomy 14:21-- "You shall not eat anything which dies of itself. You may give it to the alien who is in your town, so that he may eat it, or you may sell it to a foreigner, for you are a holy people to the LORD your God. You shall not boil a young goat in its mother's milk.

Apparently most people in that day had no problem with cooking up "roadkill" (presumably as long as it was reasonably fresh). God had different standards for what His people could eat, but the rules didn't apply to foreigners. Many(and perhaps all) of the rules had health benefits, but there was also the religious/spiritual aspect of being holy by being obedient. Some say the rules have figurative meanings for us today, besides generally being good dietary advice.

This same verse has the other thing you mentioned. I guess you read an old translation that used the word "kid" for a young goat; nobody was talking about boiling babies. This is the basis for the kosher law against having meat and milk in the same meal. (No cheeseburgers! ) Extremely orthodox Jews have two sets of food-prep stuff (bowls, utensils, etc.) for meat and milk-products, to make sure they don't get mixed.

And yeah, reading your original post, it sounds like you're not aware that the Torah is part of the Christian Bible -- the first part to be exact.

[b.k. barunt]

News flash for you - road kill does not "die of itself" - it gets hit by a fooking automobile. If one of the Hebrews accidentally killed an animal by vehicle or other means there was nothing in the Torah to forbid ingesting such. Glad i could clear that up for you.

Also, the Torah is not the first part of the Bible - you're confusing the Torah with the Pentateuch, which is the five books of Moses. The Torah is a commentary on the Pentateuch with additional rules and regulations added. These additional rules and regs are not part of the Bible but are man made traditions.


Honibaz

[pimpdave]

Guys, please remember that Neon Peon is not a Christian, he's a Mormon. He really needs to stop lying and misrepresenting himself and his racist cult of kidnappers, rapists, and child abusers all the time.

Remember to watch the video in that hyperlink! And visit this thread for more discussion of their pernicious cult.

How Is It That Mormons Call Themselves Christians?

Also, interesting how Mormons can rewrite their cult whenever they want and make up new rules and deny the old stuff ever happened, but they criticize other religions for keeping antiquated texts they no longer follow out in the open? I'll tell ya, nothing says Christian more than taking the log out of one's own eye before attempting to remove the speck from another person's. Good thing then that Mormons aren't Christians!

[PLAYER57832]

If you find an animal that has died of natural causes, do not eat the meat because it is unclean for you. Instead, give it to your neighbor or a foreigner.

Note: There's no special context that goes along with this. If someone knows and could post the actual quote, that would be great.

At the time, many non-jews ate these things without a concern. Jews are told to give it, not sell it. It is just to see it used and not wasted. It is like a vegetarian who hits a deer with a car and asks his hunter friend if he wants it. The intent is not to trick anyone, just saying that you cannot use this, but it is OK to give it away to someone else who wants it.

Has anyone else who's read it had a similar experience? I'm not one to quickly discriminate against people or ideologies, but the kind of stuff we found in the Torah is just stupid.

Again, you cannot look at this in the context of 20th century mores. There are many things, from washing hands, to bleeding animals during slaughter, that we now do as a matter of course, but which were more or less "just" "Jewish things" back then. (some other cultures, but not, say, the common Roman).

Forgive my ignorance, but I thought the Torah was Genesis through Deuteronomy of the old testament. What is the difference(s)? I can't help with interpretation, but it did remind of a story about Biblical context.

No, I believe the Torah is an explanation of the old Testament (or most of it). The old Testament was considered "too holy" to be read by average people, and perhaps a bit too esoteric. The Mishnah and the Torah are each explanations, rules spelled out more clearly.

[PLAYER57832]

Guys, please remember that Neon Peon is not a Christian, he's a Mormon.

While most other Christian churches do not accept many tenants of the Morman church, saying he is not a Christian might be going a bit far. Without condoning the wrongs you mention, calling it a cult of rapists and murderers is not really more true for them than for other Christian and Quasi-Christian sects. (think Inquisition, campaign against Native Americans...etc.).

A person who accepts that Christ died on the cross for our sins is a Christian. Everything else is "details" about which we often disagree.

[Lionz]

People have confused the word Torah with the word Talmud maybe...

[BigBallinStalin]

Damn Mormons done it again.
[bigimg]http://www.noaa.gov/features/resources_0109/images/fire1.jpg[/bigimg]

[b.k. barunt]

Guys, please remember that Neon Peon is not a Christian, he's a Mormon.

While most other Christian churches do not accept many tenants of the Morman church, saying he is not a Christian might be going a bit far. Without condoning the wrongs you mention, calling it a cult of rapists and murderers is not really more true for them than for other Christian and Quasi-Christian sects. (think Inquisition, campaign against Native Americans...etc.).

A person who accepts that Christ died on the cross for our sins is a Christian. Everything else is "details" about which we often disagree.

That's abridging things to the point of absurdity. In Matthew 7 Jesus says that not all who call him Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. Kinda puts a big element of doubt in such simplified fire insurance.


Honibaz

[daddy1gringo]

News flash for you - road kill does not "die of itself" - it gets hit by a fooking automobile. If one of the Hebrews accidentally killed an animal by vehicle or other means there was nothing in the Torah to forbid ingesting such. Glad i could clear that up for you.

I was using the term "roadkill" humorously. I don't think they had vehicles fast enough to kill anything in those days. Obviously the verse is talking about something you already found dead, and didn't kill in a kosher manner in order to eat, but that takes longer to type.

Also, the Torah is not the first part of the Bible - you're confusing the Torah with the Pentateuch, which is the five books of Moses. The Torah is a commentary on the Pentateuch with additional rules and regulations added. These additional rules and regs are not part of the Bible but are man made traditions.

No, you are confusing "Torah" with "Talmud". "Pentateuch" is a synonym for "Torah". "Torah" is Hebrew for "the Law". "Pentateuch" is Greek for "5 books" coined by a 2nd c. Christian theologian.

[pimpdave]

Hey Neon Peon you lying member of a racist cult, why won't your racist cult that condones raping teenage girls come out and just be honest about it's old texts? Hm?

[b.k. barunt]

No, you are confusing "Torah" with "Talmud". "Pentateuch" is a synonym for "Torah". "Torah" is Hebrew for "the Law". "Pentateuch" is Greek for "5 books" coined by a 2nd c. Christian theologian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah

Although the Torah may sometimes be loosely referred to as the first five books of the Bible, in actuality it also contains the commentary on such and many minor rules and regulations supposedly based on scripture but not found therein.


Honibaz

[oddzy]

ok, i gotta admit i laughed when the op thought that boiling a kid in its mother's milk refered to a human child rather than a baby goat.

[AAFitz]

Guys, please remember that Neon Peon is not a Christian, he's a Mormon.

While most other Christian churches do not accept many tenants of the Morman church, saying he is not a Christian might be going a bit far. Without condoning the wrongs you mention, calling it a cult of rapists and murderers is not really more true for them than for other Christian and Quasi-Christian sects. (think Inquisition, campaign against Native Americans...etc.).

A person who accepts that Christ died on the cross for our sins is a Christian. Everything else is "details" about which we often disagree.

That's abridging things to the point of absurdity. In Matthew 7 Jesus says that not all who call him Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. Kinda puts a big element of doubt in such simplified fire insurance.


Honibaz

She didnt say they would go to heaven, she said they would simply be Christian by definition. No doubt many christians will not go to heaven, hypothetically speaking of course.

[The Neon Peon]

Thanks for the responses. I wasn't putting enough emphasis on the idea of Jews being God's chosen people when I was reading, so my understand of the quote was simply "If something's bad to eat, give it to someone who won't know that." (as the person receiving the meat would probably not be told of the manner that it was obtained). I hadn't considered the idea of different standards

Yes, Mormons are Christians, but I won't argue that point in detail here. If you do not wish to consider us such, feel free to do so. Although as the correct name of the church is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints," and the fact that we believe in the things within the Bible, and that the entire faith is around Jesus Christ, I don't really see why we're not.

ok, i gotta admit i laughed when the op thought that boiling a kid in its mother's milk refered to a human child rather than a baby goat.

When did I ever say that?

[PLAYER57832]

No, you are confusing "Torah" with "Talmud". "Pentateuch" is a synonym for "Torah". "Torah" is Hebrew for "the Law". "Pentateuch" is Greek for "5 books" coined by a 2nd c. Christian theologian.

here is what Wikki says on the matter (as I have said before, I don't consider it a great source except for very general information such as this)

The term "Torah" (Hebrew: תּוֹרָה, "teaching" or "instruction", sometimes translated as "law"[1]), refers either to the Five Books of Moses (or Pentateuch) or to the entirety of Judaism's founding legal and ethical religious texts.[2][3]

Note the "or". I believe this is why the confusion. In fact, my understanding is that reference to the first 5 books is mostly a Christian misunderstanding and that Jews using the term refer to the more complete definition.

[PLAYER57832]

She didnt say they would go to heaven, she said they would simply be Christian by definition. No doubt many christians will not go to heaven, hypothetically speaking of course.

Well, actually, I did mean "Christian" in the "true" sense, but as you say, there is also the broader definition. My basic assertion is just that we cannot simply look at labels and know what is in someone's heart. We have to sit down and talk to them.

Also, while I know there is much in Mormanism that, to my mind, can draw someone away from Christ, the same assertion is made about many groups.

[b.k. barunt]

She didnt say they would go to heaven, she said they would simply be Christian by definition. No doubt many christians will not go to heaven, hypothetically speaking of course.

An apt deflection. The problem lies in your "definition" which is erroneous. The appended "ian" in its most literal meaning is "follower of" not just one who believes. By your definition i would be a Christian, which is laughable to the point of sacrilege. According to the Scriptures, followers of Christ will go to "heaven", while those whose "belief" doesn't prompt them to do so will not. Gonna be a lot of disappointed and embarrassed Baptists - a lot of people really pissed at Billy Graham.


Honibaz

[PLAYER57832]

She didnt say they would go to heaven, she said they would simply be Christian by definition. No doubt many christians will not go to heaven, hypothetically speaking of course.

An apt deflection. The problem lies in your "definition" which is erroneous. The appended "ian" in its most literal meaning is "follower of" not just one who believes. By your definition i would be a Christian, which is laughable to the point of sacrilege. According to the Scriptures, followers of Christ will go to "heaven", while those whose "belief" doesn't prompt them to do so will not. Gonna be a lot of disappointed and embarrassed Baptists - a lot of people really pissed at Billy Graham.


Honibaz

The short of it is that this is one of the "great debates" within Christianity, as I believe you are aware. How much of our faith is works and how much "strictly" faith. Faith without works is dead, but works alone is also a route to death. At the same time, when Christ was one the cross, one who was with him repented and Christ asserted he would see that man in heavan.

MY ultimate answer is that we each do the "best we can", know we fall short, rely upon faith to more or less "make up the difference" for our errors (but I mean TRUE faith.. which moves one to do "good works") but ultimately, it is up to God to decide. Though I referred to discussion, even then I don't believe that even the most intense of discussion can really give us all God knows, so we will inevitably fall short. This knowledge is one reason why we, on Earth, need to be very, very careful on what we require of other human beings.

Most of the time when human beings have asserted with assurity that they KNOW what is right and wrong, that THEY have the right to insist that others follow their belief, they have been proven wrong. This happens over and over in many contexts. So, again, whether you take it as a fundamental US concept or a fundamental Christian concept, we don't have the right to insist others follow our particular path. We have an obligation to talk, to inform, but not insist they follow us. Only within our own churches may we insist.. and that is something entirely different.

Oh, and BK, far be it from me to know your heart, but just listening to you, I see no huge reason why you could not be a Christian.

[2dimes]

But Honabaz, what about the "Call on his name and yer in!" line? I'll find the real one if you want but I know you know, I know, you know which one I'm talkin' about.

[2dimes]

Oh, and BK, far be it from me to know your heart, but just listening to you, I see no huge reason why you could not be a Christian.

I won't get into the size, might be huge, I'm sure it's adequate. The organ in question is lower than his heart. I suspect his heart pumps faster when he's using it to become one with whom ever it is that evening.

[b.k. barunt]

Oh, and BK, far be it from me to know your heart, but just listening to you, I see no huge reason why you could not be a Christian.

I won't get into the size, might be huge, I'm sure it's adequate. The organ in question is lower than his heart. I suspect his heart pumps faster when he's using it to become one with whom ever it is that evening.

Actually that's an almost nonexistant problem with me. I'm 58, have done a lot of hard drugs, have had major traumatic injuries and i'm not as pretty as i used to be. It is rather large though, if you really must know, but i can't knock down doors with it anymore.

My huge problem is my reluctance to take shit. I walked the walk for 14 years and turned the other cheek on a regular basis - much harder for me than keeping my hands off the wimminz. It's not a matter of what you do or don't do though, it's whether you're doing your own thing or doing His thing - you're either on the bus or off the bus. A lot of delusional fuckheads think they're on the bus but the damn thing looks empty to me whenever i see it go by.

Player, if you're actually serious about confusing me with a follower of Jesus you might want to take a look at James 1:26.


Reprobate Honibaz