ACORN cleared of all wrongdoing in probe

[silent wind]

f*ck that... its bull shit. If you don't know who the goddamn president of the US is... guess what, you're too fucking stupid to have the right to vote. If you are too fucking stupid to know that we are at war, guess what... you don't deserve the right to vote. If the only thing that you know about with regards to the government is how much you get in fucking welfare and food stamps... f*ck you, you shouldn't get to vote... Because, of course you are going to vote for the guy that is telling you that you can get more free shit... on someone else's dime.

hmm... sounds like you're aiming for a total rewrite of the Constitution and the civil rights act.... or didn't you know that one way racists liked to keep African Americans from voting was to give them tests, knowing they couldn't pass them. Those sorts of actions were declared unConstitutional.

Congratulations, your big sbd wind will fart us back a few hundred years. Bravo!

(and for the record, Obama never promised free shit; he told his constituents that they had work to do!)

ohhh... I love being painted as a racist when I have made not a single remark that could even be slightly misconstrued as racist.

Let me be clear for you, since you like to draw imagined conclusions about the responsibility that I think should be levied upon a person for casting a vote. before you can vote, you should have an opinion. before you have an opinion, you should be informed. before you can be informed, you should be able to actually function as a critically thinking human being.

but here is the basic premise for voting. If you are too stupid to even know that you have the right to vote... or otherwise too busy to know when fucking election day is... then what fucking business do you have participating in the process that guides the nation in its policy?

Might I also point out... since I have made no comments regarding race... it is simply you that is racist... for bringing forward the assumption that I base my opinion on anything that has anything to do with something so trivial as skin color. Bravo your fuckling self.

[SultanOfSurreal]

f*ck that... its bull shit. If you don't know who the goddamn president of the US is... guess what, you're too fucking stupid to have the right to vote. If you are too fucking stupid to know that we are at war, guess what... you don't deserve the right to vote. If the only thing that you know about with regards to the government is how much you get in fucking welfare and food stamps... f*ck you, you shouldn't get to vote... Because, of course you are going to vote for the guy that is telling you that you can get more free shit... on someone else's dime.

hmm... sounds like you're aiming for a total rewrite of the Constitution and the civil rights act.... or didn't you know that one way racists liked to keep African Americans from voting was to give them tests, knowing they couldn't pass them. Those sorts of actions were declared unConstitutional.

Congratulations, your big sbd wind will fart us back a few hundred years. Bravo!

(and for the record, Obama never promised free shit; he told his constituents that they had work to do!)

ohhh... I love being painted as a racist when I have made not a single remark that could even be slightly misconstrued as racist.

Let me be clear for you, since you like to draw imagined conclusions about the responsibility that I think should be levied upon a person for casting a vote. before you can vote, you should have an opinion. before you have an opinion, you should be informed. before you can be informed, you should be able to actually function as a critically thinking human being.

but here is the basic premise for voting. If you are too stupid to even know that you have the right to vote... or otherwise too busy to know when fucking election day is... then what fucking business do you have participating in the process that guides the nation in its policy?

Might I also point out... since I have made no comments regarding race... it is simply you that is racist... for bringing forward the assumption that I base my opinion on anything that has anything to do with something so trivial as skin color. Bravo your fuckling self.

pack it up everyone, silent wind just blew hundreds of years of political philosophy and the collective jurisprudence of every single liberal democracy in the entire world right out the motherfucking door. UNIVERSAL SUFFRAGE IS DEAD IN THE WATER.

[silent wind]

lol... such drama. do you ever stop to ask yourself why the masses are so stupid, and when they vote, they have no idea what or who they are voting for or why... no, you wouldn't... because you don't give a shit... they voted for the liberal agenda that you support... wo why would you care? lol... such drama...

[SultanOfSurreal]

lol... such drama. do you ever stop to ask yourself why the masses are so stupid, and when they vote, they have no idea what or who they are voting for or why... no, you wouldn't... because you don't give a shit... they voted for the liberal agenda that you support... wo why would you care? lol... such drama...

silent wind: NON-STOP MIND BLOWAGE.

[stahrgazer]

Let me be clear for you, since you like to draw imagined conclusions about the responsibility that I think should be levied upon a person for casting a vote. before you can vote, you should have an opinion. before you have an opinion, you should be informed. before you can be informed, you should be able to actually function as a critically thinking human being.

Might I also point out... since I have made no comments regarding race... it is simply you that is racist... for bringing forward the assumption that I base my opinion on anything that has anything to do with something so trivial as skin color. Bravo your fuckling self.

I simply pointed out the history of Constitutional rights, and the history of Obama's reasons for wishing everyone to exercise their right to vote; which ties directly into why he suggested rewards to ACORN for helping people register. (Seemed like you needed to work on your 'getting informed' responsibility to live up to earning your privilege of voting...)

And I'll repeat, the "you should be able to actually function as a critically thinking human being" comment you made is exactly the sentiment that, in our past, kept certain types of Americans from being able to vote. African Americans were, first, considered "not human enough" to vote, more akin to monkeys and gorillas (which is why some people took offense at a cartoon someone made for a paper with Obama as a monkey); later, while acknowledged to be "human enough," African Americans were deemed 'not able to think critically enough to vote.' Women, on the other hand, were known to be human, but deemed not capable of the kinds of thinking required to make decisions, or, even if capable, should be addressing more important things like which color hat to wear with which gown and what to serve at their next teaparty.

Again, I merely pointed out the history behind sentiments like yours; thought it would help you to get informed.

[silent wind]

Let me be clear for you, since you like to draw imagined conclusions about the responsibility that I think should be levied upon a person for casting a vote. before you can vote, you should have an opinion. before you have an opinion, you should be informed. before you can be informed, you should be able to actually function as a critically thinking human being.

Might I also point out... since I have made no comments regarding race... it is simply you that is racist... for bringing forward the assumption that I base my opinion on anything that has anything to do with something so trivial as skin color. Bravo your fuckling self.

I simply pointed out the history of Constitutional rights, and the history of Obama's reasons for wishing everyone to exercise their right to vote; which ties directly into why he suggested rewards to ACORN for helping people register. (Seemed like you needed to work on your 'getting informed' responsibility to live up to earning your privilege of voting...)

And I'll repeat, the "you should be able to actually function as a critically thinking human being" comment you made is exactly the sentiment that, in our past, kept certain types of Americans from being able to vote. African Americans were, first, considered "not human enough" to vote, more akin to monkeys and gorillas (which is why some people took offense at a cartoon someone made for a paper with Obama as a monkey); later, while acknowledged to be "human enough," African Americans were deemed 'not able to think critically enough to vote.' Women, on the other hand, were known to be human, but deemed not capable of the kinds of thinking required to make decisions, or, even if capable, should be addressing more important things like which color hat to wear with which gown and what to serve at their next teaparty.

Again, I merely pointed out the history behind sentiments like yours; thought it would help you to get informed.

no you didn't. You were suggesting that I am a bigot, which I am certainly not. I believe that there should be a few simple requirements that you, as a participating member of the voting body, should understand before you participate. Its not hard... nor is it meant to separate out anyone other than those that simply don't participate in the system that they are about to effect. for instance, if you can't even name the three branches of government... please don't pretend that you understand how the system works. If you can describe the legislative body of the US... ummm... don't pretend that opinion on matters is going to improve state of affairs for a nation.

Again, I am no bigot. I believe that your opinion counts, so long as you really have one. otherwise, you are just being handed an opinion and you blindly strengthen the opinion of someone else. This is not what America was supposed to be.

[thegreekdog]

That being said, are we defending ACORN because all they did was attempt to engage in voter registration fraud? I think the party politics gets a little too mixed up in all of this. Simply put, ACORN needs to do a better job getting their volunteers to not fill out fake registrations. Is that a partisan issue? Of course not. So, let's cut the bullshit "ACORN is great!" nonsense and get them to be a little more careful with how they perform the voter registration process.

While I agree, exactly how do you make this happen? It's not like they do it on purpose.

How do we make this happen? By investigating the shit out of them and threaten to pull their funding.

Ok- some good points here. I think there are a couple of main issues we can reasonably agree on:

1) Acorn employees did submit fraudulent applications. It happened more than once, and it happened in many different locations.

2) There is no evidence that this actually swayed any election via fraudulent votes being cast.

So I think the issues are:

1) What were the motives of the Acorn workers? Were they genuinely trying to sway an election, or were they motivated by other factors- financial, success within the organistion, etc?

2) Was the Acorn leadership involved in the fraudulent claims? Was it policy? Was it covered up?

I'd like to add a third question to that, but it's not consensus driven, it's my own, so I'll add it below:

1) Did Acorn do a good job? They added thousands of legitimate voters to the electoral roles, with a massively higher percentage of legitimate voters submitted against a tiny number of fraudulent claims (who of course, didn't actually vote). Is there another way to get people out and voting who might be otherwise disenfranchised?

I don't think those are the issues, frankly. I think those are what some people want the issues to be. The only real issue is whether submitting fraudulent registrations is a bad thing or not.

I think maybe I wasn't clear. The anti-Acorn people are making this an issue about swaying elections. As many of you have pointed out, this simply has not happened. However, at the same time, many of you are arguing about voter fraud and not voter registration fraud and seem to be excusing the actions of Acorn by not acknowleding that the organization's failing is in the voter registration fraud itself.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to accept that Acorn should be held accountable for and should fix the problems the organization has with voter registration fraud. If Acorn does take steps to fix that problem, I don't think any of this becomes an issue in the first place.

In sum, you are all making straw arguments. You're arguing about nonexistant issues and ignoring the actual issue.

[silent wind]

I don't think those are the issues, frankly. I think those are what some people want the issues to be. The only real issue is whether submitting fraudulent registrations is a bad thing or not.

I think maybe I wasn't clear. The anti-Acorn people are making this an issue about swaying elections. As many of you have pointed out, this simply has not happened. However, at the same time, many of you are arguing about voter fraud and not voter registration fraud and seem to be excusing the actions of Acorn by not acknowleding that the organization's failing is in the voter registration fraud itself.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to accept that Acorn should be held accountable for and should fix the problems the organization has with voter registration fraud. If Acorn does take steps to fix that problem, I don't think any of this becomes an issue in the first place.

In sum, you are all making straw arguments. You're arguing about nonexistant issues and ignoring the actual issue.

I tend to agree with you, however, there is the existent argument to be made that ACORN did commit fraud, and the result was to make acorn look more successful than it really was, and in turn, they did get some pretty nice federal kick backs from the community organizer in chief. its all dirty fucking politics setting the stage for steeling public dollars if you ask me.

[stahrgazer]

Again, I am no bigot. I believe that your opinion counts, so long as you really have one. otherwise, you are just being handed an opinion and you blindly strengthen the opinion of someone else. This is not what America was supposed to be.

And where did you miss the part about, we're not supposed to coerce votes when asking someone if they are eligible and wish to register to vote?

[stahrgazer]

1) Acorn employees did submit fraudulent applications. It happened more than once, and it happened in many different locations.

The question is, did they attempt to get crazy applications, or did they merely follow federal law and submit what people put in? If the former, then yes, employees are at fault and ACORN should address that. If the latter, ACORN is not responsible, the law is... then again, it's feasible that some crazy momma, Mrs. Mousse or something, will name her child "Mickey" ... so where does someone whose job is to ask ppl to fill out a form and make sure to turn said form in, draw the line at what's likely and what's not?

Again: who actually VOTES is up to poll workers, who are screened separately by the appointed or voted-in Registrar of that district.

[thegreekdog]

1) Acorn employees did submit fraudulent applications. It happened more than once, and it happened in many different locations.

The question is, did they attempt to get crazy applications, or did they merely follow federal law and submit what people put in? If the former, then yes, employees are at fault and ACORN should address that. If the latter, ACORN is not responsible, the law is... then again, it's feasible that some crazy momma, Mrs. Mousse or something, will name her child "Mickey" ... so where does someone whose job is to ask ppl to fill out a form and make sure to turn said form in, draw the line at what's likely and what's not?

Again: who actually VOTES is up to poll workers, who are screened separately by the appointed or voted-in Registrar of that district.

Who actually votes is not the actual issue. The actual issue is your first paragraph.

[notyou2]

I thought america stood for freedom and democracy silent wind. Apparently in your book it doesn't. You clearly state that you believe everyone should be educated before they can vote. Next it will be only men can vote. Then only whites. Then only protestants. Where do you draw the line? Aren't all these people citizens? Are there certain things people need to have before they can be citizens? A certain IQ? A certain education?

[notyou2]

Silent wind are you secretly a communist?

[Woodruff]

f*ck that... its bull shit. If you don't know who the goddamn president of the US is... guess what, you're too fucking stupid to have the right to vote. If you are too fucking stupid to know that we are at war, guess what... you don't deserve the right to vote. If the only thing that you know about with regards to the government is how much you get in fucking welfare and food stamps... f*ck you, you shouldn't get to vote... Because, of course you are going to vote for the guy that is telling you that you can get more free shit... on someone else's dime.

hmm... sounds like you're aiming for a total rewrite of the Constitution and the civil rights act.... or didn't you know that one way racists liked to keep African Americans from voting was to give them tests, knowing they couldn't pass them. Those sorts of actions were declared unConstitutional.

Congratulations, your big sbd wind will fart us back a few hundred years. Bravo!

(and for the record, Obama never promised free shit; he told his constituents that they had work to do!)

ohhh... I love being painted as a racist when I have made not a single remark that could even be slightly misconstrued as racist.

Ohhh...I love how you are pretending that someone painted you as a racist when they didn't actually make any sort of statement like that at all.

[silent wind]

f*ck that... its bull shit. If you don't know who the goddamn president of the US is... guess what, you're too fucking stupid to have the right to vote. If you are too fucking stupid to know that we are at war, guess what... you don't deserve the right to vote. If the only thing that you know about with regards to the government is how much you get in fucking welfare and food stamps... f*ck you, you shouldn't get to vote... Because, of course you are going to vote for the guy that is telling you that you can get more free shit... on someone else's dime.

hmm... sounds like you're aiming for a total rewrite of the Constitution and the civil rights act.... or didn't you know that one way racists liked to keep African Americans from voting was to give them tests, knowing they couldn't pass them. Those sorts of actions were declared unConstitutional.

Congratulations, your big sbd wind will fart us back a few hundred years. Bravo!

(and for the record, Obama never promised free shit; he told his constituents that they had work to do!)

ohhh... I love being painted as a racist when I have made not a single remark that could even be slightly misconstrued as racist.

Ohhh...I love how you are pretending that someone painted you as a racist when they didn't actually make any sort of statement like that at all.

fucking bold section is an implication of fucking racism... never mind the notion that he never fucking denied my point. Perhaps, you might let stahrgazer make his own points? hmmm?!?!

[Timminz]

f*ck that... its bull shit. If you don't know who the goddamn president of the US is... guess what, you're too fucking stupid to have the right to vote. If you are too fucking stupid to know that we are at war, guess what... you don't deserve the right to vote. If the only thing that you know about with regards to the government is how much you get in fucking welfare and food stamps... f*ck you, you shouldn't get to vote... Because, of course you are going to vote for the guy that is telling you that you can get more free shit... on someone else's dime.

hmm... sounds like you're aiming for a total rewrite of the Constitution and the civil rights act.... or didn't you know that one way racists liked to keep African Americans from voting was to give them tests, knowing they couldn't pass them. Those sorts of actions were declared unConstitutional.

Congratulations, your big sbd wind will fart us back a few hundred years. Bravo!

(and for the record, Obama never promised free shit; he told his constituents that they had work to do!)

ohhh... I love being painted as a racist when I have made not a single remark that could even be slightly misconstrued as racist.

Ohhh...I love how you are pretending that someone painted you as a racist when they didn't actually make any sort of statement like that at all.

fucking bold section is an implication of fucking racism... never mind the notion that he never fucking denied my point. Perhaps, you might let stahrgazer make his own points? hmmm?!?!

No one painted you as a racist. Stahr seemed to merely be pointing out that, in the past, racists have used the same ideas that you are.

"You are acting just as some racists once did." =/= "You are a racist."

If you would prefer not to be compared to racist people, try not espousing the same views as them.

[rockfist]

The idea of tests to determine voting need not be racist. Yes, it has been used for racist purposes in the past, but there is no reason to assume it MUST be used for racist purposes.

But I imagine to a Liberal that statement is much like saying to someone of my political persuasion that "government need not be wasteful."

I do have an idea for cutting government waste related to the "spend all the budget at the end of the year so you don't lose it next year mentality." What if we let government workers keep a portion of the unspent budget at the end of the year and returned a portion to the taxpayers and cut the budget by the amount returned to the taxpayers? I don't give a shit if it makes government employees "rich" if it saves us money and over time the budgets would be reduced to needed levels.

[Timminz]

The idea of tests to determine voting need not be racist. Yes, it has been used for racist purposes in the past, but there is no reason to assume it MUST be used for racist purposes.

Exactly.

It would still go against the idea of universal suffrage, and thus remains a bad idea.

[thegreekdog]

The idea of tests to determine voting need not be racist. Yes, it has been used for racist purposes in the past, but there is no reason to assume it MUST be used for racist purposes.

Exactly.

It would still go against the idea of universal suffrage, and thus remains a bad idea.

Yes... tests for voting are bad news.

[Woodruff]

f*ck that... its bull shit. If you don't know who the goddamn president of the US is... guess what, you're too fucking stupid to have the right to vote. If you are too fucking stupid to know that we are at war, guess what... you don't deserve the right to vote. If the only thing that you know about with regards to the government is how much you get in fucking welfare and food stamps... f*ck you, you shouldn't get to vote... Because, of course you are going to vote for the guy that is telling you that you can get more free shit... on someone else's dime.

hmm... sounds like you're aiming for a total rewrite of the Constitution and the civil rights act.... or didn't you know that one way racists liked to keep African Americans from voting was to give them tests, knowing they couldn't pass them. Those sorts of actions were declared unConstitutional.

Congratulations, your big sbd wind will fart us back a few hundred years. Bravo!

(and for the record, Obama never promised free shit; he told his constituents that they had work to do!)

ohhh... I love being painted as a racist when I have made not a single remark that could even be slightly misconstrued as racist.

Ohhh...I love how you are pretending that someone painted you as a racist when they didn't actually make any sort of statement like that at all.

fucking bold section is an implication of fucking racism... never mind the notion that he never fucking denied my point. Perhaps, you might let stahrgazer make his own points? hmmm?!?!

If you believe that was a case of stahrgazer implying you were a racist, then you really need to work on your reading comprehension. Your capability in that area is strongly lacking.

[silent wind]

if you compare an apple to an orange, then you are seeing the similarities between apples and oranges, as in, they are both seed bearing fruits. when you compare the idea of a test for someone to determine their eligibility to vote... to the notion that it once was a racially motivated ploy to keep blacks from voting, then you are drawing conclusions that they are both intended to keep specific minorities from voting... which is a racist ploy still. I am not, nor have I ever been, racist. I just happen to think that you have to give a shit about what you are voting on... more than say... "yippie screw! I get a pack of smokes if I put x's in this here box!"

I read and comprehend quite well, thank you.

[john9blue]

"You aren't reading correctly" is a favorite comeback among many here. stahr was drawing comparisons between you and racists, plain and simple. If they can't connect the dots then that's their fault, not yours.

[bradleybadly]

If you believe that was a case of stahrgazer implying you were a racist, then you really need to work on your reading comprehension. Your capability in that area is strongly lacking.

You're full of shit

[silent wind]

If you believe that was a case of stahrgazer implying you were a racist, then you really need to work on your reading comprehension. Your capability in that area is strongly lacking.

You're full of shit

fucking full of shit...

[stahrgazer]

if you compare an apple to an orange, then you are seeing the similarities between apples and oranges, as in, they are both seed bearing fruits. when you compare the idea of a test for someone to determine their eligibility to vote... to the notion that it once was a racially motivated ploy to keep blacks from voting, then you are drawing conclusions that they are both intended to keep specific minorities from voting... which is a racist ploy still. I am not, nor have I ever been, racist. I just happen to think that you have to give a shit about what you are voting on... more than say... "yippie screw! I get a pack of smokes if I put x's in this here box!"

I read and comprehend quite well, thank you.

No, I'm telling you the reason certain Consitutional elements were passed, historically, to fight against the idea that someone, anyone, who's a citizen of the United States, who hasn't had their rights taken away for committing some abhorrent offense and not yet paid society's cost for it (felons), should be prohibited from voting because they can't spell or because you (or anyone) believes they're insufficiently informed.

Although, if someone did happen to think laws like that were a good idea after all, I'd say, "inability to discuss intelligently without use of profanity" should disqualify a person from voting; there are other adjectives, after all. Use of those other adjectives might reflect adequate use of and understanding of the words within a standard school dictionary, and as such, could display a person's ability to understand the complexities of politics, social needs, and Constitutional and human rights. (Too bad you're not displaying it.)