ACORN cleared of all wrongdoing in probe

[thegreekdog]

I just wanted to make the point (Snorri made it, but I'm going to do it a little differently).

Let's assume that ACORN has not been accused of voter fraud (and, for all I've read, they are not actually guilty of vote fraud).

That being said, are we defending ACORN because all they did was attempt to engage in voter registration fraud? I think the party politics gets a little too mixed up in all of this. Simply put, ACORN needs to do a better job getting their volunteers to not fill out fake registrations. Is that a partisan issue? Of course not. So, let's cut the bullshit "ACORN is great!" nonsense and get them to be a little more careful with how they perform the voter registration process.

Or, more likely, half of us can argue ACORN is great and they didn't commit voter fraud therefore shut up Republicans. And the other half of us can argue ACORN is just a tool of the Democrat political machine.

[Snorri1234]

That being said, are we defending ACORN because all they did was attempt to engage in voter registration fraud? I think the party politics gets a little too mixed up in all of this. Simply put, ACORN needs to do a better job getting their volunteers to not fill out fake registrations. Is that a partisan issue? Of course not. So, let's cut the bullshit "ACORN is great!" nonsense and get them to be a little more careful with how they perform the voter registration process.

While I agree, exactly how do you make this happen? It's not like they do it on purpose.

[thegreekdog]

That being said, are we defending ACORN because all they did was attempt to engage in voter registration fraud? I think the party politics gets a little too mixed up in all of this. Simply put, ACORN needs to do a better job getting their volunteers to not fill out fake registrations. Is that a partisan issue? Of course not. So, let's cut the bullshit "ACORN is great!" nonsense and get them to be a little more careful with how they perform the voter registration process.

While I agree, exactly how do you make this happen? It's not like they do it on purpose.

How do we make this happen? By investigating the shit out of them and threaten to pull their funding.

[Snorri1234]

That being said, are we defending ACORN because all they did was attempt to engage in voter registration fraud? I think the party politics gets a little too mixed up in all of this. Simply put, ACORN needs to do a better job getting their volunteers to not fill out fake registrations. Is that a partisan issue? Of course not. So, let's cut the bullshit "ACORN is great!" nonsense and get them to be a little more careful with how they perform the voter registration process.

While I agree, exactly how do you make this happen? It's not like they do it on purpose.

How do we make this happen? By investigating the shit out of them and threaten to pull their funding.

Did that.

What I mean is: what should ACORN do? How exactly should ACORN get volunteers from filling out forms with fake names?

[silent wind]

That being said, are we defending ACORN because all they did was attempt to engage in voter registration fraud? I think the party politics gets a little too mixed up in all of this. Simply put, ACORN needs to do a better job getting their volunteers to not fill out fake registrations. Is that a partisan issue? Of course not. So, let's cut the bullshit "ACORN is great!" nonsense and get them to be a little more careful with how they perform the voter registration process.

While I agree, exactly how do you make this happen? It's not like they do it on purpose.

How do we make this happen? By investigating the shit out of them and threaten to pull their funding.

Did that.

What I mean is: what should ACORN do? How exactly should ACORN get volunteers from filling out forms with fake names?

wait... they were fucking volunteers?!? no... they were given incentives to jack their numbers. It was the numbers that they were after... Higher voter registration, better kick backs... don't you get it... the entire system is fucking corrupt.

[Snorri1234]

That being said, are we defending ACORN because all they did was attempt to engage in voter registration fraud? I think the party politics gets a little too mixed up in all of this. Simply put, ACORN needs to do a better job getting their volunteers to not fill out fake registrations. Is that a partisan issue? Of course not. So, let's cut the bullshit "ACORN is great!" nonsense and get them to be a little more careful with how they perform the voter registration process.

While I agree, exactly how do you make this happen? It's not like they do it on purpose.

How do we make this happen? By investigating the shit out of them and threaten to pull their funding.

Did that.

What I mean is: what should ACORN do? How exactly should ACORN get volunteers from filling out forms with fake names?

wait... they were fucking volunteers?!? no... they were given incentives to jack their numbers. It was the numbers that they were after... Higher voter registration, better kick backs... don't you get it... the entire system is fucking corrupt.

Yeah ok "part-time workers for a few months".

[thegreekdog]

I don't know what ACORN should do... maybe check the registrations out and eliminate them; refuse to pay the part-timers if they give them fake registrations.

[Snorri1234]

I don't know what ACORN should do... maybe check the registrations out and eliminate them;

Illegal.

refuse to pay the part-timers if they give them fake registrations.

Incredibly hard to check, and if the contract isn't very clear probably also illegal.

[thegreekdog]

I don't know what ACORN should do... maybe check the registrations out and eliminate them;

Illegal.

refuse to pay the part-timers if they give them fake registrations.

Incredibly hard to check, and if the contract isn't very clear probably also illegal.

Illegal? Really? Didn't know that.

[Snorri1234]

I don't know what ACORN should do... maybe check the registrations out and eliminate them;

Illegal.

refuse to pay the part-timers if they give them fake registrations.

Incredibly hard to check, and if the contract isn't very clear probably also illegal.

Illegal? Really? Didn't know that.

Yeah filled in forms have to be submitted. (ACORN checks if they're fake, but they can only flag them and send them with the rest.)

Compensating people for how many forms they gathered was a pretty dumb move though. Understandable, but ultimately pretty dumb. That very thing is illegal actually, but I'm not sure. That's at the local level though, where a boss tells the workers to get enough registrations so that the organization doesn't think they've been slacking and fires them. (Wiki says it was quotas, not a compensation per form. That would probably make it more tempting for people to fill the last few out with fake names to get it.)

[Symmetry]

That being said, are we defending ACORN because all they did was attempt to engage in voter registration fraud? I think the party politics gets a little too mixed up in all of this. Simply put, ACORN needs to do a better job getting their volunteers to not fill out fake registrations. Is that a partisan issue? Of course not. So, let's cut the bullshit "ACORN is great!" nonsense and get them to be a little more careful with how they perform the voter registration process.

While I agree, exactly how do you make this happen? It's not like they do it on purpose.

How do we make this happen? By investigating the shit out of them and threaten to pull their funding.

Ok- some good points here. I think there are a couple of main issues we can reasonably agree on:

1) Acorn employees did submit fraudulent applications. It happened more than once, and it happened in many different locations.

2) There is no evidence that this actually swayed any election via fraudulent votes being cast.

So I think the issues are:

1) What were the motives of the Acorn workers? Were they genuinely trying to sway an election, or were they motivated by other factors- financial, success within the organistion, etc?

2) Was the Acorn leadership involved in the fraudulent claims? Was it policy? Was it covered up?

I'd like to add a third question to that, but it's not consensus driven, it's my own, so I'll add it below:

1) Did Acorn do a good job? They added thousands of legitimate voters to the electoral roles, with a massively higher percentage of legitimate voters submitted against a tiny number of fraudulent claims (who of course, didn't actually vote). Is there another way to get people out and voting who might be otherwise disenfranchised?

[Snorri1234]

1) What were the motives of the Acorn workers? Were they genuinely trying to sway an election, or were they motivated by other factors- financial, success within the organistion, etc?

The ones who have been found out (both the lowlevel and the slightly higher level) pretty much said the latter. I think they all figured that voter fraud would be hard and also too much effort.

2) Was the Acorn leadership involved in the fraudulent claims? Was it policy? Was it covered up?

Unlikely for the first two. They might have attempted a coverup but not according to the investigation so I guess no.

1) Did Acorn do a good job? They added thousands of legitimate voters to the electoral roles, with a massively higher percentage of legitimate voters submitted against a tiny number of fraudulent claims (who of course, didn't actually vote). Is there another way to get people out and voting who might be otherwise disenfranchised?

Good point. Wiki says (that some official dudes said) that ACORN had a slightly larger percentage of fake forms than other organizations that do the same thing when they compared samples.

I'd say that given that no illegal votes were cast, that ACORN has flagged suspect registrations (even ones that on further inspection were legit), a lot of the people who attempted the fraud were caught, and that thousands of people actually got out to vote that ACORN did a good job. I support trying to decrease the problems but I can't find A LOT of fault with the organization. (Certainly not like the rightwingers who call for hangings and who believe Obama stole the election, crazy people.)

[notyou2]

Thanks symmetry for cutting to the chase and exposing this thread for the twist on reality that it is.

[stahrgazer]

Was the point of it all to get Obama elected? On the surface, I say no, probably not, but if you look at how Obama and his party have financially rewarded Acorn with federal money after the election, I think that you can start to draw some pretty interesting lines that lead you to see that this whole thing with acorn was about bring the clueless to the poles.

The clueless have the right to vote. Obama has, since he became interested in law, made "register and vote!" one of his pet projects, regardless where he served. ACORN helped many register, but ACORN wasn't the only way Obama encouraged voters to register. I helped out on some registration drives; we had strict guidelines to follow:
1. Ask if the person is entitled to vote (not lost privileges; legal citizen).
2. Ask if the person is already registered to vote.
3. Ask if the person is (for Florida) interested in having a ballot mailed (a reason to re-reg, so they can check the box requesting a mailed ballot)
4. Ensure all the blanks are filled.
5. Request that only serious applications be filled out.
6. Ensure that each and every card is provided to the local Voter Registration office (they had a system worked out for that.)
They didn't make up the rules; the rules came right from the County Registrar, which come right from statutes.

So, no, the push to register wasn't about getting "clueless" to the poles. It was about each American who is entitled to vote, exercising that special 'right' we have here; a right that some of our brothers and sisters are dying over in the mid-east, and have died elswhere, in order to bring to other nations.

I'm not one to harp on someone for being ignorant or worthless to society as a whole, but I am one that believes the vast majority of Americans have no understanding of the real issues that plague our nation.

By the way, Obama's also into the clueless becoming less clueless, so that's another of his pet projects: education.

I was impressed at how much the Obama campaign pushed for people to educate themselves about issues, then make their choice and vote.

[silent wind]

Was the point of it all to get Obama elected? On the surface, I say no, probably not, but if you look at how Obama and his party have financially rewarded Acorn with federal money after the election, I think that you can start to draw some pretty interesting lines that lead you to see that this whole thing with acorn was about bring the clueless to the poles.

The clueless have the right to vote. Obama has, since he became interested in law, made "register and vote!" one of his pet projects, regardless where he served. ACORN helped many register, but ACORN wasn't the only way Obama encouraged voters to register. I helped out on some registration drives; we had strict guidelines to follow:
1. Ask if the person is entitled to vote (not lost privileges; legal citizen).
2. Ask if the person is already registered to vote.
3. Ask if the person is (for Florida) interested in having a ballot mailed (a reason to re-reg, so they can check the box requesting a mailed ballot)
4. Ensure all the blanks are filled.
5. Request that only serious applications be filled out.
6. Ensure that each and every card is provided to the local Voter Registration office (they had a system worked out for that.)
They didn't make up the rules; the rules came right from the County Registrar, which come right from statutes.

So, no, the push to register wasn't about getting "clueless" to the poles. It was about each American who is entitled to vote, exercising that special 'right' we have here; a right that some of our brothers and sisters are dying over in the mid-east, and have died elswhere, in order to bring to other nations.

I'm not one to harp on someone for being ignorant or worthless to society as a whole, but I am one that believes the vast majority of Americans have no understanding of the real issues that plague our nation.

By the way, Obama's also into the clueless becoming less clueless, so that's another of his pet projects: education.

I was impressed at how much the Obama campaign pushed for people to educate themselves about issues, then make their choice and vote.

f*ck that... its bull shit. If you don't know who the goddamn president of the US is... guess what, you're too fucking stupid to have the right to vote. If you are too fucking stupid to know that we are at war, guess what... you don't deserve the right to vote. If the only thing that you know about with regards to the government is how much you get in fucking welfare and food stamps... f*ck you, you shouldn't get to vote... Because, of course you are going to vote for the guy that is telling you that you can get more free shit... on someone else's dime.

[notyou2]

Man, you have serious issues non-silent wind. I think you should move to another country where many don't get to vote before you go postal in your native country. May I suggest Somalia.

[Snorri1234]

Man, you have serious issues non-silent wind. I think you should move to another country where many don't get to vote before you go postal in your native country. May I suggest Somalia.

Right wing libertarian utopia!

[silent wind]

no thanks... I am an American, and I have the right to tell you what I think about fucking acorn. I like it like that and I ain't going anywhere. As for the jab about my name, I wanted to be silent wind breaking... it just didn't fit.

[Woodruff]

f*ck that... its bull shit. If you don't know who the goddamn president of the US is... guess what, you're too fucking stupid to have the right to vote. If you are too fucking stupid to know that we are at war, guess what... you don't deserve the right to vote.

You don't actually understand what a "right" is, do you? It's not the opposite of "left", son.

[Symmetry]

no thanks... I am an American, and I have the right to tell you what I think about fucking acorn. I like it like that and I ain't going anywhere. As for the jab about my name, I wanted to be silent wind breaking... it just didn't fit.

Feel free to address the points I outlined above at any point.

I'm still waiting on your evidence that people registered illegally actually voted. People might be more inclined to your criticism of Acorn if you admitted that you made a mistake, and then moved on. Not everyone can admit that they were wrong, it takes a certain kind of person to say that they made a mistake and they're sorry about it. I honestly don't know if that's something you're capable of- some people can, others can't. I really respect people who can disagree and say why they disagree with me. I would assume you're the same. Most thinking people seem to me to feel the same way. Promote false aaumptions and fail to bring up any facts when asked (in spite of claims that the evidence is everywhere) and people will be annoyed and act poorly towards you.

don't be daft. dead people are always on registers to vote... and somehow... they seem to show up. its called voter fraud.

Do you still stand by that?

Accept that you were wrong and move on.

[silent wind]

no thanks... I am an American, and I have the right to tell you what I think about fucking acorn. I like it like that and I ain't going anywhere. As for the jab about my name, I wanted to be silent wind breaking... it just didn't fit.

Feel free to address the points I outlined above at any point.

I'm still waiting on your evidence that people registered illegally actually voted. People might be more inclined to your criticism of Acorn if you admitted that you made a mistake, and then moved on. Not everyone can admit that they were wrong, it takes a certain kind of person to say that they made a mistake and they're sorry about it. I honestly don't know if that's something you're capable of- some people can, others can't. I really respect people who can disagree and say why they disagree with me. I would assume you're the same. Most thinking people seem to me to feel the same way. Promote false aaumptions and fail to bring up any facts when asked (in spite of claims that the evidence is everywhere) and people will be annoyed and act poorly towards you.

don't be daft. dead people are always on registers to vote... and somehow... they seem to show up. its called voter fraud.

Do you still stand by that?

Accept that you were wrong and move on.

I conceded that point.

Oh, for goodness sake- that's just more of the same. Can you actually show a case of someone illegally voting having been registered by ACORN? That's what you claim, that's what I'd like to see. Stop messing around, admit that you were wrong, and move on.

I will concede that voter registration fraud is not the same as voter fraud... but lets be clear... ACORN committed fraud. There have been countless reports of duplicate and non existent registrants submitted. why the f*ck is anyone trying to defend these ass holes, when the organization was fraudulent? It wasn't like it was a few remote cases... it was rampant throughout the org. wtf?

and by the way, I can't really show you a case where someone fraudulently voted... but don't try to suggest that it doesn't happen... it most assuredly does.

[notyou2]

I'd say "uncle"

[silent wind]

I'd say "uncle"

what?

f*ck that. if he isn't even going to read what I wrote, in goddamn response to his point, in concession to his point... and then try to flame me for not doing so later, then he can suffer the sting of a smack of my cock on his forehead. Can you say mushroom welt?

[notyou2]

Wow, you seriously have some issues dude. Get some help.

[stahrgazer]

f*ck that... its bull shit. If you don't know who the goddamn president of the US is... guess what, you're too fucking stupid to have the right to vote. If you are too fucking stupid to know that we are at war, guess what... you don't deserve the right to vote. If the only thing that you know about with regards to the government is how much you get in fucking welfare and food stamps... f*ck you, you shouldn't get to vote... Because, of course you are going to vote for the guy that is telling you that you can get more free shit... on someone else's dime.

hmm... sounds like you're aiming for a total rewrite of the Constitution and the civil rights act.... or didn't you know that one way racists liked to keep African Americans from voting was to give them tests, knowing they couldn't pass them. Those sorts of actions were declared unConstitutional.

Congratulations, your big sbd wind will fart us back a few hundred years. Bravo!

(and for the record, Obama never promised free shit; he told his constituents that they had work to do!)