Clean Coal: Myth or Reality?

[PLAYER57832]

I think we need to spend some money developing tidal power. More regularly occurring than sun or wind. Better for the environment than coal or oil.

Yeah, that's my addition to this thread.

True, and I believe it is possible. However, It MUST be done in a way that does not destroy the balance of the tidal cycles. We cannot underestimate the value of those tidal fluxes, tidal regions on fisheries. Destroying those cycles means much more than "just" food ... and certainly much more than is even evident by the very abundant life in the tidal regions.

I'm not sure we actually could destroy tidal cycles right? I mean that would take a gigantic undertaking. Perhaps I'm mistaken and it's easier than I think it is.

If you disrupt the flow of water, you disrupt the tidal cycle. The place to look at impacts is Holland. They already use the technology, from what I understand. I am not saying its impossible, but nothing is "free". And too often the subtle environmental effects don't get taken into consideration, even if we fully understand what they are. And, worse, too often we really don't understand.


Just as an example, one big reason for the fall of many eastern fisheries, why they are not better able to rebound (and yes, I know its very, very complex), is the disruption of the Chesapeak bay systems. Now, certainly the impact of tidal technology would be different. However, the whole cycle of sand transport, marshes, etc depend upon that. In many cases, things might work well in "normal" times, but come a major storm .. and a lot of those "unneeded" . "extras" then become critical.

I like a quote from Aldo Leopold. "The first rule of intelligent tinkering is to keep all the parts". I would add.. and to remember where they all fit! When you know your base, only then is it even halfway safe to tinker. We, in our arrogance assume we "know the base", but in truth, rarely do. THAT is the root of many civilization falls. That is also why it is idiotic to ever put economics above long term environmental issues. However, because people in power tend to be people who have gained money and power becuase they value those short term effects, the result is pretty standard.

[thegreekdog]

Okay Player, that's fine. But I'm not talking about natural beach erosion or something like water pollution. And I'm not talking about a river or a stream. I'm talking about manmade machines being able to disrupt tidal flows. I'm pretty sure that would be impossible for us to do apart from damming the ocean or something.

[PLAYER57832]

Okay Player, that's fine. But I'm not talking about natural beach erosion or something like water pollution. And I'm not talking about a river or a stream. I'm talking about manmade machines being able to disrupt tidal flows. I'm pretty sure that would be impossible for us to do apart from damming the ocean or something.

Number one, you cannot separate out those issues. Erosion and deposition, creation of tidal marshes are factors of the tides. Disrupt the tides and you necessarily disrupt the system.

Just as a basic point, if you remove any energy from the flows, then you reduce their ability to carry silt. That means that beaches/deposition points occur where they did not before and the size of the silt/sand carried is different, which greatly affects the kinds of vegatation and fauna found in the regions. Direct pollution in this case is likely a lessor problem, though there may be some spillage from things like oil, increased human activity, etc.

So, what I said is true.. and again, its frustrating that even someone as educated as yourself is apparently just unaware of these basic issues. It is a definite illustration of why we need better science in our schools. How can people make decisions when they don't even have basic information?

That said, I believe there are avenues that are possible in this. One prospect I like is looking at deep sea energy creation systems. They may have less disruptive potential, but are also much more technically difficult (and still not without huge impact... think of shipping, etc just as one point).

[thegreekdog]

Okay Player, that's fine. But I'm not talking about natural beach erosion or something like water pollution. And I'm not talking about a river or a stream. I'm talking about manmade machines being able to disrupt tidal flows. I'm pretty sure that would be impossible for us to do apart from damming the ocean or something.

Number one, you cannot separate out those issues. Erosion and deposition, creation of tidal marshes are factors of the tides. Disrupt the tides and you necessarily disrupt the system.

Just as a basic point, if you remove any energy from the flows, then you reduce their ability to carry silt. That means that beaches/deposition points occur where they did not before and the size of the silt/sand carried is different, which greatly affects the kinds of vegatation and fauna found in the regions. Direct pollution in this case is likely a lessor problem, though there may be some spillage from things like oil, increased human activity, etc.

Okay, that's what I wanted to know.

So, what I said is true.. and again, its frustrating that even someone as educated as yourself is apparently just unaware of these basic issues. It is a definite illustration of why we need better science in our schools. How can people make decisions when they don't even have basic information?

Sorry, that's not basic information. In any event, I'm fairly sure I did learn about tidal forces in high school. However, since I graduated from high school more than 10 years ago and I don't study or do anything related to tidal forces now, I think my lack of knowledge on this issue can be forgiven.

In related news, can you name various acts that are crimes in Pennsylvania? Can you talk about the various taxes imposed by Pennsylvania? Can you tell me who the nine Supreme Court justices are without looking it up? No? It's frustrating that even someone as educated as yourself is apparently just unaware of these basic issues.

I think you get my point.

[PLAYER57832]

So, what I said is true.. and again, its frustrating that even someone as educated as yourself is apparently just unaware of these basic issues. It is a definite illustration of why we need better science in our schools. How can people make decisions when they don't even have basic information?

Sorry, that's not basic information. In any event, I'm fairly sure I did learn about tidal forces in high school. However, since I graduated from high school more than 10 years ago and I don't study or do anything related to tidal forces now, I think my lack of knowledge on this issue can be forgiven.

I am in no way criticizes you or your knowledge. My whole point is that you are well above average, both in your understanding, your willingness to seek out answers and your willingness to listen. Yet... that is why I find it frightening. It really IS as basic as knowing verbs, knowing how to add and subtract, or should be!

In related news, can you name various acts that are crimes in Pennsylvania? Can you talk about the various taxes imposed by Pennsylvania? Can you tell me who the nine Supreme Court justices are without looking it up? No? It's frustrating that even someone as educated as yourself is apparently just unaware of these basic issues.

I think you get my point.

Actually, I can, particularly when you bring it back as loosely as the knowledge I feel should be general regarding natural resources. See, even if I don't know exactly which issues the PA courts are deciding right now, I DO know how our court system works, I DO know a fair amount about taxes (and definitely have VERY intimate knowledge of any taxes that impact me, my community, directly). Ironically enough, you prove my point quite well.

In fact, the average person, learns far more about how our government works than they do about how their lawn works... never mind the stream down the road OR, the tides.

[thegreekdog]

It really IS as basic as knowing verbs, knowing how to add and subtract, or should be!

No, it is not. It is not as basic as knowing how to speak or knowing how to perform simple math. It's not. Sorry. I know you want it to be, but it's not.

Actually, I can, particularly when you bring it back as loosely as the knowledge I feel should be general regarding natural resources. See, even if I don't know exactly which issues the PA courts are deciding right now, I DO know how our court system works, I DO know a fair amount about taxes (and definitely have VERY intimate knowledge of any taxes that impact me, my community, directly). Ironically enough, you prove my point quite well.

In fact, the average person, learns far more about how our government works than they do about how their lawn works... never mind the stream down the road OR, the tides.

I don't think you know how our court system works. That's why people need attorneys. I don't know how tidal forces work, that's why I asked the question.

I do not think you know about taxes, except those that impact you. I don't know how tidal forces work because they don't affect me (now, I know your initial response will be "but don't you see greek, tidal forces affect us all..." that's fine, but let's be realistic... I have a lot more to worry about than whether the New Jersey tides are going to affect me).

The average person doesn't even vote, much less know how our government works. Don't even get me started on that one. C'mon, you're being completely unrealistic here.

The bottom line is that if I want to know about tidal forces, I'll ask. Which I've done. That's really all a non-scientist should be expected to do. That's the reasonable thing to do. I've done it.

If you want to know about taxes that don't affect you, you ask someone who is knowledgeable about those things.

[sully800]

How about OTEC (Ocean Temp Energy Converison)

It takes advantage of the temperature difference between surface water near the equator and the cold water below using the Rankine cycle. Contains MUCH more potential energy than tidal energy production could ever create. In fact "This potential is estimated to be about 10^13 watts of baseload power generation, according to some experts." http://www.nrel.gov/otec/what.html

The only problem is efficiency since the temperature difference is pretty small even in the best regions. Current plants operate at ~2% thermal efficiency and the theoretical max is 6-7% based on a reversible power cycle (no losses). Still insane amounts of potential though!

[AAFitz]

Reality. As is Marlboro lights. They make you thinner, and don't cause cancer.

[PLAYER57832]

How about OTEC (Ocean Temp Energy Converison)

It takes advantage of the temperature difference between surface water near the equator and the cold water below using the Rankine cycle. Contains MUCH more potential energy than tidal energy production could ever create. In fact "This potential is estimated to be about 10^13 watts of baseload power generation, according to some experts." http://www.nrel.gov/otec/what.html

The only problem is efficiency since the temperature difference is pretty small even in the best regions. Current plants operate at ~2% thermal efficiency and the theoretical max is 6-7% based on a reversible power cycle (no losses). Still insane amounts of potential though!

I don't know much about this, but it sounds interesting.

It reminded me of something similar I do know about.. heat pumps and geothermal heat.

Right now, you can get enough wells and so forth to heat a "normal size" house (I cannot remember the square footages, sorry, but a basic single -level 3 bedroom home on a double lot) for around $15,000 (in our area), even allowing for extra wells for expansion potential. (that is, the cost of bringing the drilling equipment is high and the cost of actually drilling low, so you want to drill extra as long as they are there... just in case). For that, you can have a system that will heat AND cool your house, year round, just for the electricity needed to run a small circulation pump.

[PLAYER57832]

It really IS as basic as knowing verbs, knowing how to add and subtract, or should be!

No, it is not. It is not as basic as knowing how to speak or knowing how to perform simple math. It's not. Sorry. I know you want it to be, but it's not.

We'll have to agree to disagree there. Anything that critical to human life needs to be fundamental. I don't mean all the technical details, I mean just the basic idea that tides have a huge impact on our life here and a tiny, tiny bit about why.

Actually, I can, particularly when you bring it back as loosely as the knowledge I feel should be general regarding natural resources. See, even if I don't know exactly which issues the PA courts are deciding right now, I DO know how our court system works, I DO know a fair amount about taxes (and definitely have VERY intimate knowledge of any taxes that impact me, my community, directly). Ironically enough, you prove my point quite well.

In fact, the average person, learns far more about how our government works than they do about how their lawn works... never mind the stream down the road OR, the tides.

I don't think you know how our court system works. That's why people need attorneys. I don't know how tidal forces work, that's why I asked the question.

Well.. try me.

I do not think you know about taxes, except those that impact you. I don't know how tidal forces work because they don't affect me (now, I know your initial response will be "but don't you see greek, tidal forces affect us all..." that's fine, but let's be realistic... I have a lot more to worry about than whether the New Jersey tides are going to affect me).

Pretty much all taxes affect me, and that is part of the point. And, as I just illustrated, worrying about how Jersey tides are going to effect you is as important as understanding taxes. The problem is that you don't know enough to know that is true. and that is not your fault, it is the fault of the educational system. The educational system can look to elitist scientific establishment and arrogance, along with cut funding and so forth.

See, the only real knowledge I would expect "every citizen" (those with brains, anyway...) to know is plain and simply that everything on the coast, the entire ecology, issues with houses, even the weather, all are impacted or impact the tides. I would expect you to know that the vegetation in all such transition zones are "ecologically fragile", that is adapted to a specific system and likely damaged by change. I would expect you to know that that will impact the fish, the food on your table (beyond fish), the stuff that goes down your drain, the air you breath and the chances of your getting a house on the beach, the general economy. I would not necesarily expect you to know exactly how all that works, definitely not in detail.

In government, similarly, I expect people to know generally how government works and where to go to get additional information when needed. (i.e. when to get a lawyer, or accountant, etc.) People more or less do get that about government, but know even less than I described about the world around.... and it is a big reason why we have the problems we have today.

People cannot hope to correct problems they don't know exist.

The average person doesn't even vote, much less know how our government works.

They don't vote, but they do at least know how to vote and what voting is about. Most people don't actually know anything at all about where water goes once it leaves their property, down the drain, etc.

Don't even get me started on that one. C'mon, you're being completely unrealistic here.

Maybe so, but I gotta be. The cost of continuing as we are is just too great.

The bottom line is that if I want to know about tidal forces, I'll ask. Which I've done. That's really all a non-scientist should be expected to do. That's the reasonable thing to do. I've done it.

Again, I am in no way attacking you. But the thing is, you really did not know to ask until I made the statement that we needed to consider wider impacts. Even when I said that, you came back with "but I wasn't talking about...." and I had to say "oh, but you were, and here's why". Now, as I said, you are obviously above average and no, I am not suggesting that you need to be an expert on tides (I'm not one, by-the-way). I am using you, a very educated and informed person, as a prime example of why so many problems are happening, are not being fixed.

I am also, indirectly, getting at part of why there is such a divide in your and my belief systems.

If you want to know about taxes that don't affect you, you ask someone who is knowledgeable about those things.

Here, you are operating under a false assumption. See, I do taxes on the side, have lived in many states....

anyway, I do know more than a bit about taxes. But yes, I get your point. and I disagree, still.

[thegreekdog]

Okay, Player... here is your quiz. I trust you not to look these up:

(1) What is the highest court in Pennsylvania called?
(2) True or False: The United States Supreme Court takes all appeals.
(3) If you have a tax problem in Pennsylvania, where is the first place you go?
(4) Name the three appeals courts in Pennsylvania (one is number 1).
(5) True or False: Not snoveling show from the top of your car is a crime.
(6) True or False: If you are indicted for assault, you hit someone.

Bonus PA Government Round

Who are the two US senators from Pennsylvania and what are their party affiliations?

EDIT - I'm going to drop the other argument because we are going to agree to disagree. I don't think tidal force knowledge is vital to my daily life.

[PLAYER57832]

Okay, Player... here is your quiz. I trust you not to look these up:

(1) What is the highest court in Pennsylvania called?
(2) True or False: The United States Supreme Court takes all appeals.
(3) If you have a tax problem in Pennsylvania, where is the first place you go?
(4) Name the three appeals courts in Pennsylvania (one is number 1).
(5) True or False: Not snoveling show from the top of your car is a crime.
(6) True or False: If you are indicted for assault, you hit someone.

Bonus PA Government Round

Who are the two US senators from Pennsylvania and what are their party affiliations?

EDIT - I'm going to drop the other argument because we are going to agree to disagree. I don't think tidal force knowledge is vital to my daily life.

I am answering via pm, but here is the deal.
First off, those are far more specific than the knowledge I think people should have of the natural world. A far closer analogy would be to just know that we have a Supreme court and state courts. All I said I thought you should know is just that tides impact our coasts phenomenally and therefore anything that might change them needs to be very, very carefully thought out. Yes, knowing that tides and waves bring beaches and erode them both is important to anyone living anywhere near the coast and anyone who has dealings with the coast -- pretty much anyone in New Jersey, yes.

Second, if anything, knowing how important tides are is probably more critical than knowing how the Supreme court functions because the tides do impact each and every one of us, and things we do every day impact the tides (as well as the entire Chesapeak bay system, but that's another subject). There is little chance that anything you (assuming you are not involved with the Supreme court.. from what you said, I believe it is lower courts) or I will do to impact or change the Supreme court. yes, we can vote (etc) . However, as important and far-reaching as that is, the impact is relatively short compared to the potential impact just one person can and often does have on the marshes.

[thegreekdog]

Grrr...

All I said I thought you should know is just that tides impact our coasts phenomenally and therefore anything that might change them needs to be very, very carefully thought out. Yes, knowing that tides and waves bring beaches and erode them both is important to anyone living anywhere near the coast and anyone who has dealings with the coast -- pretty much anyone in New Jersey, yes.

THAT'S WHY I ASKED THE QUESTION!!! I know that tides erode the beaches. I know that the beaches in New Jersey are constantly being eroded. I was wondering whether humanity could substantially change the way tides are. You answered my question (I think... I don't even remember the answer). Why is this an issue?

Second, if anything, knowing how important tides are is probably more critical than knowing how the Supreme court functions because the tides do impact each and every one of us, and things we do every day impact the tides (as well as the entire Chesapeak bay system, but that's another subject). There is little chance that anything you (assuming you are not involved with the Supreme court.. from what you said, I believe it is lower courts) or I will do to impact or change the Supreme court. yes, we can vote (etc) . However, as important and far-reaching as that is, the impact is relatively short compared to the potential impact just one person can and often does have on the marshes.

The United State Supreme Court, the state courts, the lower federal courts, have a significant impact on your daily life. Much more significant an impact than whether the harnessing of tidal power will affect tides; especially since there aren't a whole lot of tidal power plants in the US. Are marshes more important? I don't know, that's not what we're arguing about.

[sully800]

On the topic of energy: Did you know that the Three Gorges Dams produces as much energy as 15,000 typical (1.5MW) wind turbines? Pretty amazing!

Also interesting is that the resevoir is so massive it has changed the speed of the earth's rotation a small fraction of a second (though not nearly as much as large earthquakes, such as the Chile quake which shifted enough rock to make days ~1.3 microseconds shorter than they used to be).

[muy_thaiguy]

On the topic of energy: Did you know that the Three Gorges Dams produces as much energy as 15,000 typical (1.5MW) wind turbines? Pretty amazing!

Also interesting is that the resevoir is so massive it has changed the speed of the earth's rotation a small fraction of a second (though not nearly as much as large earthquakes, such as the Chile quake which shifted enough rock to make days ~1.3 microseconds shorter than they used to be).

Wow, I'm going to bed 1.3 mircro seconds earlir!