Something to clear up.

[pimpdave]

Oh, and I am not a snake.

That IS a snake. I'd never looked closely at your avi, and for whatever reason thought "you" were aiming a pistol or something at the camera. I'll be darned.

He's commanding it.

[thegreekdog]

I'm also Pericles. I've been reincarnated as thegreekdog.

[spurgistan]

"I dreamed I saw Spurgistan last night."

[multilis]

"Bush was for a lack of a better word, a scumbag. I like Obama for his ability to be straight foward and to the point. "

I don't see a big difference between any of them. Obama is pretty much doing the same policies as Bush, when it comes to war, spending, etc, with a few *minor* differences in details. Clinton before Bush bombed Iraq for WMD (1998), and some blamed Clinton era sanctions on iraq for deaths of hundreds of thousands of kids.

On top of that Obama *blames* Bush even when he does *same thing* as Bush and Bush had similar situation when he took office. Eg Deficit is Bush's fault, when Obama spends as much, Bush also inherited a bubble bust (dot com), and laws passed to help create the housing crisis were passed in Clinton and Carter eras. (Obama now talks of reversing changes done by Clinton in his new tough talk on banks, hasn't yet mentioned the Carter era forcing loans for everyone law)

Obama speech when recieving Nobel peace prize covered same ideas Bush did. Obama got peace prize for doing very similar to Bush during first year (Bush did arms reduction with russians in early first term).

Obama and Bush both worked on a dream of Ted Kennedy, Bush "no child left behind" and Obama "universal health care".

Obama fights wars same style, eg surge in Afghanistan, Hillary defending missile drones killing militants in Pakistan. US efforts with Iran seem almost identical to Bush era now.

Obama still uses military tribunals at times.

Health care reforms by Obama seem to so far ignore the personal injury lawyers and huge settlements, likely because their party has more of the rich personal injury lawyers such as John Edwards. These drive up heath care costs by forcing every doctor to have expensive insurance, helping making it unaffordable for the poor.

The small differences are debatable, eg Obama holds US trial for 9-11 mastermind, and he and allies immediately publicly say things like "when found guilty" and "failure (not convicting) is not an option" before jury is picked... is that fairer trial?

The terrorist scare this christmas was partially driven by former inmates of that "evil" cuban base prison. Also been reported how a fair number of inmates in US prison US learned radical islam from other inmates. What happens if an attack succeeds killing 1000+ people from an inmate released from Cuba, recruited in US prison by someone transfered there, or found not guilty due to lack of admissible evidence? Will Bush be remembered better?

In Canada PM Mulroney was villified most for bringing in a national sales tax, by the other party, his approval ratings went low as Bush in US, and yet now 20 years later the other party (which 20 years earlier treated tax as ultimate evil) is strongly defending that sales tax, arguing against cuts to it.

How is Obama so different than Bush or Clinton, how is Bush scumbag in action? (Media spin and presumptions of motives don't count imo)

[Gregrios]

This thread believe or not, wasn't intended for a Obama vs Bush debate but since it's sort of gone that way, I'll respond simply by saying what I said a day ago. I could be wrong, but I'm still giving him until the end of his term. Afterall I gave Bush 8 years to prove himself so it's only fair that I give Obama at least 4.

[multilis]

... I'm still giving him until the end of his term...

In my opinion a statement that X is scumbag and Y may be much better without giving *a single reason why* is worse than useless.

Internet is full of web sites and threads dedictated to the evil of one or more of Clinton, Bush, Cheney, Palin, or Obama without any real logic. You can take 1930s propoganda from National Socialist German Workers Party, and cut paste a few words like US for German and Republican/Liberal for Banker Jew and get the same.

Hitler had valid points in his famous "My Struggle" book (eg France working to split up rival Germany), but that did *not* make him right.

What scares me is the dumbing down of media to partisan propoganda for one side or the other and the public liking it that way, Moore would have made less movie money if he also mentioned Clinton bombing iraq for WMD. (Bush with mushroom cloud/nuke in background, claim of Bush's goal to conquer world, be dictator, war only for oil, cancel elections, etc).

[Gregrios]

I won't bother responding so that you can assume that I have no answer and then you can feel like you've won because I'm a nice guy like that.