"Things liberals are responsible for"

[rockfist]

The concept of long term social spending programs that exsist in near perpetuity since its worth more to fight like hell to the keep the benefits to the group receiving it but a mild nuiciance to the rest of society. Then create another program for another group. Rinse and repeat.

The idea that it is justifiable to use the threat of force (imprisonment) to obtain resources (taxes) for people who did nothing to earn them (social security, medicare, medicaid, welfare).

The breakdown of traditional families that has occured in the last 40 years. Families used to take care of their elderly members - now its easier to use Medicare and Social Security to stick granny in a home. Fathers used to take care of their children now public assistance can do that.

The idea that nationalism or being proud of your ethnicity is bigotry.

The idea that criminals such as child molesters can be "rehabilitated" and deserve a chance to rejoin society. The idea that we should try to understand the reasons people do things like molest children or blow up buildings and that our reaction should depend opon the reason they did it.

The idea that wiretapping suspected terrorists is an invasion of your rights but taxation for transfer payments isn't.

The idea that gun control laws keep guns out of the hands of criminals.

The idea that the use of the term "God" is offensive.

The idea that everyone is equally capable of doing things like driving a car. The idea that equality of everything is a desirable outcome.

The idea that the concept of abortion is one of the most important issues facing our country today.

The idea that its ok to pass a 1000 page spending bill before it is written.

The idea that we should spend more money educating the dumbest 10% of our young people than we do on educating the other 90%.

The concept that they should be judged not by the results of their laws or programs, but by what their intentions were when they passed them.

Those are just a few of their best ideas or actions that come to mind. I am sure I could think of more if I took the time.

[Frigidus]

The concept of long term social spending programs that exsist in near perpetuity since its worth more to fight like hell to the keep the benefits to the group receiving it but a mild nuiciance to the rest of society. Then create another program for another group. Rinse and repeat.

The idea that it is justifiable to use the threat of force (imprisonment) to obtain resources (taxes) for people who did nothing to earn them (social security, medicare, medicaid, welfare).

The breakdown of traditional families that has occured in the last 40 years. Families used to take care of their elderly members - now its easier to use Medicare and Social Security to stick granny in a home. Fathers used to take care of their children now public assistance can do that.

The idea that nationalism or being proud of your ethnicity is bigotry.

The idea that criminals such as child molesters can be "rehabilitated" and deserve a chance to rejoin society. The idea that we should try to understand the reasons people do things like molest children or blow up buildings and that our reaction should depend opon the reason they did it.

The idea that wiretapping suspected terrorists is an invasion of your rights but taxation for transfer payments isn't.

The idea that gun control laws keep guns out of the hands of criminals.

The idea that the use of the term "God" is offensive.

The idea that everyone is equally capable of doing things like driving a car. The idea that equality of everything is a desirable outcome.

The idea that the concept of abortion is one of the most important issues facing our country today.

The idea that its ok to pass a 1000 page spending bill before it is written.

The idea that we should spend more money educating the dumbest 10% of our young people than we do on educating the other 90%.

The concept that they should be judged not by the results of their laws or programs, but by what their intentions were when they passed them.

Those are just a few of their best ideas or actions that come to mind. I am sure I could think of more if I took the time.

Hey, HEY! Why are you on topic? We're on a Civil War tangent. Anyways, there are a few issues here (mercifully I'm going to avoid the social programs part, as we've been arguing about that shit way too much recently). I'm going to skip some as I feel that some of it has been argued to death.

Fathers used to take care of their children now public assistance can do that.

Considering that adulthood has been pushed further and further back to the necessity of education past high school, the trend is actually that kids often don't fly the coop until their mid-20s. This hardly meshes with what you're asserting. Then again, considering that you're only referring to fathers (I'm going to take the liberty to infer your meaning here, let me know if I'm off base), you're referring to the trend that fathers in a poor family abandon their wife and child. If that's the case, I'm not sure how you can blame liberals for the individual choices of poor parents (poor families have tended to have somewhat "unusual" family lives for quite some time anyways).

The idea that nationalism or being proud of your ethnicity is bigotry.

Just a couple of days ago one of the local CC conservatives was complaining about people prefacing their nationality with a descriptor (e.g. African-American, Mexican-American, Irish-American). Indeed, I rarely hear complaints of that nature from liberals. Haven't we (I arrogantly speak for all liberals here) always touted America as a cultural melting pot? Or, more recently, a cultural tossed salad?

The idea that wiretapping suspected terrorists is an invasion of your rights but taxation for transfer payments isn't.

The issue hasn't been about wiretapping suspected terrorists. Legitimately getting a warrant and wiretapping suspects has always been OK. The issue is allowing the government to basically choose who they wiretap and why with barely any oversight. That's kind of a legitimate concern.

The idea that gun control laws keep guns out of the hands of criminals.

The idea that everyone is equally capable of doing things like driving a car.

So you feel that every random dude should be able to own and operate their personal bangy kill-stick, but moving fast is too risky? I'm not even sure what you're referring to about the car thing. Stupid drivers or something? What does this have to do with liberals again?

The idea that the concept of abortion is one of the most important issues facing our country today.

Lol wut. Maybe this is just me, but all the noise I've heard is from those who are against abortion. How about the shitstorm in the writing of the health care bill recently over whether it was OK to provide funding for abortions? If it hadn't been removed the bill would have died on the spot. Plus, abortion is already legal. The fact that it is still being debated surely isn't coming from the side who has already gotten their way.

The idea that its ok to pass a 1000 page spending bill before it is written.

I'm not sure it's possible to have 1000 pages that aren't written. Or do you mean that it's bad to support a bill before the final edition is put forth? Is that any worse then opposing a bill before it's finalized? I'm for health care reform and the bill is an attempt at that. Although, now that the public option is fading it ceases to serve a point, I'd still like to see some sort of legislation pass. Maybe something like "Hitherto kicking the shit out of Health Insurance CEOs is OK". You know, just acknowledge that our current system is based on taking as much money from healthy people and giving as little to sick people as possible. That's all I ask. I lost track of my point, so I'll just go with NO U.

The idea that we should spend more money educating the dumbest 10% of our young people than we do on educating the other 90%.

Quite the opposite. Basing the education system off local taxes has made it so that the rich get the best education and the poor get the worst. Any attempts made to help out the less educated are only (pretty damn weak) attempts to provide equal opportunity.

[BigBallinStalin]

Thank you, sir, for your decades of hard work and excellent films.

[Snorri1234]

The idea that gun control laws keep guns out of the hands of criminals.

The idea that everyone is equally capable of doing things like driving a car.

So you feel that every random dude should be able to own and operate their personal bangy kill-stick, but moving fast is too risky? I'm not even sure what you're referring to about the car thing. Stupid drivers or something? What does this have to do with liberals again?

Clearly the liberals are regulating too much/not regulating enough.

[thegreekdog]

The idea that gun control laws keep guns out of the hands of criminals.

The idea that everyone is equally capable of doing things like driving a car.

So you feel that every random dude should be able to own and operate their personal bangy kill-stick, but moving fast is too risky? I'm not even sure what you're referring to about the car thing. Stupid drivers or something? What does this have to do with liberals again?

Clearly the liberals are regulating too much/not regulating enough.

I don't think you guys understand the concept of gun ownership as compared to the concept of drivers licenses. People that are unable to operate a motor vehicle are not going to be permitted to own a gun, though they may be permitted to drive a car.

[Frigidus]

People that are unable to operate a motor vehicle are not going to be permitted to own a gun

I'm not sure that that's the case.

though they may be permitted to drive a car.

I'm almost positive that that isn't the case. I'm sure there are some places where they practically hand out licenses, but I remember that when I got mine they were obscenely picky about the way you drove. They made sure you knew what you were doing.

[thegreekdog]

People that are unable to operate a motor vehicle are not going to be permitted to own a gun

I'm not sure that that's the case.

though they may be permitted to drive a car.

I'm almost positive that that isn't the case. I'm sure there are some places where they practically hand out licenses, but I remember that when I got mine they were obscenely picky about the way you drove. They made sure you knew what you were doing.

My grandfather has a license. I'm pretty sure he got his driver's license in the 1940s and has not been tested since.

[pimpdave]

I like guns.

[Baron Von PWN]

The breakdown of traditional families that has occured in the last 40 years. Families used to take care of their elderly members - now its easier to use Medicare and Social Security to stick granny in a home. Fathers used to take care of their children now public assistance can do that.

The concept that they should be judged not by the results of their laws or programs, but by what their intentions were when they passed them.

Which "traditional" family are you talking about? The most traditional family is the one on the farm with 8+ kids. The "traditional" family has gone away with modernity, not due to any liberal policy, other than perhaps womens suffrage.

Your second one is curious. Have crime rates decreased with more severe penalties? Has drug use decraesed due to the war on drugs? This isin't a liberal or conservative problem.

[Snorri1234]

The most traditional family is the one on the farm with 8+ kids. T

Actually about 16 if you include the ones who died at a really early age.

[Woodruff]

The idea that it is justifiable to use the threat of force (imprisonment) to obtain resources (taxes) for people who did nothing to earn them (social security, medicare, medicaid, welfare).

That you would include Social Security in this group tells me you're not interested in serious discourse. But, I'm bored, so...

The idea that nationalism or being proud of your ethnicity is bigotry.

Who told you that?

The idea that criminals such as child molesters can be "rehabilitated" and deserve a chance to rejoin society. The idea that we should try to understand the reasons people do things like molest children or blow up buildings and that our reaction should depend opon the reason they did it.

That's called civilization. I'm sorry you don't want to be a part of it.

The idea that wiretapping suspected terrorists is an invasion of your rights but taxation for transfer payments isn't.

Actually, wiretapping is perfectly legal IF IT'S ACCOMPLISHED LEGALLY, WHICH IS VERY EASY TO DO.

The idea that gun control laws keep guns out of the hands of criminals.

Is our lack of gun control laws keeping guns out of the hands of criminals?

The idea that the use of the term "God" is offensive.

Where did you hear that?

The idea that everyone is equally capable of doing things like driving a car.

Uh...what?

The idea that the concept of abortion is one of the most important issues facing our country today.

The amount of public discourse on the subject says that it is. However, since you don't consider it a very important issue, I take it that you're perfectly happy with just making wholesale abortion legal? That's ok with you?

The idea that its ok to pass a 1000 page spending bill before it is written.

If ONLY that were ONLY a liberal problem. At least then, half the problem would be solved.

The idea that we should spend more money educating the dumbest 10% of our young people than we do on educating the other 90%.

Where did you hear that?

The concept that they should be judged not by the results of their laws or programs, but by what their intentions were when they passed them.

Who is they?

Those are just a few of their best ideas or actions that come to mind. I am sure I could think of more if I took the time.

Perhaps if you took some time, you could come up with something that actually held water. Give it a try next time!

[Army of GOD]

OH NOES! A CAVE TROLL!

[Woodruff]

The idea that nationalism or being proud of your ethnicity is bigotry.

Just a couple of days ago one of the local CC conservatives was complaining about people prefacing their nationality with a descriptor (e.g. African-American, Mexican-American, Irish-American). Indeed, I rarely hear complaints of that nature from liberals. Haven't we (I arrogantly speak for all liberals here) always touted America as a cultural melting pot? Or, more recently, a cultural tossed salad?

Erm...are you saying we're a bunch of salad-tossers? <laughing>

The idea that we should spend more money educating the dumbest 10% of our young people than we do on educating the other 90%.

Quite the opposite. Basing the education system off local taxes has made it so that the rich get the best education and the poor get the worst. Any attempts made to help out the less educated are only (pretty damn weak) attempts to provide equal opportunity.

And I believe you're speaking with a fine example of the second.

[natty dread]

Populating the antarctic.

[pimpdave]

Populating the antarctic.

[rockfist]

The idea that it is justifiable to use the threat of force (imprisonment) to obtain resources (taxes) for people who did nothing to earn them (social security, medicare, medicaid, welfare).

That you would include Social Security in this group tells me you're not interested in serious discourse. But, I'm bored, so...

Social security is a transfer payment program, to take from the young and give to the old. Its a ponzi scheme of the highest magnetitude because people pay into it far less than they draw out and my generation and my childrens generations are going to be left holding the bag for it. Benefits need to be cut for it to be viable in the long term - period. If you are ok with younger generations getting nothing - then I have a pitch fork for you.

The idea that nationalism or being proud of your ethnicity is bigotry.

Who told you that?

The idea that criminals such as child molesters can be "rehabilitated" and deserve a chance to rejoin society. The idea that we should try to understand the reasons people do things like molest children or blow up buildings and that our reaction should depend opon the reason they did it.

That's called civilization. I'm sorry you don't want to be a part of it.

No its called STUPID liberal bullshit. Some people are beyond hope and a threat to all others if they are allowed to continue. They should be dealt with accordingly.

The idea that wiretapping suspected terrorists is an invasion of your rights but taxation for transfer payments isn't.

Actually, wiretapping is perfectly legal IF IT'S ACCOMPLISHED LEGALLY, WHICH IS VERY EASY TO DO.

There are laws and there is right and wrong. Although they sometimes align they often don't. If your not plotting to kill people what do you have to fear. If the US was a fascist nation under Bush, do you really think you wouldn't have gotten rounded up?

The idea that gun control laws keep guns out of the hands of criminals.

Is our lack of gun control laws keeping guns out of the hands of criminals?

This isn't even a response.

The idea that the use of the term "God" is offensive.

Where did you hear that?

From the ACLU.

The idea that everyone is equally capable of doing things like driving a car.

Uh...what?

Giving everyone a driver's license means you have to have lower speed limits since you are giving some very marginal drivers the right to drive.

The idea that the concept of abortion is one of the most important issues facing our country today.

The amount of public discourse on the subject says that it is. However, since you don't consider it a very important issue, I take it that you're perfectly happy with just making wholesale abortion legal? That's ok with you?

As long as I don't have to pay for it. I'm marginally against it but I would trade legal abortion for doing away with one of the so called "entitlements."

The idea that its ok to pass a 1000 page spending bill before it is written.

If ONLY that were ONLY a liberal problem. At least then, half the problem would be solved. Actually less than 25% of the people identify themselves as liberals, perhaps because liberals pass bills like this.

The idea that we should spend more money educating the dumbest 10% of our young people than we do on educating the other 90%.

Where did you hear that?

The concept that they should be judged not by the results of their laws or programs, but by what their intentions were when they passed them.

Who is they?

Liberals and other people who think they can fix everything by legislation.

Those are just a few of their best ideas or actions that come to mind. I am sure I could think of more if I took the time.

Perhaps if you took some time, you could come up with something that actually held water. Give it a try next time!

[rockfist]

The idea that nationalism or being proud of your ethnicity is bigotry.

Just a couple of days ago one of the local CC conservatives was complaining about people prefacing their nationality with a descriptor (e.g. African-American, Mexican-American, Irish-American). Indeed, I rarely hear complaints of that nature from liberals. Haven't we (I arrogantly speak for all liberals here) always touted America as a cultural melting pot? Or, more recently, a cultural tossed salad?

Erm...are you saying we're a bunch of salad-tossers? <laughing>

The idea that we should spend more money educating the dumbest 10% of our young people than we do on educating the other 90%.

Quite the opposite. Basing the education system off local taxes has made it so that the rich get the best education and the poor get the worst. Any attempts made to help out the less educated are only (pretty damn weak) attempts to provide equal opportunity.

And I believe you're speaking with a fine example of the second.

You are equating children from poorer areas with lower intelligence, which is a very unliberal thing to do - and I don't agree with it.

That's not what I am getting at. I am getting at the fact that because of federal mandates we have to educate every child - including children with hopelessly low IQ's. But the Liberals went further than that. If you have a 20 to 1 child to teacher ratio for normal children and that won't allow the intellectually challenged (to be PC) to learn at an acceptable rate then you have to have a much lower ratio of child to teachers for them sometimes 2 to 1 or even 1 to 1. Does this make any ecomonic sense? No.

I'd give some of my money to educate gifted students from poorer areas. Although I wasn't poor, I grew up in a poorer area and I sponser a college scholarship for that. I 'm not completely heartless, I think children deserve a chance if they show promise. Adults should fend for themselves.

Spending all that money on intellectually challenged people is like trying to cook the perfect hamburger - worth it if you have the time,money, and patience to do it, but it will never beat a good (not perfect) steak.

[Timminz]

The idea that nationalism or being proud of your ethnicity is bigotry.

Just a couple of days ago one of the local CC conservatives was complaining about people prefacing their nationality with a descriptor (e.g. African-American, Mexican-American, Irish-American). Indeed, I rarely hear complaints of that nature from liberals. Haven't we (I arrogantly speak for all liberals here) always touted America as a cultural melting pot? Or, more recently, a cultural tossed salad?

Erm...are you saying we're a bunch of salad-tossers? <laughing>

The idea that we should spend more money educating the dumbest 10% of our young people than we do on educating the other 90%.

Quite the opposite. Basing the education system off local taxes has made it so that the rich get the best education and the poor get the worst. Any attempts made to help out the less educated are only (pretty damn weak) attempts to provide equal opportunity.

And I believe you're speaking with a fine example of the second.

You are equating children from poorer areas with lower intelligence, which is a very unliberal thing to do - and I don't agree with it.

No he didn't. He said that wealthier areas have more money to spend on education, and therefore tend to get better results.

[Woodruff]

Populating the antarctic.

TMMLOL - love the pic!

[Phatscotty]

The idea that nationalism or being proud of your ethnicity is bigotry.

Just a couple of days ago one of the local CC conservatives was complaining about people prefacing their nationality with a descriptor (e.g. African-American, Mexican-American, Irish-American). Indeed, I rarely hear complaints of that nature from liberals. Haven't we (I arrogantly speak for all liberals here) always touted America as a cultural melting pot? Or, more recently, a cultural tossed salad?

Erm...are you saying we're a bunch of salad-tossers? <laughing>

The idea that we should spend more money educating the dumbest 10% of our young people than we do on educating the other 90%.

Quite the opposite. Basing the education system off local taxes has made it so that the rich get the best education and the poor get the worst. Any attempts made to help out the less educated are only (pretty damn weak) attempts to provide equal opportunity.

And I believe you're speaking with a fine example of the second.

You are equating children from poorer areas with lower intelligence, which is a very unliberal thing to do - and I don't agree with it.

No he didn't. He said that wealthier areas have more money to spend on education, and therefore tend to get better results.

What about starting with the person. The child must volitionally choose to learn, and understand why it's important to learn, and it's the parents job to see to that. To me, Problem #1. starts waaaaay before "how much money do we spend on education". In fact, I would bet the simple fact that the adults know how large the amount is being spent on education, and it gives them a sense of comfort, and frees them up to handle other things in their lives.

[TeletubbyPrince]

The idea that it is justifiable to use the threat of force (imprisonment) to obtain resources (taxes) for people who did nothing to earn them (social security, medicare, medicaid, welfare).

That you would include Social Security in this group tells me you're not interested in serious discourse. But, I'm bored, so...

Social security is a transfer payment program, to take from the young and give to the old. Its a ponzi scheme of the highest magnetitude because people pay into it far less than they draw out and my generation and my childrens generations are going to be left holding the bag for it. Benefits need to be cut for it to be viable in the long term - period. If you are ok with younger generations getting nothing - then I have a pitch fork for you.

The idea that nationalism or being proud of your ethnicity is bigotry.

Who told you that?

The idea that criminals such as child molesters can be "rehabilitated" and deserve a chance to rejoin society. The idea that we should try to understand the reasons people do things like molest children or blow up buildings and that our reaction should depend opon the reason they did it.

That's called civilization. I'm sorry you don't want to be a part of it.

No its called STUPID liberal bullshit. Some people are beyond hope and a threat to all others if they are allowed to continue. They should be dealt with accordingly.

The idea that wiretapping suspected terrorists is an invasion of your rights but taxation for transfer payments isn't.

Actually, wiretapping is perfectly legal IF IT'S ACCOMPLISHED LEGALLY, WHICH IS VERY EASY TO DO.

There are laws and there is right and wrong. Although they sometimes align they often don't. If your not plotting to kill people what do you have to fear. If the US was a fascist nation under Bush, do you really think you wouldn't have gotten rounded up?

The idea that gun control laws keep guns out of the hands of criminals.

Is our lack of gun control laws keeping guns out of the hands of criminals?

This isn't even a response.

The idea that the use of the term "God" is offensive.

Where did you hear that?

From the ACLU.

The idea that everyone is equally capable of doing things like driving a car.

Uh...what?

Giving everyone a driver's license means you have to have lower speed limits since you are giving some very marginal drivers the right to drive.

The idea that the concept of abortion is one of the most important issues facing our country today.

The amount of public discourse on the subject says that it is. However, since you don't consider it a very important issue, I take it that you're perfectly happy with just making wholesale abortion legal? That's ok with you?

As long as I don't have to pay for it. I'm marginally against it but I would trade legal abortion for doing away with one of the so called "entitlements."

The idea that its ok to pass a 1000 page spending bill before it is written.

If ONLY that were ONLY a liberal problem. At least then, half the problem would be solved. Actually less than 25% of the people identify themselves as liberals, perhaps because liberals pass bills like this.

The idea that we should spend more money educating the dumbest 10% of our young people than we do on educating the other 90%.

Where did you hear that?

The concept that they should be judged not by the results of their laws or programs, but by what their intentions were when they passed them.

Who is they?

Liberals and other people who think they can fix everything by legislation.

Those are just a few of their best ideas or actions that come to mind. I am sure I could think of more if I took the time.

Perhaps if you took some time, you could come up with something that actually held water. Give it a try next time!

I love how retards don't know how to quote properly

[MeDeFe]

The idea that it is justifiable to use the threat of force (imprisonment) to obtain resources (taxes) for people who did nothing to earn them (social security, medicare, medicaid, welfare).

That you would include Social Security in this group tells me you're not interested in serious discourse. But, I'm bored, so...

Social security is a transfer payment program, to take from the young and give to the old. Its a ponzi scheme of the highest magnetitude because people pay into it far less than they draw out and my generation and my childrens generations are going to be left holding the bag for it. Benefits need to be cut for it to be viable in the long term - period. If you are ok with younger generations getting nothing - then I have a pitch fork for you.

The idea that nationalism or being proud of your ethnicity is bigotry.

Who told you that?

The idea that criminals such as child molesters can be "rehabilitated" and deserve a chance to rejoin society. The idea that we should try to understand the reasons people do things like molest children or blow up buildings and that our reaction should depend opon the reason they did it.

That's called civilization. I'm sorry you don't want to be a part of it.

No its called STUPID liberal bullshit. Some people are beyond hope and a threat to all others if they are allowed to continue. They should be dealt with accordingly.

The idea that wiretapping suspected terrorists is an invasion of your rights but taxation for transfer payments isn't.

Actually, wiretapping is perfectly legal IF IT'S ACCOMPLISHED LEGALLY, WHICH IS VERY EASY TO DO.

There are laws and there is right and wrong. Although they sometimes align they often don't. If your not plotting to kill people what do you have to fear. If the US was a fascist nation under Bush, do you really think you wouldn't have gotten rounded up?

The idea that gun control laws keep guns out of the hands of criminals.

Is our lack of gun control laws keeping guns out of the hands of criminals?

This isn't even a response.

The idea that the use of the term "God" is offensive.

Where did you hear that?

From the ACLU.

The idea that everyone is equally capable of doing things like driving a car.

Uh...what?

Giving everyone a driver's license means you have to have lower speed limits since you are giving some very marginal drivers the right to drive.

The idea that the concept of abortion is one of the most important issues facing our country today.

The amount of public discourse on the subject says that it is. However, since you don't consider it a very important issue, I take it that you're perfectly happy with just making wholesale abortion legal? That's ok with you?

As long as I don't have to pay for it. I'm marginally against it but I would trade legal abortion for doing away with one of the so called "entitlements."

The idea that its ok to pass a 1000 page spending bill before it is written.

If ONLY that were ONLY a liberal problem. At least then, half the problem would be solved. Actually less than 25% of the people identify themselves as liberals, perhaps because liberals pass bills like this.

The idea that we should spend more money educating the dumbest 10% of our young people than we do on educating the other 90%.

Where did you hear that?

The concept that they should be judged not by the results of their laws or programs, but by what their intentions were when they passed them.

Who is they?

Liberals and other people who think they can fix everything by legislation.

Those are just a few of their best ideas or actions that come to mind. I am sure I could think of more if I took the time.

Perhaps if you took some time, you could come up with something that actually held water. Give it a try next time!

I love how retards don't know how to quote properly

I hate it because I try to read the improperly quoted posts.

[jay_a2j]

rockfist, it is a futile attempt to try to "reform" a liberal. It can't be done. They don't think like the rest of us. They lack things like common sense. I speak from many years of experience. It's hopeless.

[Timminz]

rockfist, it is a futile attempt to try to "reform" a liberal. It can't be done. They don't think like the rest of us. They lack things like common sense. I speak from many years of experience. It's hopeless.

"Years of experience", eh? Have you ever considered that it might not be the cause that's hopeless, but you? I honestly feel bad for the conservatives with the ability to reason with people logically, who have to put up with nutbars like you claiming to represent their interests. Not all that bad though. I'm always up for a good laugh.

[Skittles!]

rockfist, it is a futile attempt to try to "reform" a liberal. It can't be done. They don't think like the rest of us. They lack things like common sense. I speak from many years of experience. It's hopeless.

Lol.