Logic dictates that there is a God!

[flashleg8]

They won 11 of the 18 state athletic championships last year, just because they recruit playes from all over. It really PISSES ME OFF!

Cracks me up that the Catholic Church isn't above cheating to win!!

[DIRESTRAITS]

I have no idea whats taught at Catholic Schools, because I go to Public. Im not a frickin Jesbian

Sorry! It's just that Catholic schools are very common where I live (Scotland), they are mainstream and state funded. Most Catholics here would attend a Catholic school - not just the devote people. They would teach the Scottish syllabus (thus secular) while retaining their faith for assemblies/school services etc. Just wondered if it was similar in the States.

No, it is not common to go to a Catholic school in the States. Jesbian refers to the name given to kids who go to Jesuit, the local Catholic school that recruits atheletes so it never loses a game of anything

[jay_a2j]

This is what happens when the Catholic Church discourages the reading of scripture. Its not a "metaphor". Please stick to facts not opinion.


flashleg I am Christian...non-denominational /Pentecostal.

Pentecostal is not non-denominational. It's Pentecostal.

lol There are MANY denominations within the Pentecostal Doctrine. Of which I belong to none.

[jay_a2j]

flashleg I am Christian...non-denominational /Pentecostal.

Thanks, I'm not too familiar with the Pentecostal movement - would I be correct in saying this is similar to the "born again" Christian movement in the UK?

Edit: And your view is that the Scripture is literally correct and that the author is God himself (working through the prophets etc)?

Any person of the Christian faith can be "born again". Pentecostals believe in the gifts of the spirit (Speaking in tongues, healing, etc.) Non-Pentecostals do not believe these gifts are in effect today. (Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, etc.) But there are born again Christians in all denominations both pentecostal and non-pentecostal.

And yes to your edit.

[flashleg8]

flashleg I am Christian...non-denominational /Pentecostal.

Thanks, I'm not too familiar with the Pentecostal movement - would I be correct in saying this is similar to the "born again" Christian movement in the UK?

Edit: And your view is that the Scripture is literally correct and that the author is God himself (working through the prophets etc)?

Any person of the Christian faith can be "born again". Pentecostals believe in the gifts of the spirit (Speaking in tongues, healing, etc.) Non-Pentecostals do not believe these gifts are in effect today. (Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, etc.) But there are born again Christians in all denominations both pentecostal and non-pentecostal.

And yes to your edit.

Thanks for the info.

[vtmarik]

lol There are MANY denominations within the Pentecostal Doctrine. Of which I belong to none.

Pentecostalism is a denomination, as it is noticeably separate from other Christian denominations (Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, etc.). Yes there are denominations within Pentecostalism (Assembly of God, United Pentecostal Church, Church of God in Christ, etc.), but this does not change the fact that you are a Pentecostal above all else.

Just because you aren't in a subdivision of the doctrine, doesn't mean that you're non-denominational. You're simply "Pentecostal."

[jay_a2j]

Lets agree to disagree. Pentecostal is not a denomination. A denomination has its own belief system apart from other churches. Pentecostal has denominations within itself. You can't have a denomination within a denomination. The denomination defines what you believe.


Flashleg, you're welcome.

[vtmarik]

Pentecostals believe that one must be saved by believing in Jesus as Lord and Savior for the forgiveness of sins and to be made acceptable to God. Pentecostals also typically believe, like most other evangelicals, that the Bible has definitive authority in matters of faith.

Because many Pentecostal denominations are descended from Methodism and the Methodist Holiness Movement, Pentecostal soteriology is generally Arminian rather than Calvinist, believing that the ability to believe in Jesus is a power of the human free will.

This is in fact one of the distinctions that separates Pentecostal traditions from those of the Second Wave Charismatic and Evangelical churches which tend toward a Calvinistic soteriology. One of the main points of division is the definition of eternal security which is thoroughly Calvinist in the later Evangelical denominations and follows the Arminian tract in Pentecostal churches and denominations. This is most clearly illustrated by the belief held in Pentecostal groups that crediting the charismatic gifts and expressions to demonic or carnal motives and spirits qualifies as an unpardonable sin (Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit). In Charismatic and Evangelical churches, this view is marginalized or replaced with the belief that refusing to convert to Christianity before death is the only unpardonable sin.[citation needed]

Pentecostals believe in water baptism as an outward sign of conversion and that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is a distinct spiritual experience that all who have believed in Jesus should receive. Most classical Pentecostals believe that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is always accompanied initially by the outward evidence of speaking in tongues. It is considered a liberalizing tendency to teach contrary to this historic position. This is another major difference between Pentecostal and Charismatic Christians, who believe that a Christian baptized in the Holy Spirit may exhibit certain supernatural signs, including speaking in tongues, "being slain in the spirit" (where people fall to the ground as if asleep or in convulsions), prophecy (i.e. a vision or a word of God, spoken or felt in the spirit), miraculous healings, miraculous signs, etc.

Most major Pentecostal denominations reject any connection between personal salvation or conversion and the baptism in the Holy Spirit and teach that it is not necessary for salvation, but a gift from God available to all Christians regardless of denominational affiliation. This doctrine was a development of the teachings of Stephen Galbraith regarding what he called the Third Moment of Grace and as such is linked to soteriology. Many early Pentecostals believed that the revival of the gifts of the Spirit were a sign from God of the latter rain, a period of restoration before the end of the age and the coming millenial reign of Christ. Traditional Protestants believe that one is baptized with or in the Holy Spirit upon regeneration, the work of the Holy Spirit that enables faith and belief in the unbelieving heart. Pentecostals would not deny that regeneration is an activity of the Holy Spirit or that it results in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the believer. Instead they distinguish this indwelling from a subsequent, more intense relationship with the Holy Spirit.

Protestants most often reject such concepts as a "second grace" though not rejecting the idea of periodic or even weekly renewal through repentance and the ordinances of the church. Classical Pentecostals, unlike their Charismatic or evangelical counterparts, hold a peculiar form of sacerdotalism. For this reason many will not use the term Sacrament, preferring the term sacerdotal function or ordinance. This belief invests the efficacy of the ordinance in the obedience and participation of the believer and the witness of the celebrant and the congregation. This view stems from a highly developed concept of the priesthood of the individual believer. The activity of the ordinance takes on a sacerdotal rather than sacremental role in that it is a sacrificial act offered by the believer on his or her own behalf, rather than a ritual which has an inherent power of its own.

Emphasis added, full article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostalism

It is a division of Christianity that later fractured further. Makes ya wonder how a perfect document written by a perfect god can spawn so many groups of people each claiming that their interpretation is the only correct one.

I cannot agree to disagree here. There must be an understanding that pentecostalism is a denomination unto itself that later splintered into many other denominations.

If Protestantism and Catholicism are denominations (though both have different denominations within them) then so is Pentecostalism.

[The1exile]

Jay, what makes you insist that there has always been God as opposed to there has always been a universe? Because God has been one of the oldest and most simplistic ways of explaining things through history?

[heavycola]

I think God created your brain out of dust

Genesis is an extended metaphor for the scientific factors that created and formed the world. 3000 years ago, If you told people they had evolved over billions of years, they would have laughed you out of Israel. Thats why the Bible isnt literal. It wouldn't have been accepted.

Im sitting here waiting for Caleb to come and call me a heretic who will burn in hell

This is what happens when the Catholic Church discourages the reading of scripture. Its not a "metaphor".

Well this is weird, because i remember arguing with you that two verses in job referring to the 'four corners of the earth' and 'take the earth by the edges and shake the wickedness out' mean the author believed the world was flat.

Your response? 'They are metaphors'.



Oh, and:

Makes ya wonder how a perfect document written by a perfect god can spawn so many groups of people each claiming that their interpretation is the only correct one.

well said.

[WL_southerner]

god is just a thing to explane the unexplanable thigs, in man early mid history on this planet.
the very first up right ape man pithecanthrope man and neanderthal man did not belive in god only homo sapiens only did in the last 2 thousands years not very long
ah the wonders of god works in any way.
oh penacostal is english started by a scotsman back in 17some thing born again christain is a american started to show up in the uk late 1960s early 1970s

[MR. Nate]

Without wading into the deeper issue here, as I have in the past, Jay's right about the denomination thing.

Formal Denominations have some sort of heirarchy or ruling body. The Vatican for Catholics, SBC for southern baptists. Some denominations have split, and have multiple ruling bodies, creating different denominations from the original: A Presbyterian in the US could be in 1 of a number of formal denominations, including the PCUSA, PCA or the EPC, each one is it's own denomination. Churches without allegiance to a ruling body often align themselves with a larger movement, for ease of identification. So, even though there are a bunch of Presbyterian denominations, you could have a church, which considers itself presbyterian because of it's doctrine, but is formally non-denominational becuse it is self-governing. Generally, pentecostalism is considered more of a movement than a denomination, so it's very common to have a pentecostal/nondenominational church.

Edit: Note the beginning of the 2nd and 5th paragraphs of the wikipedia quote, which refers to "pentacostal denominations" Plural, meaning, there are multiple.

[WL_southerner]

nate is that the wikipedia book or from the wikipedia web site if from web site dont belive all that there alot of the site info has errors

[Backglass]

Jesus said to, "Go into all the world and preach the Good News". He did not say hide in your home and worship there so as not to offend the unbeliever.

It doesn't say FORCE your religion on others though does it. Ram it down their throats in schools and public places. Force others to view (and pay for) your propaganda even if they wish not to.

Nope. Yet they continue to "Annoy thy neighbor".

[jay_a2j]

Jay, what makes you insist that there has always been God as opposed to there has always been a universe? Because God has been one of the oldest and most simplistic ways of explaining things through history?

Always been a Universe.....hmmm that's an option. One I find hard to fathom but an option. So, would that include the planets, stars, meteors, comets black holes, etc. or just "space" itself? If "space" just always existed...where did the other stuff come from? Oh, and to answer your question, because His Word says so and I believe it to be divinely inspired. Look at its track record, its simply amazing.


backglass... no one's "forcing" anything. Don't tell me some crazy Christian comes to your house and logs you on to CC everyday with a gun to your head! You choose to enter the threads. You are forcing it on yourself.

vtmarik.... because man is flawed. That is why there are so many interpretations and denominations. Its also why I have not joined a church denomination. I don't think any of them are 100% right.

[Wisse]

First off put aside any bias that you may have...weather it be religious or anti-religious.

Now science has said, Life cannot come from non-life. Which is common sense... a rock will never reproduce since it is not living.

Then you trace back all life to its orgin...the very first living thing.

Where did it come from?

The ONLY answer is someting or someone has always existed. And that someone or something must have the power to create (or reproduce).

There must be a God.

Science also dictates evolution could never have happened (but lets save that for a later thread).

ever heard of vulcanoes? thats the thign that maked all the things live, so you say god is a vulcano?

[2dimes]

Case closed, lock the thread.

[WL_southerner]

ok give me a story from the old testament lets see what happen

[2dimes]

1 فِي الْبَدْءِ خَلَقَ اللهُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضَ،

2 وَإِذْ كَانَتِ الأَرْضُ مُشَوَّشَةً وَمُقْفِرَةً وَتَكْتَنِفُ الظُّلْمَةُ وَجْهَ الْمِيَاهِ، وَإِذْ كَانَ رُوحُ اللهِ يُرَفْرِفُ عَلَى سَطْحِ الْمِيَاهِ،

3 أَمَرَ اللهُ : «لِيَكُنْ نُورٌ». فَصَارَ نُورٌ،

4 وَرَأَى اللهُ النُّورَ فَاسْتَحْسَنَهُ وَفَصَلَ بَيْنَهُ وَبَيْنَ الظَّلامِ.

5 وَسَمَّى اللهُ النُّورَ نَهَاراً، أَمَّا الظَّلامُ فَسَمَّاهُ لَيْلاً. وَهَكَذَا جَاءَ مَسَاءٌ أَعْقَبَهُ صَبَاحٌ، فَكَانَ الْيَوْمَ الأَوَّلَ.

6 ثُمَّ أَمَرَ اللهُ : «لِيَكُنْ جَلَدٌ يَحْجُزُ بَيْنَ مِيَاهٍ وَمِيَاهٍ».

7 فَخَلَقَ اللهُ الْجَلَدَ، وَفَرَّقَ بَيْنَ الْمِيَاهِ الَّتِي تَحْمِلُهَا السُّحُبُ وَالْمِيَاهِ الَّتِي تَغْمُرُ الأَرْضَ. وَهَكَذَا كَانَ.

8 وَسَمَّى اللهُ الْجَلَدَ سَمَاءً. ثُمَّ جَاءَ مَسَاءٌ أَعْقَبَهُ صَبَاحٌ فَكَانَ الْيَوْمَ الثَّانِي.

9 ثُمَّ أَمَرَ اللهُ : «لِتَتَجَمَّعِ الْمِيَاهُ الَّتِي تَحْتَ السَّمَاءِ إِلَى مَوْضِعٍ وَاحِدٍ، وَلْتَظْهَرِ الْيَابِسَةُ». وَهَكَذَا كَانَ.

10 وَسَمَّى اللهُ الْيَابِسَةَ أَرْضاً وَالْمِيَاهَ الْمُجْتَمِعَةَ بِحَاراً. وَرَأَى اللهُ ذَلِكَ فَاسْتَحْسَنَهُ.

11 وَأَمَرَ اللهُ : «لِتُنْبِتِ الأَرْضُ عُشْباً وَبَقْلاً مُبْزِراً، وَشَجَراً مُثْمِراً فِيهِ بِزْرُهُ الَّذِي يُنْتِجُ ثَمَراً كَجِنْسِهِ فِي الأَرْضِ». وَهَكَذَا كَانَ.

12 فَأَنْبَتَتِ الأَرْضُ كُلَّ أَنْوَاعِ الأَعْشَابِ وَالْبُقُولِ الَّتِي تَحْمِلُ بُزُوراً مِنْ جِنْسِهَا، وَالأَشْجَارَ الَّتِي تَحْمِلُ أَثْمَاراً ذَاتَ بُذُورٍ مِنْ جِنْسِهَا. وَرَأَى اللهُ ذَلِكَ فَاسْتَحْسَنَهُ.

13 وَجَاءَ مَسَاءٌ أَعْقَبَهُ صَبَاحٌ فَكَانَ الْيَوْمَ الثَّالِثَ.

14 ثُمَّ أَمَرَ اللهُ : «لِتَكُنْ أَنْوَارٌ فِي جَلَدِ السَّمَاءِ لِتُفَرِّقَ بَيْنَ النَّهَارِ وَاللَّيْلِ، فَتَكُونَ عَلاَمَاتٍ لِتَحْدِيدِ أَزْمِنَةٍ وَأَيَّامٍ وَسِنِينَ.

15 وَتَكُونَ أَيْضاً أَنْوَاراً فِي جَلَدِ السَّمَاءِ لِتُضِيءَ الأَرْضَ». وَهَكَذَا كَانَ.

16 وَخَلَقَ اللهُ نُورَ يْنِ عَظِيمَيْنِ، النُّورَ الأَكْبَرَ لِيُشْرِقَ فِي النَّهَارِ، وَالنُّورَ الأَصْغَرَ لِيُضِيءَ فِي اللَّيْلِ، كَمَا خَلَقَ النُّجُومَ أَيْضاً.

17 وَجَعَلَهَا اللهُ فِي جَلَدِ السَّمَاءِ لِتُضِيءَ الأَرْضَ،

18 لِتَتَحَكَّمَ بِالنَّهَارِ وَبِاللَّيْلِ وَلِتُفَرِّقَ بَيْنَ النُّورِ وَالظَّلامِ. وَرَأَى اللهُ ذَلِكَ فَاسْتَحْسَنَهُ.

19 وَجَاءَ مَسَاءٌ أَعْقَبَهُ صَبَاحٌ فَكَانَ الْيَوْمَ الرَّابِعَ.

20 ثُمَّ أَمَرَ اللهُ : «لِتَزْخَرِ الْمِيَاهُ بِشَتَّى الْحَيَوَانَاتِ الْحَيَّةِ وَلْتُحَلِّقِ الطُّيُورُ فَوْقَ الأَرْضِ عَبْرَ فَضَاءِ السَّمَاءِ».

21 وَهَكَذَا خَلَقَ اللهُ الْحَيَوَانَاتِ الْمَائِيَّةَ الضَّخْمَةَ، وَالْكَائِنَاتِ الْحَيَّةَ الَّتِي اكْتَظَّتْ بِهَا الْمِيَاهُ، كُلاً حَسَبَ أَجْنَاسِهَا، وَأَيْضاً الطُّيُورَ وَفْقاً لأَنْوَاعِهَا. وَرَأَى اللهُ ذَلِكَ فَاسْتَحْسَنَهُ.

22 وَبَارَكَهَا اللهُ قَائِلاً: «انْتِجِي، وَتَكَاثَرِي وَامْلإِي مِيَاهَ الْبِحَارِ. وَلْتَتَكَاثَرِ الطُّيُورُ فَوْقَ الأَرْضِ».

23 ثُمَّ جَاءَ مَسَاءٌ أَعْقَبَهُ صَبَاحٌ فَكَانَ الْيَوْمَ الْخَامِسَ.

24 ثُمَّ أَمَرَ اللهُ : «لِتُخْرِجِ الأَرْضُ كَائِنَاتٍ حَيَّةً، كُلاً حَسَبَ جِنْسِهَا، مِنْ بَهَائِمَ وَزَوَاحِفَ وَوُحُوشٍ وَفْقاً لأَنْوَاعِهَا». وَهَكَذَا كَانَ.

25 فَخَلَقَ اللهُ وُحُوشَ الأَرْضِ، وَالْبَهَائِمَ وَالزَّوَاحِفَ، كُلاً حَسَبَ نَوْعِهَا. وَرَأَى اللهُ ذَلِكَ فَاسْتَحْسَنَهُ.

26 ثُمَّ قَالَ اللهُ : «لِنَصْنَعِ الإِنْسَانَ عَلَى صُورَتِنَا، كَمِثَالِنَا، فَيَتَسَلَّطَ عَلَى سَمَكِ الْبَحْرِ، وَعَلَى طَيْرِ السَّمَاءِ، وَعَلَى الأَرْضِ، وَعَلَى كُلِّ زَاحِفٍ يَزْحَفُ عَلَيْهَا».

27 فَخَلَقَ اللهُ الإِنْسَانَ عَلَى صُورَتِهِ. عَلَى صُورَةِ اللهِ خَلَقَهُ. ذَكَراً وَأُنْثَى خَلَقَهُمْ.

28 وَبَارَكَهُمُ اللهُ قَائِلاً لَهُمْ: «أَثْمِرُوا وَتَكَاثَرُوا وَامْلَأُوا الأَرْضَ وَأَخْضِعُوهَا. وَتَسَلَّطُوا عَلَى سَمَكِ الْبَحْرِ، وَعَلَى طَيْرِ السَّمَاءِ وَعَلَى كُلِّ حَيَوَانٍ يَتَحَرَّكُ عَلَى الأَرْضِ».

29 ثُمَّ قَالَ لَهُمْ: «إِنِّي قَدْ أَعْطَيْتُكُمْ كُلَّ أَصْنَافِ الْبُقُولِ الْمُبْزِرَةِ الْمُنْتَشِرَةِ عَلَى كُلِّ سَطْحِ الأَرْضِ، وَكُلَّ شَجَرٍ مُثْمِرٍ مُبْزِرٍ، لِتَكُونَ لَكُمْ طَعَاماً.

30 أَمَّا الْعُشْبُ الأَخْضَرُ فَقَدْ جَعَلْتُهُ طَعَاماً لِكُلٍّ مِنْ وُحُوشِ الأَرْضِ وَطُيُورِ السَّمَاءِ وَالْحَيَوَانَاتِ الزَّاحِفَةِ، وَلِكُلِّ مَا فِيهِ نَسَمَةُ حَيَاةِ». وَهَكَذَا كَانَ.

31 وَرَأَى اللهُ مَا خَلَقَهُ فَاسْتَحْسَنَهُ جِدّاً. ثُمَّ جَاءَ مَسَاءٌ أَعْقَبَهُ صَبَاحٌ فَكَانَ الْيَوْمَ السَّادِسَ.

Arabic Life Application Bible (ALAB)
Copyright © 1988 by International Bible Society

[Backglass]

backglass... no one's "forcing" anything. Don't tell me some crazy Christian comes to your house and logs you on to CC everyday with a gun to your head! You choose to enter the threads. You are forcing it on yourself.

Thanks for actually READING my post again jay...you truly have blinders on.

• Public school teaching religious beliefs (intelligent design).
• Commandments & scriptures at courthouses and other public institutions.
• Prayer before scholastic sporting events.
• Religious wordings being placed on our currency.

Shall I go on? THAT is shoving it down throats.

You are right about one thing. You are flawed.

[vtmarik]

Without wading into the deeper issue here, as I have in the past, Jay's right about the denomination thing.

Formal Denominations have some sort of heirarchy or ruling body. The Vatican for Catholics, SBC for southern baptists. Some denominations have split, and have multiple ruling bodies, creating different denominations from the original: A Presbyterian in the US could be in 1 of a number of formal denominations, including the PCUSA, PCA or the EPC, each one is it's own denomination. Churches without allegiance to a ruling body often align themselves with a larger movement, for ease of identification. So, even though there are a bunch of Presbyterian denominations, you could have a church, which considers itself presbyterian because of it's doctrine, but is formally non-denominational becuse it is self-governing. Generally, pentecostalism is considered more of a movement than a denomination, so it's very common to have a pentecostal/nondenominational church.

Edit: Note the beginning of the 2nd and 5th paragraphs of the wikipedia quote, which refers to "pentacostal denominations" Plural, meaning, there are multiple.

Oh, that's right, i'm sorry. I forgot that in the face of overwhelming agreement, all other opinions and semantical analysis is wrong. Truth is democratic, i forgot.

Thanks for setting me straight.

Now do you see why I'm not a traditionalist Christian?

[DIRESTRAITS]

They won 11 of the 18 state athletic championships last year, just because they recruit playes from all over. It really PISSES ME OFF!

Cracks me up that the Catholic Church isn't above cheating to win!!

I know. My favorite part is they even get tutors and lower the entrance standards for atheletes they recruit. Very Christian

[MR. Nate]

[quote'"vtmarik"]Now do you see why I'm not a traditionalist Christian?[/quote] Are you saying your some sort of non-traditional Christian?

[vtmarik]

Now do you see why I'm not a traditionalist Christian?

Are you saying your some sort of non-traditional Christian?

I'm a Unitarian Universalist, in addition to many other things (Satanist, Discordian, SubGenius, etc.).

[Romber]

GOD EXISTS, NO QUESTIONS NEEDED