Nobel Prize winning economist: "Cap and Trade is Cheap"

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Simon Viavant
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Nobel Prize winning economist: "Cap and Trade is Cheap"

Post by Simon Viavant »

And effective, despite fox news scare tactics.

Paul Krugman wrote:So, have you enjoyed the debate over health care reform? Have you been impressed by the civility of the discussion and the intellectual honesty of reform opponents?

If so, you’ll love the next big debate: the fight over climate change.

The House has already passed a fairly strong cap-and-trade climate bill, the Waxman-Markey act, which if it becomes law would eventually lead to sharp reductions in greenhouse gas emissions. But on climate change, as on health care, the sticking point will be the Senate. And the usual suspects are doing their best to prevent action.

Some of them still claim that there’s no such thing as global warming, or at least that the evidence isn’t yet conclusive. But that argument is wearing thin — as thin as the Arctic pack ice, which has now diminished to the point that shipping companies are opening up new routes through the formerly impassable seas north of Siberia.

Even corporations are losing patience with the deniers: earlier this week Pacific Gas and Electric canceled its membership in the U.S. Chamber of Commerce in protest over the chamber’s “disingenuous attempts to diminish or distort the reality” of climate change.

So the main argument against climate action probably won’t be the claim that global warming is a myth. It will, instead, be the argument that doing anything to limit global warming would destroy the economy. As the blog Climate Progress puts it, opponents of climate change legislation “keep raising their estimated cost of the clean energy and global warming pollution reduction programs like some out of control auctioneer.”

It’s important, then, to understand that claims of immense economic damage from climate legislation are as bogus, in their own way, as climate-change denial. Saving the planet won’t come free (although the early stages of conservation actually might). But it won’t cost all that much either.

How do we know this? First, the evidence suggests that we’re wasting a lot of energy right now. That is, we’re burning large amounts of coal, oil and gas in ways that don’t actually enhance our standard of living — a phenomenon known in the research literature as the “energy-efficiency gap.” The existence of this gap suggests that policies promoting energy conservation could, up to a point, actually make consumers richer.

Second, the best available economic analyses suggest that even deep cuts in greenhouse gas emissions would impose only modest costs on the average family. Earlier this month, the Congressional Budget Office released an analysis of the effects of Waxman-Markey, concluding that in 2020 the bill would cost the average family only $160 a year, or 0.2 percent of income. That’s roughly the cost of a postage stamp a day.

By 2050, when the emissions limit would be much tighter, the burden would rise to 1.2 percent of income. But the budget office also predicts that real G.D.P. will be about two-and-a-half times larger in 2050 than it is today, so that G.D.P. per person will rise by about 80 percent. The cost of climate protection would barely make a dent in that growth. And all of this, of course, ignores the benefits of limiting global warming.

So where do the apocalyptic warnings about the cost of climate-change policy come from?

Are the opponents of cap-and-trade relying on different studies that reach fundamentally different conclusions? No, not really. It’s true that last spring the Heritage Foundation put out a report claiming that Waxman-Markey would lead to huge job losses, but the study seems to have been so obviously absurd that I’ve hardly seen anyone cite it.

Instead, the campaign against saving the planet rests mainly on lies.

Thus, last week Glenn Beck — who seems to be challenging Rush Limbaugh for the role of de facto leader of the G.O.P. — informed his audience of a “buried” Obama administration study showing that Waxman-Markey would actually cost the average family $1,787 per year. Needless to say, no such study exists.

But we shouldn’t be too hard on Mr. Beck. Similar — and similarly false — claims about the cost of Waxman-Markey have been circulated by many supposed experts.

A year ago I would have been shocked by this behavior. But as we’ve already seen in the health care debate, the polarization of our political discourse has forced self-proclaimed “centrists” to choose sides — and many of them have apparently decided that partisan opposition to President Obama trumps any concerns about intellectual honesty.

So here’s the bottom line: The claim that climate legislation will kill the economy deserves the same disdain as the claim that global warming is a hoax. The truth about the economics of climate change is that it’s relatively easy being green.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/25/opinion/25krugman.html
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Re: Nobel Prize winning economist: "Cap and Trade is Cheap"

Post by HapSmo19 »

Paul Krugman wrote:Instead, the campaign against saving the planet rests mainly on lies.


:lol: You people are fucking dumb.

And hey, if it's so cheap @ $160/yr in 2020, and you believe so strongly in it, you won't mind picking up the tab for two or three others that aren't quite as fucking stupid as you. You can have the gold star and all the historical glory for saving the planet. Cheers.
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Re: Nobel Prize winning economist: "Cap and Trade is Cheap"

Post by BigBallinStalin »

HapSmo19 wrote:
Paul Krugman wrote:Instead, the campaign against saving the planet rests mainly on lies.


:lol: You people are fucking dumb.

And hey, if it's so cheap @ $160/yr in 2020, and you believe so strongly in it, you won't mind picking up the tab for two or three others that aren't quite as fucking stupid as you. You can have the gold star and all the historical glory for saving the planet. Cheers.


Instead of others picking up your bill because you don't believe in personal responsibility, suppose someone murdered you. That's a far better alternative, isn't it?

There'd be less of a carbon footprint (thanks to the generous murderer), and we wouldn't have to hear your rubbish any more.
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Re: Nobel Prize winning economist: "Cap and Trade is Cheap"

Post by Snorri1234 »

BigBallinStalin wrote:
HapSmo19 wrote:
Paul Krugman wrote:Instead, the campaign against saving the planet rests mainly on lies.


:lol: You people are fucking dumb.

And hey, if it's so cheap @ $160/yr in 2020, and you believe so strongly in it, you won't mind picking up the tab for two or three others that aren't quite as fucking stupid as you. You can have the gold star and all the historical glory for saving the planet. Cheers.


Instead of others picking up your bill because you don't believe in personal responsibility,

:lol: :lol:

Oh solid burn.
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Re: Nobel Prize winning economist: "Cap and Trade is Cheap"

Post by Nobunaga »

... Let's clear the air.

... The pro Cap n' Tax crowd has, as per their usual pattern, attempted to shift the argument through personal insult (though this was in response to same).

... You guys thinking cap n' trade is a good idea, explain to us how this works. Just to verify that you understand, because I get the feeling you're missing some major points.

... Then please explain the effects, if any, this will have on business.

... Then please explain what impact, if any, the above (impact on business) will have on consumers, specifically prices for goods and services.

... Then tell us all why this such a great idea.

... Looking forward to it.

...
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Re: Nobel Prize winning economist: "Cap and Trade is Cheap"

Post by PLAYER57832 »

Here is some information, mostly from economic standpoints.

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/proj ... ce_project
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Re: Nobel Prize winning economist: "Cap and Trade is Cheap"

Post by Nobunaga »

PLAYER57832 wrote:Here is some information, mostly from economic standpoints.

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/proj ... ce_project


... I don't care if that economist knows what it is. I'm asking you guys.

...
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Re: Nobel Prize winning economist: "Cap and Trade is Cheap"

Post by Timminz »

Nobunaga wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Here is some information, mostly from economic standpoints.

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/proj ... ce_project


... I don't care if that economist knows what it is. I'm asking you guys.

...


Yeah. Don't cite any of the sources you used to learn about it. Just paraphrase already!
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Re: Nobel Prize winning economist: "Cap and Trade is Cheap"

Post by PLAYER57832 »

Nobunaga wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Here is some information, mostly from economic standpoints.

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/proj ... ce_project


... I don't care if that economist knows what it is. I'm asking you guys.

...


Try more than a few economists.


However, here is the deal. Yes, cap and trade will cost money. However, if you take as a given that we need to make change, cap and trade is one of the better ways. It will put the costs squarely upon the people who cause the most problems, thus giving huge economic incentives to change.

The practicalities are to keep this from throwing everything into a complete tailspin right away, some companies will be allotted certain quotas that they can then use or sell. At first, there may well be "too many" of these put out to really change much. BUT, the idea is that some people (environmental groups, perhaps governments, etc.) will buy them and not use them... along with other stuff.

Anyway, the real truth is you object to the entire theory of global warming, so ANYthing that will cost anything is "harmful".

All other ways of dealing with this will cost the consumer far more and likely be far less effective in the long run. However, cap and trade cannot and will not be the ONLY solution. It is just a part of the mix.
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Re: Nobel Prize winning economist: "Cap and Trade is Cheap"

Post by 72o »

I work in the energy industry. Specifically, I work for a manufacturer of power generation equipment. We build turbines.

We have a well established gas and steam turbine market that will be devastated by this measure. The utility companies that purchase our products will not be able to purchase new equipment because their profits will be decreased by the amount of this tax. Mind you, their profits are already regulated by the government. If they have to purchase new equipment to create capacity for increased demand, they will pay additional taxes (penalties) for purchasing fossil fueled equipment instead of renewable equipment. The only way this would be possible is by increasing the rates they charge consumers - you and me, through our power bills.

We also build wind turbines. That industry stands to gain immensely from this bill. A portion of the hundreds of billions a year in tax revenue generated from this bill will be earmarked for subsidies to renewable energy producers. This means that the same utility company, who needs to increase their capacity, will have a huge incentive to go buy a hundred wind turbines to replace the single gas turbine they would have bought.

Sounds great, right? Sure, it's green, that's awesome. But wind is a more expensive power generation source than fossil fuels, even when you add in the cost of the fuel. Also, what do you think the brass at my company, and all of our competitors, will do to our pricing when we know that the government has created an artificial demand for our product by punishing those who buy a different type of product to achieve the same result? That's right, they will increase the prices to whatever level they can sustain and still be competitive with the fossil fuel turbines and their competition in the wind market. How will the utility company deal with this cost increase, for an already more expensive source of power? They'll raise our power bills.

Businesses we use every day will also have to contend with higher power bills, which they will have to pass on to their consumers in the form of higher prices for the goods and services they sell. Either way you end up with consumers paying higher prices.

If being "green" has a value, what number can be associated with it? Is it worth it to make our industries less competitive in the global marketplace, because international competition does not have higher energy costs, just to "save the planet"?
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Re: Nobel Prize winning economist: "Cap and Trade is Cheap"

Post by Timminz »

Dear future generations,

Fuck you. Pay me.

Sincerely,
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ps. He who dies with the most, wins.
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Re: Nobel Prize winning economist: "Cap and Trade is Cheap"

Post by PLAYER57832 »

Like I said, the real issue is whether people want to believe that we have a real problem or insist we don't.

If you believe we have a real problem, then these costs are just plain necessary. The sooner we fix the problem, the cheaper it will be, so let's get moving ... quickly!

However, the REAL problem is that most of those who don't like Cap and trade really just plain don't believe climate change is a problem, or at least don't believe it is a big problem that can be solved/needs to be solved by we humans. (there are variations from those who actually welcom a "doomsday" scenario as bringing on "the end times" to those who think the scientists are jus misguided to those who think there is an outright conspiracy to make a few people, particular Al Gore, rich).
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Re: Nobel Prize winning economist: "Cap and Trade is Cheap"

Post by ser stiefel »

We need to hurry up and solve global warming, so we can get to work on the real problem.

Our sun is eventually going to enter its red giant phase at which time its radius will expand to encompass the orbital distance of earth.

Needless to say, we will be toast.

Now that is a real problem. Not just a little bit higher sea level, and a bit different ideal locations for growing crops, but a truly and frighteningly fiery demise!!

No time like the present to get started on a big problem! :)
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Re: Nobel Prize winning economist: "Cap and Trade is Cheap"

Post by 72o »

ser stiefel wrote:We need to hurry up and solve global warming, so we can get to work on the real problem.

Our sun is eventually going to enter its red giant phase at which time its radius will expand to encompass the orbital distance of earth.

Needless to say, we will be toast.

Now that is a real problem. Not just a little bit higher sea level, and a bit different ideal locations for growing crops, but a truly and frighteningly fiery demise!!


Or the fact that Yellowstone is a super volcano overdue for its next huge eruption, which will blast enough dust into the atmosphere to cause a nuclear winter that will exterminate life on this planet, and will release more carbon dioxide than humans have created during our entire existence.




Translation for those who need it spelled out:

The planet and the universe for that matter are going to do whatever the hell they want to do regardless of human intervention. It is stupid to think that cap and trade will have a significant impact on the life or lack thereof of this planet and our species. Especially since the US is a tiny fragment of the entire world's population, and other countries will not enact the same legislation.
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Re: Nobel Prize winning economist: "Cap and Trade is Cheap"

Post by PLAYER57832 »

72o wrote:Translation for those who need it spelled out:

The planet and the universe for that matter are going to do whatever the hell they want to do regardless of human intervention. It is stupid to think that cap and trade will have a significant impact on the life or lack thereof of this planet and our species. Especially since the US is a tiny fragment of the entire world's population, and other countries will not enact the same legislation.


:roll:
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Re: Nobel Prize winning economist: "Cap and Trade is Cheap"

Post by 72o »

Wow, such a profound rebuttal. I stand corrected.
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Re: Nobel Prize winning economist: "Cap and Trade is Cheap"

Post by spurgistan »

PLAYER57832 wrote:
72o wrote:Translation for those who need it spelled out:

The planet and the universe for that matter are going to do whatever the hell they want to do regardless of human intervention. It is stupid to think that cap and trade will have a significant impact on the life or lack thereof of this planet and our species. Especially since the US is a tiny fragment of the entire world's population, and other countries will not enact the same legislation.


:roll:


Who cares about helping people. We're all going to die someday. What will it do, anyways? Prolong the inevitable.

Really? This is the tack you're going to take?
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Re: Nobel Prize winning economist: "Cap and Trade is Cheap"

Post by 72o »

How exactly is cap and trade "helping people"? I mean, it's not like the tax will go to fund the soup kitchens or anything.

I think my point is a valid one.

Any climate change legislation that does not force the entire planet to conform to the same agenda will only hinder progress in the location it is enacted. If you disagree, let's talk about that, instead of how I'm an idiot.

Even more of our manufacturing jobs will go to the People's Republic of China. Nothing else of any magnitude will happen because of it.

The Earth will not be saved, or destroyed, by humans. Someday this planet will fight us off like a bad case of the flu.
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Re: Nobel Prize winning economist: "Cap and Trade is Cheap"

Post by Snorri1234 »

The point is that it's a dishonest argument. You're saying that since other countries aren't currently planning to do what you're supposed to do means we should really just start a race on who can f*ck up teh planet the fastest. That's retarded.
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Re: Nobel Prize winning economist: "Cap and Trade is Cheap"

Post by Nobunaga »

Snorri1234 wrote:The point is that it's a dishonest argument. You're saying that since other countries aren't currently planning to do what you're supposed to do means we should really just start a race on who can f*ck up teh planet the fastest. That's retarded.


... Supposed to? Expound on that, please, Snorri. Do you mean we are supposed to be responsible wardens of the planet, or that we're supposed to tax the crap out of carbon?

...
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Re: Nobel Prize winning economist: "Cap and Trade is Cheap"

Post by 72o »

Nobunaga wrote:
Snorri1234 wrote:The point is that it's a dishonest argument. You're saying that since other countries aren't currently planning to do what you're supposed to do means we should really just start a race on who can f*ck up teh planet the fastest. That's retarded.


... Supposed to? Expound on that, please, Snorri. Do you mean we are supposed to be responsible wardens of the planet, or that we're supposed to tax the crap out of carbon?

...


And who makes the decision on what we are supposed to do?

Maybe we are supposed to all live our lives however we choose, the way we have been for the last couple thousand decades. We find resources, we use them. Pretty soon others do the same. Some more than others. Then there's a movement towards control over those resources. Where does it become exploitation? When is it "raping the planet"?

Aside from carbon emissions, what about other aspects of the human "experiment"? When will overpopulation become a problem that needs to be dealt with? Who decides how many people is too many? Who decides how to share the limited resources we have on this planet?
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Re: Nobel Prize winning economist: "Cap and Trade is Cheap"

Post by Snorri1234 »

Nobunaga wrote:
Snorri1234 wrote:The point is that it's a dishonest argument. You're saying that since other countries aren't currently planning to do what you're supposed to do means we should really just start a race on who can f*ck up teh planet the fastest. That's retarded.


... Supposed to? Expound on that, please, Snorri. Do you mean we are supposed to be responsible wardens of the planet, or that we're supposed to tax the crap out of carbon?

...


The former. Taxing the crap out of carbon is irrelevant to the point 72o is making, i.e. that doing anything is useless because the planet is fucked up anyway.

We can hope that our example (whether taxing carbon or somethign else) convinces others to do the same thing. To preemptively say it won't is silly because it's pessimistic to the point of irrelevancy. If we don't do anything it will happen anyway, if we do do something perhaps it won't.
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Re: Nobel Prize winning economist: "Cap and Trade is Cheap"

Post by Snowgun »

I love how the world bitches that we do to much for other countries, and then turns around and says we are supposed to fix everything ourselves.

Lets have all you socially concious small countries start petitioning China, India, and Russia for some action. When they get on your bandwagon, THEN come to us and we will happily ride the train. Why do they have to go first? Cuz everyone fucking KNOWS they will tell you to f*ck off whether we do it or not.

If it's soo much in their best interest, then they should do it since they have about half the world's population. They have more to gain if it's true!

Or, this could be a ruse to destroy the free world's economy for little or no effective gain. (but it will pad some politician pockets baby!)
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Re: Nobel Prize winning economist: "Cap and Trade is Cheap"

Post by Orange-Idaho-Dog »

72o wrote:
ser stiefel wrote:We need to hurry up and solve global warming, so we can get to work on the real problem.

Our sun is eventually going to enter its red giant phase at which time its radius will expand to encompass the orbital distance of earth.

Needless to say, we will be toast.

Now that is a real problem. Not just a little bit higher sea level, and a bit different ideal locations for growing crops, but a truly and frighteningly fiery demise!!


Or the fact that Yellowstone is a super volcano overdue for its next huge eruption, which will blast enough dust into the atmosphere to cause a nuclear winter that will exterminate life on this planet, and will release more carbon dioxide than humans have created during our entire existence.




Translation for those who need it spelled out:

The planet and the universe for that matter are going to do whatever the hell they want to do regardless of human intervention. It is stupid to think that cap and trade will have a significant impact on the life or lack thereof of this planet and our species. Especially since the US is a tiny fragment of the entire world's population, and other countries will not enact the same legislation.




Bottom line: We're fucked one way or another. Fix one problem, another one arises. We're getting to the point now there is too many problems to be fixed at once, and eventually it will lead to a major decrease in the human population, if it doesn't kill us all. Global warming should be at the bottom of our list of things to do (as humans in general, not just the US). Although it is a pretty major problem, eventually it will come down to Humans vs Polar Bears, (or any other animal that faces extinction caused by global warming) which is more important? Human's will always win.

No matter what way we become extinct ourselves, we'll go down swinging, It's instinct.
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Re: Nobel Prize winning economist: "Cap and Trade is Cheap"

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