The HIVE [Quenched]

[cairnswk]

WM. I'm sorry to be the bringer of bad news for your small map, but....
the combination of the 88 and 888 simply overrides the cell names, and with these old tired eyes even with glasses, everything becomes severely blurred and it is hard to tell the cell names apart from the armies.
If i was doing the map, i'd be reducing the overall rows by one or two to allow more eye space, but since that propably isn't in your strategy book for this map, i have to say that i applaud the concept and what you're attempting to do in pushing those boundaries for certain folk but this is one map i won't be winning a medal for. I'll leave that to younger eyes.
Good luck.

[natty dread]

To be fair, in real play there probably won't be a 3-number figure on every territory... at least not in every game.

Also you can just play on the large map.

[cairnswk]

To be fair, in real play there probably won't be a 3-number figure on every territory... at least not in every game.

Also you can just play on the large map.

That is true natty, but i'd have to see how the number comes up with that one also.

[MrBenn]

It is a bit hypnotic with the army numbers on, but we weren't really expecting anything else were we?

Personally I think the map looks better with the softer bevel - but once the numbers are on the map you don't notice it in any case.

As for the territory demarcation, my preference is for >this<

[WidowMakers]

WM. I'm sorry to be the bringer of bad news for your small map, but....
the combination of the 88 and 888 simply overrides the cell names, and with these old tired eyes even with glasses, everything becomes severely blurred and it is hard to tell the cell names apart from the armies.
If i was doing the map, i'd be reducing the overall rows by one or two to allow more eye space, but since that propably isn't in your strategy book for this map, i have to say that i applaud the concept and what you're attempting to do in pushing those boundaries for certain folk but this is one map i won't be winning a medal for. I'll leave that to younger eyes.
Good luck.

I agree with you cairns, the small map is really crowded. But....

1) You can see all borders with the 88 & 888
2) You can see and read all hex names 88 & 888

This will not be a map that someone can rush through and play fast. It will be slow, strategic experience.

Also by reducing the rows by 2, the over height of each cell only grows by 2 pixels (approx). So I would actually need to remove quite a few rows and columns to make each cell substantially bigger. And as you pointed out, it is not the maps purpose to be small.

To be fair, in real play there probably won't be a 3-number figure on every territory... at least not in every game.
Also you can just play on the large map.

My thoughts 100%. There is more space and the Hex names are more bold and stand out easier.

Then again.. perhaps something like solid black squares between the territory names would be even more clear than the x:s. This way you would see instantly where the marked territories are. Now, whichever symbol you use, you have to search for them...

As for the territory demarcation, my preference is for >this<

I will look into other ideas. Just not much room on the small map. lol
Perhaps use teh >< but fill in the ends so there are small arrows on each side.
I know coloring the text is not going to happen.


WM

[porkenbeans]

Ok I started off just wanting to show you what I meant about those bevels. Then before I knew it it was 2 1/2 hours later, and I had this-
[bigimg]http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv12/porkenbeans/HEXmockup.png[/bigimg]HEXMOCKUP.

The size is my recommendation, as it IS very playable. Even for guys like cairns and me.
The grid layout with the letters and numbers, eliminate a whole lot of text on the map.
Also I had an idea about how you can add 30 or more territs without making them any smaller than this. It would require an addition to the coding, that would allow for a button with a link to a separate page, that will list the legend. If CC thought this map was worth the extra whatever it is, that would make it so, I can see this feature very beneficial to future maps in general.

Anyways, I hope you can find something in my suggestions, that you can use.

[WidowMakers]

Ok I started off just wanting to show you what I meant about those bevels. Then before I knew it it was 2 1/2 hours later, and I had this-

The size is my recommendation, as it IS very playable. Even for guys like cairns and me.
The grid layout with the letters and numbers, eliminate a whole lot of text on the map.
Also I had an idea about how you can add 30 or more territs without making them any smaller than this. It would require an addition to the coding, that would allow for a button with a link to a separate page, that will list the legend. If CC thought this map was worth the extra whatever it is, that would make it so, I can see this feature very beneficial to future maps in general.

Anyways, I hope you can find something in my suggestions, that you can use.

Ah Cool. Now I see what you mean. I will try to see if that is possible but I think there is just not enough room on the small map. You entire hex is almost 2X bigger than each of mine. As you have stated it would reduce the number of hexes. And since a major goal of this map is the largest number of terts possible, reducing them is not really productive. I really don't want to cut out 120 territories.

As far as your graphic, it does look very nice and I REALLY like how you did the naming. Very clean and looks good. But there is a problem. People don't like the grid based naming if they need to look up values. It adds to easy mis-drops and movements because they need to read across and can make mistakes. The early version of my map had numbers outside and there were more territories but it was decided that each hex needed its own name for easy identification.

Plus right now you show no legend, colors differentiation and rules. I know you just made it up and did not want to spend time and I understand, but these things would need to be taken into account as well. Those items could further reduce the size and that again is against the maps purpose.

I hope I have been able to explain myself and my reasons for staying where we are now.
But I will try to get that Hex look. My fear is that with the 88 and 888 it will be covered up.

WM

[porkenbeans]

Well after working on the mock up, I seem to have taken an interest in this honeycomb graphic. I did another take off, but after it was almost done, I realized that the cell walls are not really what a honeycomb looks like. The cells are supposed to share the same walls, not have their own individual ones. I have figured out how to do it though. I am going to go ahead and try it. I could always use it to pad my stock images file. I will show it to you when it's done.

BTW,thats 380 here. With the cell walls combined it will afford the room for the legend.
[bigimg]http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv12/porkenbeans/hex2.png[/bigimg]

[WidowMakers]

Changes:
-Reworded Legend
-Added Symbols to specific hexes to represent bonus group naming convention.
-Fixed several alignment issues with text

Pork. I looked into making the hexes look like your but there is just no room. The amount of flat edge you have before the bevel is too much. On the small map there is just too little space for that detail. I do like your hexes better but there is just no room.

Version 16 SMALL
[bigimg]http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/9401/bhsv16.png[/bigimg]
Version 4 LARGE
[bigimg]http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/366/behlv04.png[/bigimg]

[natty dread]

Nice! Those solid arrows are way better than the previous symbols. You find the territories much easier.

Perhaps you could still try the ■A1■ approach, just so we can see how it would look like?

[AndyDufresne]

I didn't even notice the >< for quite some time.

Honey Storage 3 -- is that 'y' obscured by the glob of honey?


--Andy

[WidowMakers]

Nice! Those solid arrows are way better than the previous symbols. You find the territories much easier.

Perhaps you could still try the ■A1■ approach, just so we can see how it would look like?

I guess I can look into that. I don't see any issue

Honey Storage 3 -- is that 'y' obscured by the glob of honey?
--Andy

Yes. I can fix that but I assume that people will be able to tell what it is based on the rest of the text. The distortion just helps add to the look.

[AndyDufresne]

I know, I just wasn't sure if your distortion was deliberate, since I didn't identify any other such places.


--Andy

[WidowMakers]

I know, I just wasn't sure if your distortion was deliberate, since I didn't identify any other such places.


--Andy

Really, Virtually all places covered in honey have distortion: Borders, legend, text.

[AndyDufresne]

Those seem to be where the text is over the honey, not honey over text. But I really don't care about this, was just pointing something out that I was unsure about.


--Andy

[WidowMakers]

Those seem to be where the text is over the honey, not honey over text. But I really don't care about this, was just pointing something out that I was unsure about.


--Andy

The text is never over the honey except the HIVE text for clarity.
The honey is the top layer of my PSD file. Only the 88's are higher.

But on another note. Graphics Stamp??????

[porkenbeans]

I like the large version. It can be read pretty easily. The small version however, is very fuzzy to me. I don't know, maybe it is the font not working as it is scaled down. fonts are funny that way. Some can scale down better than others. Have you tried using a different font. I would recommend doing a little experimenting there.

[cairnswk]

....
But on another note. Graphics Stamp??????

WM. You are a veteran and well recognised member of this community with much experience.
I ask you, can you honestly ask for a graphic stamp when there are issues with the small map font, as expressed by myself and others. If i can't read the small map cell IDs, then I would expect that there will be others out there who will have a similar experience.

[WidowMakers]

I like the large version. It can be read pretty easily. The small version however, is very fuzzy to me. I don't know, maybe it is the font not working as it is scaled down. fonts are funny that way. Some can scale down better than others. Have you tried using a different font. I would recommend doing a little experimenting there.

It is a pixel font. It only really works well that small because the font was designed to be used in these instances. I had to manually create the font for the large map because it did NOT scale up properly and it looked bad.

WM. is there anything that can be done to increase the height of the id cell numbers. {referring to the old LARGE map}
I'm having great difficulty telling 16, 18 ,19 and 20 apart..although they are clearer on the small map than on the large map and look less squashed.

I made the Large text bigger and then you said.

Large Version 3
-Made letters and numbers taller for better readability
...

WM, that is so much better for legibility, thank you!

If i can't read the small map cell IDs, then I would expect that there will be others out there who will have a similar experience.

What about these maps below?

I really don't understand the issue with the text.
It has been almost 3.5 months with the same size text in the small map.
Plus, there are plenty of other maps that have very small text.
The text is pixel font based. It has no anti aliasing. So I don't understand why there is any fuzzy appearance to anyone.
Here are some other small maps with the same size text.

5 pixels tall
[bigimg]http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/9401/bhsv16.png[/bigimg]
5-6 pixels tall
[bigimg]http://maps.conquerclub.com/Charleston.S.jpg[/bigimg]
5-6 pixels tall
[bigimg]http://maps.conquerclub.com/Alexanders_Empire.S.jpg[/bigimg]
5 pixels tall
[bigimg]http://maps.conquerclub.com/BeNeLux.S.jpg[/bigimg]
Lowercase text 5-6 pixels tall
[bigimg]http://maps.conquerclub.com/Berlin_1961.S.jpg[/bigimg]
Lowercase text 5-6 pixels tall
[bigimg]http://maps.conquerclub.com/Discworld.S.jpg[/bigimg]
Lowercase text 6 pixels tall
[bigimg]http://maps.conquerclub.com/Draknor_-_Level_1.S.jpg[/bigimg]
text 6 pixels tall

Lowercase text 5-6 pixels tall
[bigimg]http://maps.conquerclub.com/Europa.S.jpg[/bigimg]
text 6 pixels tall
[bigimg]http://maps.conquerclub.com/Supermax__Prison_Riot!.S.jpg[/bigimg]
text 5-6 pixels tall
[bigimg]http://maps.conquerclub.com/USA.S.jpg[/bigimg]

[cairnswk]

I like the large version. It can be read pretty easily. The small version however, is very fuzzy to me. I don't know, maybe it is the font not working as it is scaled down. fonts are funny that way. Some can scale down better than others. Have you tried using a different font. I would recommend doing a little experimenting there.

It is a pixel font. It only really works well that small because the font was designed to be used in these instances. I had to manually create the font for the large map because it did NOT scale up properly and it looked bad.

If i can't read the small map cell IDs, then I would expect that there will be others out there who will have a similar experience.

What about these maps below?

I really don't understand the issue with the text. There are plenty of other maps that have very small text.
The text is pixel font based. It has no anti aliasing. So I don't understand why there is any fuzzy appearance to anyone.
Here are some other small maps with the same size text.....

I can read the letters on all those small maps (possibly because i know where these names belong and each letter of the alphabet has a different design to it. I can even read your large map here, and i commend you for taking the initiative in designing larger size font for it, you've gone way beyond what i would have, i'd simply have changed the font.

I think the issue here is that this is a grided map, essentially x by y.
Because it is hexes that overlap in the rows [down, up, down, up, down, up etc...] (the columns are fine - they are quite distinct), the lettering in rows 2 & 3, 5 & 6, 8 & 9, 12 & 13, 15 & 16, 18, 19 & 20 are blurry and not distinct.
This means that i end up having to search to a near number that i can recognise and count from there to where i want to examine. This in itself is not a good thing as you well know.
i do not know what else to do about it except trying a different font. Have you explored every possibility there.
Have you explored some alternative way of numbering (I know porkenbeans offered something but i don't think that would be better).
As a complete redesign offer, have you tried taking out the legend at the top, adding a couple of extra rows in there, heighten all the cell rows, to get the small map size and then removing anough cells in the middle of the map to place the legend in the middle...that would possibly give the cells some more room to hold a heightened text like you did with the large map. i don't know if you want to try that, but it might be worth a go to get the deisered play numbers that you want, and of course a large re-design.
But at this stage, i would not be happy letting this go through a graphic stamp if i were foundry forman, because of this legibility issue with having to search for cell IDs and not being able to see them distinctly enough without having to search for them.
I'm sorry WM, i don't want to hold up your progress, but i simply have to say, can you honestly ask for that stamp?

[porkenbeans]

cairn,
It is not the size of the font. It is the font itself. Some fonts work well at small sizes, and some do not. You can increase the size, or look for a different font. It's WM's call, but I believe that it is one or the other. The problem with this font is, it is just to thin to work at that size.

[WidowMakers]

cairn,
It is not the size of the font. It is the font itself. Some fonts work well at small sizes, and some do not. You can increase the size, or look for a different font. It's WM's call, but I believe that it is one or the other. The problem with this font is, it is just to thin to work at that size.

That is what i have been trying to tell you. This font is designed to work at small sizes. That is why it is called a PIXEL font.

http://www.dafont.com/bitmap.php

[gimil]

Could an alternative option for you windowmaker be that you name the columns with a single letter for the entire column below, with each territory only have the number for that territory? So you find column A at the top of the map and scroll down to the number column you want. Don't know how practical that is but it is another option.

[natty dread]

Don't know how practical that is but it is another option.

This has been discussed elsewhere and pretty much everyone seems to think that on large maps like this the territories must be labeled on site, not on the borders. It would give too much of an advantage to people using clicky maps.

[john9blue]

I don't have a problem reading the current font, but my vision is very good. Maybe try a font like the ones on the example maps and see if people like that?