Logic dictates that there is a God!

[jay_a2j]

vtmarik wrote: " And my status as a non-Christian doesn't stop me from approaching the nature of God on a metaphilosophical level. "



............................ or does it?

[thegrimsleeper]

Maybe we're not thinking of the same Divine Plan. The one I've heard about ever since Sunday School told that God had set everything in motion, that everything was going according to his plan, and so on. That you make your actions independently, but since he is omnipotent, he already knows everything that each and every one of us has done and will do. It's all a part of his plan. He gives us free will, sure, but he knows what we will do with it.

This is why i don't believe in Heaven any more than I believe in Hell.

Because assuming that God is an entity, and not a plane of existence, he loves you. And if he loves you, why would he create you to murder, and then, having fulfilled your destiny, His purpose for you, send you to a fiery pit? I don't buy it.

[jay_a2j]

Maybe we're not thinking of the same Divine Plan. The one I've heard about ever since Sunday School told that God had set everything in motion, that everything was going according to his plan, and so on. That you make your actions independently, but since he is omnipotent, he already knows everything that each and every one of us has done and will do. It's all a part of his plan. He gives us free will, sure, but he knows what we will do with it.

This is why i don't believe in Heaven any more than I believe in Hell.

Because assuming that God is an entity, and not a plane of existence, he loves you. And if he loves you, why would he create you to murder, and then, having fulfilled your destiny, His purpose for you, send you to a fiery pit? I don't buy it.

God has given us free will. God does know the future ( what we will do with his gift of free will). He loves each and every person on this planet bar none. He did not create us to murder...."Thou Shall Not Kill" so if we do kill we are doing it because of our free will not because its God's plan.

However, out of evil God can bring about good "all things work together for good for those who love the Lord"

WWII.... thousands of Jews were killed. But because of WWII Isreal became a nation in 1948 (fufilling Biblical prophecy) God made something good happen out of the rubble of evil.


Hell was created for Satan and the other fallen Angels.... God desires nothing more than to spend eternity with you...but He will not force you to turn to Him. If you are with sin you can not spend eternity with Him. But God made a way Jn 3:16.

[Romber]

Because assuming that God is an entity, and not a plane of existence, he loves you. And if he loves you, why would he create you to murder, and then, having fulfilled your destiny, His purpose for you, send you to a fiery pit? I don't buy it.

This is brought up all the time. Would you rather have a free will or be forced to worship him? You would have absolutley no choices.

He also gave you a chance to believe in him. If you dont take it (e.g. you here the message. yewt you dont explore it farther) then you missed youir chance and have failed. Why would God let some one enter his kingdom who has sin in them?

And people murder because we have sin in our lives. This is the cause of the devil. The devil was brought about because of our free-will. Its all a cycle.

[Phate]

Free will cannot truely exist as we can never go back in time to change what we have done.

For example, you have to choose between eating cake or pie for dessert. You believe you have a 'free' choice and decide on the pie and eat it, but how can you now say you ever had the power to choose the cake instead?
Sure you can go ahead and eat the cake now, but you can never make the original choice again, thus you had no power to choose the cake in the first place.

I know it's a bit 'the cat is both alive and dead' logic (if anyone has heard of that situation), but like that, it is undeniable when you think about it.

Free will is just an illusion created by the linear path of time.

[vtmarik]

Free will cannot truely exist as we can never go back in time to change what we have done.

For example, you have to choose between eating cake or pie for dessert. You believe you have a 'free' choice and decide on the pie and eat it, but how can you now say you ever had the power to choose the cake instead?
Sure you can go ahead and eat the cake now, but you can never make the original choice again, thus you had no power to choose the cake in the first place.

I know it's a bit 'the cat is both alive and dead' logic (if anyone has heard of that situation), but like that, it is undeniable when you think about it.

Free will is just an illusion created by the linear path of time.

BALDERCRAP! You change the result by measuring it!

This is brought up all the time. Would you rather have a free will or be forced to worship him? You would have absolutley no choices.

If we had no free will, we wouldn't know that we were being forced to worship him (since we'd have no other alternatives forced away from us) and so would live in complete contentment.

He also gave you a chance to believe in him. If you dont take it (e.g. you here the message. yewt you dont explore it farther) then you missed youir chance and have failed. Why would God let some one enter his kingdom who has sin in them?

And people murder because we have sin in our lives. This is the cause of the devil. The devil was brought about because of our free-will. Its all a cycle.

The snake in the garden of Eden was just a snake dude. It wasn't the Devil in serpent form until Saint Augustine wrote about it in the years preceeding the printed Bible. There's a reason that Saint Augustine and those of his day are called the "Apocryphal Writers:"


[source: dictionary.com]

1. The biblical books included in the Vulgate and accepted in the Roman Catholic and Orthodox canon but considered noncanonical by Protestants because they are not part of the Hebrew Scriptures. See table at Bible.
2. Various early Christian writings proposed as additions to the New Testament but rejected by the major canons.
3. apocrypha Writings or statements of questionable authorship or authenticity.

Sin doesn't exist. It's no more than stupid guilt which is the pitfall of free will. "I wanted that pie, but I chose cake. WHY DID I CHOOSE THE CAKE?! [sob, weep]"

[jay_a2j]

Free will cannot truely exist as we can never go back in time to change what we have done.

For example, you have to choose between eating cake or pie for dessert. You believe you have a 'free' choice and decide on the pie and eat it, but how can you now say you ever had the power to choose the cake instead?
Sure you can go ahead and eat the cake now, but you can never make the original choice again, thus you had no power to choose the cake in the first place.

I know it's a bit 'the cat is both alive and dead' logic (if anyone has heard of that situation), but like that, it is undeniable when you think about it.

Free will is just an illusion created by the linear path of time.

BALDERCRAP! You change the result by measuring it!

This is brought up all the time. Would you rather have a free will or be forced to worship him? You would have absolutley no choices.

If we had no free will, we wouldn't know that we were being forced to worship him (since we'd have no other alternatives forced away from us) and so would live in complete contentment.

He also gave you a chance to believe in him. If you dont take it (e.g. you here the message. yewt you dont explore it farther) then you missed youir chance and have failed. Why would God let some one enter his kingdom who has sin in them?

And people murder because we have sin in our lives. This is the cause of the devil. The devil was brought about because of our free-will. Its all a cycle.

The snake in the garden of Eden was just a snake dude. It wasn't the Devil in serpent form until Saint Augustine wrote about it in the years preceeding the printed Bible. There's a reason that Saint Augustine and those of his day are called the "Apocryphal Writers:"


[source: dictionary.com]

1. The biblical books included in the Vulgate and accepted in the Roman Catholic and Orthodox canon but considered noncanonical by Protestants because they are not part of the Hebrew Scriptures. See table at Bible.
2. Various early Christian writings proposed as additions to the New Testament but rejected by the major canons.
3. apocrypha Writings or statements of questionable authorship or authenticity.

Sin doesn't exist. It's no more than stupid guilt which is the pitfall of free will. "I wanted that pie, but I chose cake. WHY DID I CHOOSE THE CAKE?! [sob, weep]"

you wrote: "If we had no free will, we wouldn't know that we were being forced to worship him (since we'd have no other alternatives forced away from us) and so would live in complete contentment. "


And God wanted to make a creation that chose to love Him. The angels, before the fall of Lucifer, had no free will and they all worshiped God. God wants our love but is it really love if you have no choice? Thats why He gave us free will....it becomes our choice. How can a person say "sin does not exist" unless that person does not believe in God.

If there is no sin...then right and wrong do not exist.

If right and wrong do not exist...then there should be no laws.

Hmmm a senario Satan would love...if he were capable of that emotion.

Satans's two big lies..... 1. there is no sin 2. You are just fine, you don't need God.

[thegrimsleeper]

The angels, before the fall of Lucifer, had no free will and they all worshiped God.

If the angels had no free will, then how was Lucifer able to go against god?

[Jolly Roger]

What is liberal psycho-babble?

[jay_a2j]

The angels, before the fall of Lucifer, had no free will and they all worshiped God.

If the angels had no free will, then how was Lucifer able to go against god?

Lucifer was a very powerful angel and he coveted God's position. He wanted to BE GOD! So God cast him out of Heaven and 1/3 of the angels went with him (demons).

I have heard that God must have given Lucifer the thought to rebel....the start of free will. Lucifer acted on the thought thus commiting the first "sin".

[jay_a2j]

What is liberal psycho-babble?

Well, Its the twisted thinking of a liberal. Like "save the spotted owl" yet "go have an abortion". Like "it takes a village to raise a child" when it takes loving parents.

But thankfully this is not a political thred... cause I get all crazy talking to liberals! lol

[thegrimsleeper]

What is liberal psycho-babble?

Well, Its the twisted thinking of a liberal. Like "save the spotted owl" yet "go have an abortion". Like "it takes a village to raise a child" when it takes loving parents.

Like the thinking of a conservative is so righteous... These are the people who demanded an impeachment of Bill Clinton when he lied about a blowjob, and pretended not to listen when George Bush was busted for lying about his motivations for going to war with Iraq.

The cost of Clinton's lie was his credibility. The cost of Dubya's was thousands of deaths. You tell me which is twisted.

[jay_a2j]

What is liberal psycho-babble?

Well, Its the twisted thinking of a liberal. Like "save the spotted owl" yet "go have an abortion". Like "it takes a village to raise a child" when it takes loving parents.

Like the thinking of a conservative is so righteous... These are the people who demanded an impeachment of Bill Clinton when he lied about a blowjob, and pretended not to listen when George Bush was busted for lying about his motivations for going to war with Iraq.

The cost of Clinton's lie was his credibility. The cost of Dubya's was thousands of deaths. You tell me which is twisted.

This is not a political thred.

The thing about Clinton was not the subject of the lie but that he lied under OATH! (which is a crime)


Bush has not lied at least that can be proven. Its all liberal heresay. Bush said his reasons for going to war...did he ever say, "Ya know, I lied about why I took us to war..it was about oil." NO, he did not so there is no lie and there is no oath.

[vtmarik]

If there is no sin...then right and wrong do not exist.

If right and wrong do not exist...then there should be no laws.

Hmmm a senario Satan would love...if he were capable of that emotion.

Satans's two big lies..... 1. there is no sin 2. You are just fine, you don't need God.

First off, you are confusing "sin" with "ethics." Ethics is the sense of right and wrong. Sin is the idea that we have committed some kind of irreparable crime against God. Tell me, how does saying "God damn it" condemn me to hell?

And can we please avoid using the word "law" anywhere near religion? When religion gets next to law things go screwy.

[Machiavelli]

What is liberal psycho-babble?

Well, Its the twisted thinking of a liberal. Like "save the spotted owl" yet "go have an abortion". Like "it takes a village to raise a child" when it takes loving parents.

But thankfully this is not a political thred... cause I get all crazy talking to liberals! lol

Both sides are hypocrites. How about this: You are Pro-life with a "war president" as he calls himself.

[vtmarik]

Ok, everyone, I have to be a voice of reason since we are now so entirely far off topic that we need a satellite if we even hope of locating it again.

I'd say that we're kinda done here. We're all wrong because we all cannot prove our cases. The claimant of this thread failed to provide any logic that shows that God exists (since you cannot prove the divine without eliminating the need for faith and thus killing it). The rest of us have failed to show any proof otherwise because you cannot logically prove a negative.

So, let's just all put down our withering bon mots and go back to killing each other of the varied fields of battle.

I hereby ask that this thread be closed due to the fact that all we're doing at this point is going around and around in circles.

[thegrimsleeper]

I love this guy!!!

[jay_a2j]

What is liberal psycho-babble?

Well, Its the twisted thinking of a liberal. Like "save the spotted owl" yet "go have an abortion". Like "it takes a village to raise a child" when it takes loving parents.

But thankfully this is not a political thred... cause I get all crazy talking to liberals! lol

Both sides are hypocrites. How about this: You are Pro-life with a "war president" as he calls himself.

I agree. I just tend to go with the lesser of the two evils

[thegrimsleeper]

What is liberal psycho-babble?

Well, Its the twisted thinking of a liberal. Like "save the spotted owl" yet "go have an abortion". Like "it takes a village to raise a child" when it takes loving parents.

But thankfully this is not a political thred... cause I get all crazy talking to liberals! lol

Both sides are hypocrites. How about this: You are Pro-life with a "war president" as he calls himself.

I agree. I just tend to go with the lesser of the two evils

**Stares in disbelief... shakes head, then walks away.**

______________________________
I owe you one, Andy!

[Romber]

marik, you think there is no sin in the world?? lol. Im talking about the christian faith. Catholic faith is a whole nother deal. The serpant was the devil and it was the one who brought sin into world. Because of our free will we were forced down from heavenly lifestyles (in other words, perfect life styles. Free of sickness, disease and death)

[howie]

God gave us free will, means people can choose any religion they like.

[Semanticprison]

God gave us science so we can empirically prove he doesnt exist.

[vtmarik]

marik, you think there is no sin in the world?? lol. Im talking about the christian faith. Catholic faith is a whole nother deal. The serpant was the devil and it was the one who brought sin into world. Because of our free will we were forced down from heavenly lifestyles (in other words, perfect life styles. Free of sickness, disease and death)

Ah.... Alright then....

You do know that Catholicism was the first Christian faith right? I mean, all of the other denominations didn't show up until the 15th Century when Martin Luther nailed his Ninety-Five Theses to the door of the Wittenberg Church.

[howie]

God gave us science so we can empirically prove he doesnt exist.

They havent proved that he don't exist though

[vtmarik]

God gave us science so we can empirically prove he doesnt exist.

They havent proved that he don't exist though

Or is that what Satan wants us to think?