Some thoughts for non-believers

[mpjh]

I was on one of my frequent walks through the Chihuahua desert and ran low on water. After resting in the shade of a giant yucca, I decided to try and make it back to base camp in the heat of the day. Wrong move. Half way there, out of water, and in the searing sun, I met up with two beings arguing. Each had huge feather wings, and glowed with a light not from the hot sun. I knew in my gut that I was dealing with angels. They argued loudly, each accusing the other of "betraying" the "lord." I got the impression that one came from the exiled and one from the favorites. I decided to intervene. I walked up close and put one hand on each of the angels. The sensation was exhilarating. I said "Can't we all get get along." The angels were thunderstruck, turned to each other and embraced. The embrace went on for some time -- I got uncomfortable and backed away. They then started making out and humping right there on the desert floor. I guess the rift in heaven is over.

Miraculously, I was able to make it back to base camp without need for any more water.

[notyou2]

I was on one of my frequent walks through the Chihuahua desert and ran low on water. After resting in the shade of a giant yucca, I decided to try and make it back to base camp in the heat of the day. Wrong move. Half way there, out of water, and in the searing sun, I met up with two beings arguing. Each had huge feather wings, and glowed with a light not from the hot sun. I knew in my gut that I was dealing with angels. They argued loudly, each accusing the other of "betraying" the "lord." I got the impression that one came from the exiled and one from the favorites. I decided to intervene. I walked up close and put one hand on each of the angels. The sensation was exhilarating. I said "Can't we all get get along." The angels were thunderstruck, turned to each other and embraced. The embrace went on for some time -- I got uncomfortable and backed away. They then started making out and humping right there on the desert floor. I guess the rift in heaven is over.

Miraculously, I was able to make it back to base camp without need for any more water.

Are "the angels" metaphors for DM and AAF?

[mpjh]

No, this is what I really witnessed.

[AAFitz]

Interesting... although I'm not that concerned because many great thinkers were religious. There are definitely more impressionable types in the lower IQ range who are less likely to question religious dogma.

Where is your evidence of that. My experience has been that IQ is only a social construct, and that "higher" IQ people are simply closer to the elite of the mainstream and more likely to agree with the prevailing ideology; while lower "IQ" people are more likely the oppressed in that society and more likely to challange the prevailing ideology. So I see quite the opposite of what you claim.

Oh really? Then perhaps you should research the percentage of a poor population's belief in God, with a more affluent one. Across the board, the more suffering, the less educated, and the tougher the life, the more people believe and more strenuously the people believe in God. Unfortunately, in some places, its all they have. Its simply ridiculous to suggest that a poor country, with people starving is rebelling against the system, and thinking about the different arguments for God or against. They are praying every day, in hopes that their children survive, and while I have no doubt they question the existence of God, I also suspect, they dont give it too much thought, because for many unfortunately, all they have to be happy, is the promise of a life after this one that is full of joy, because they just lived an entire one in misery.

I agree it isnt about Intelligence per-se, and that the IQ test is obviously affected by education, nutrition, and many other factors. But the more people are educated, certainly it seems the less likely they are as a population to believe. I believed for half of my life myself, and if I lived in a sheltered world, and didnt see everything that was happening in the world, all the different religions, all of the different psychological aspects of humans, and how they have evolved, and didnt ponder, and to some degree study them as much as I have, then I too might never have questioned my beliefs.

And while every case is different, for me, I simply stopped believing, because the rational side of my brain simply just didnt believe it any more. It analyzed all the facts, and factors, and simply stopped believing in something, that it felt realistically didnt exist. Believing in make believe is very easy, it just takes a leap of faith and a little imagination. Its something that humans are uniquely able to do, and very well at that. For me there have just been too many examples in history of entire civilizations believing in these constructs, which are no different than the Gods that people believe in today, to make me think that there is actually one real God, and that entire civilizations and groups have been wrong about thiers, but that there is actually one out there that got lucky enough to believe in the correct one.

I simply dont believe a God of Pure Good, absent of evil, would make it that difficult to believe in him. And while everyone who believes will simply say its the peoples fault...well, thats like saying the group of chipmunks that got burned in a fire was wrong, and the group that got missed by the fire were right....its just pure simple luck, and while its a nice self defense argument for someone who does choose to believe, the argument doesn't hold any logical weight. Like so many other things in most religions, they simply dont make sense, and are contradictory on a basic level.

In the end, the basic argument for religion, is that people cant believe that something so incredible as the planet earth and the cosmos simply happened without purpose, and by accident. Its too much of a leap of faith, and for some strange reason, its easier for them to believe that something, or someone created it, and only....and I mean ONLY because someone told them that someone created it. If you were born egyptian, you believed in RA, in Greece, greek mythology, isreal: judaism, Ireland, christianity....or...wican before christianity....

For the great percentage of the population of the planet, people simply believe in the God they were told to believe in, and never question it for their entire lives. Mostly, its because the human brain knows full well, how dangerous it is to stop believing, or even question inherent beliefs that were learned very early in life. It resists them, because somehow biologically, it knows that questioning them, will be far more difficult, and possibly even traumatic both consciously, and sub-consciously. Further, believing in God is infinitely the safer option. For a non-believer, they accept the fact that they will spend eternity with punishment of some kind for not believing. For a believer who believes till their last breath, they will never pay a price for their belief. For their entire lives, and for eternity, they will know they were correct, because if they are wrong, they will simply never know it.

[mpjh]

Pure bunkum. The United States is the most religious country in the world (at least before the Great Recession). The poor throughout the world resist domination by religion and constantly question why they should believe in a god that totally lacks compassion.

[AAFitz]

Pure bunkum. The United States is the most religious country in the world (at least before the Great Recession). The poor throughout the world resist domination by religion and constantly question why they should believe in a god that totally lacks compassion.

Pure Fantasy.... The United States is barely religious at all. We have people who claim to believe, but they do barely nothing to show it for the most part. Maybe, some go to church on Sundays, but most dont even do that. In the actual religious parts of the world, the people spend every day worshiping their God, and abide by the rules till death.

On the whole, the country is so fragmented in its beliefs, that its impossible to call it the most religious, even blasphemous if you will.

[PLAYER57832]

Pure bunkum. The United States is the most religious country in the world (at least before the Great Recession). The poor throughout the world resist domination by religion and constantly question why they should believe in a god that totally lacks compassion.

Pure Fantasy.... The United States is barely religious at all. We have people who claim to believe, but they do barely nothing to show it for the most part. Maybe, some go to church on Sundays, but most dont even do that. In the actual religious parts of the world, the people spend every day worshiping their God, and abide by the rules till death.

On the whole, the country is so fragmented in its beliefs, that its impossible to call it the most religious, even blasphemous if you will.

You are both wrong. Over 90% of those in the US believe in God. An overwhelming majority describe themselves as "religious" or "spiritual".

The numbers are even higher in poorer areas. They may despair at God/gods, but most cannot even conceive of a world without religious belief.

[Neoteny]

No no, what AAFitz is saying is that Americans aren't "truly" religious, which means they don't match up with what he considers "religious." It's a pompous ass thing.

[mpjh]

Pure bunkum. The United States is the most religious country in the world (at least before the Great Recession). The poor throughout the world resist domination by religion and constantly question why they should believe in a god that totally lacks compassion.

Pure Fantasy.... The United States is barely religious at all. We have people who claim to believe, but they do barely nothing to show it for the most part. Maybe, some go to church on Sundays, but most dont even do that. In the actual religious parts of the world, the people spend every day worshiping their God, and abide by the rules till death.

On the whole, the country is so fragmented in its beliefs, that its impossible to call it the most religious, even blasphemous if you will.

You are both wrong. Over 90% of those in the US believe in God. An overwhelming majority describe themselves as "religious" or "spiritual".

The numbers are even higher in poorer areas. They may despair at God/gods, but most cannot even conceive of a world without religious belief.

Sorry, but all the socialists and communists that are getting elected around the world are in the poorer areas, and their support is among the poorest of those areas. No, religion is not their friend and they know it.

[AAFitz]

No no, what AAFitz is saying is that Americans aren't "truly" religious, which means they don't match up with what he considers "religious." It's a pompous ass thing.

Its more of a realistic ass thing. But thanks for clarifying. I knew before he posted, Id have to come back and explain.

If you chose that saying you believe, and not acting in accordance with those beliefs, or showing them in nearly any way makes you "religious", and just as much as "religious" as others who clearly devote their lives and actions to those beliefs, than thats fine...

Add me to your stats then: I believe. I guess Im "religious" now...just ignore the fact that my actions will not reflect this in any way whatsoever, and the fact that Im simply making it up.

Ironically, I am more religious than many professed believers, which is where your incorrect assesment of pompous came from. I actually believe in the teachings of the church, the teachings of Jesus himself, and try to live my life guided by those principles as much as I possibly can. It just so happens that I believe in them, because I believe they are a just and admirable way to live a life, not because they came from a supernatural power. It is knowing these principles, and seeing those that pretend to believe in the originator of them, and then ignoring every aspect of them, that allows me to not consider them religious.

Its not pompous...its educated.

Pompous might be someone who, in professing to believe in Jesus, would in his supposed defense, resort to personal quips and character assassinations. It would also be ironic. It would of course not be novel.... Religious people have been using their beliefs in an effort to control others since the dawn of religion itself.

[PLAYER57832]

No no, what AAFitz is saying is that Americans aren't "truly" religious, which means they don't match up with what he considers "religious." It's a pompous ass thing.

Its more of a realistic ass thing. But thanks for clarifying his error. I knew before he posted, Id have to come back and explain.

Here is my source:
http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

The number of atheists and the numbers of people who switch from one church to another is increasing, but American is still overwhelmingly religious.

Do not confuse disdain for church with disdain for religion. If you asked me what church I belong to, my answer would be somewhat complicated. I am a member of one church, but attend it only sometimes, send my kids to Sunday school elsewhere and have them involved in youth programs affiliated with yet another church. However, I am absolutely Christian.

[AAFitz]

No no, what AAFitz is saying is that Americans aren't "truly" religious, which means they don't match up with what he considers "religious." It's a pompous ass thing.

Its more of a realistic ass thing. But thanks for clarifying his error. I knew before he posted, Id have to come back and explain.

Here is my source:
http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

The number of atheists and the numbers of people who switch from one church to another is increasing, but American is still overwhelmingly religious.

Do not confuse disdain for church with disdain for religion. If you asked me what church I belong to, my answer would be somewhat complicated. I am a member of one church, but attend it only sometimes, send my kids to Sunday school elsewhere and have them involved in youth programs affiliated with yet another church. However, I am absolutely Christian.

You are truly religious, and obviously try to live your life according to the beliefs of your religion. I am more referring to those who pretend to believe, and then live their lives completely contradictory to those beliefs. They are no more religious than someone who calls themselves a Star Wars fanatic, who has never seen the movie. Sure, statistically, they might be counted, but that doesnt mean they are actually Star Wars fanatics. Whether they think they are or not is irrelevant.

[PLAYER57832]

Pure bunkum. The United States is the most religious country in the world (at least before the Great Recession). The poor throughout the world resist domination by religion and constantly question why they should believe in a god that totally lacks compassion.

Pure Fantasy.... The United States is barely religious at all. We have people who claim to believe, but they do barely nothing to show it for the most part. Maybe, some go to church on Sundays, but most dont even do that. In the actual religious parts of the world, the people spend every day worshiping their God, and abide by the rules till death.

On the whole, the country is so fragmented in its beliefs, that its impossible to call it the most religious, even blasphemous if you will.

You are both wrong. Over 90% of those in the US believe in God. An overwhelming majority describe themselves as "religious" or "spiritual".

The numbers are even higher in poorer areas. They may despair at God/gods, but most cannot even conceive of a world without religious belief.

Sorry, but all the socialists and communists that are getting elected around the world are in the poorer areas, and their support is among the poorest of those areas. No, religion is not their friend and they know it.

Spread of communism is not necessarily tied to demise of religion. Ironically, I have always found the economic communistic model to be very similar to what Christ preached (take care of one another, give up all and follow me, it is harder for a rich man to get to heavan than to take a camel through the eye of the needle, etc.) I am not saying that we have to be communist to be Christian (far from it!), just that it strikes me as ironic that they are so often labeled polar opposites.

I tried to find a study similar to the one conducted of US religions, but found instead just a mixture of various articles on impacts of specific religions, impacts of religion on development, etc.

However, while I found talk of people switching religions and so forth, more talked of strong returns to fundamentalism (within various religions) and also growth of the more charismatic types of Christianity (though those articles were by people I know to be conservative charismatic Christian speakers).

I would ask for your source that religion is not spreading.

[PLAYER57832]

You are truly religious, and obviously try to live your life according to the beliefs of your religion. I am more referring to those who pretend to believe, and then live their lives completely contradictory to those beliefs. They are no more religious than someone who calls themselves a Star Wars fanatic, who has never seen the movie. Sure, statistically, they might be counted, but that doesnt mean they are actually Star Wars fanatics. Whether they think they are or not is irrelevant.

I would say that I try to be religious, do believe and try to follow the precepts. But the truth is that is for everyone.

I understand and partially agree with what you are saying, but the truth is also that religion is not about being perfect or following our religions perfectly, particularly not Christianity. As the Pastor said this past Sunday "people say that church is full of hypocrites. They are absolutely CORRECT! Church is a place where hypocrites go to try to become better." Only God knows what is truly in someone's heart. I can give story after story of someone who seemed a bad example, but who, when push came to shove pulled forward... and of the opposite. Both are reality, but also irrelevant.

If we were not hypocrites, we would not need God and Christ so much. That is why your statement is ironic as much as truth.

[jonesthecurl]

No no, what AAFitz is saying is that Americans aren't "truly" religious, which means they don't match up with what he considers "religious." It's a pompous ass thing.

Its more of a realistic ass thing. But thanks for clarifying his error. I knew before he posted, Id have to come back and explain.

Here is my source:
http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

The number of atheists and the numbers of people who switch from one church to another is increasing, but American is still overwhelmingly religious.

Do not confuse disdain for church with disdain for religion. If you asked me what church I belong to, my answer would be somewhat complicated. I am a member of one church, but attend it only sometimes, send my kids to Sunday school elsewhere and have them involved in youth programs affiliated with yet another church. However, I am absolutely Christian.

You are truly religious, and obviously try to live your life according to the beliefs of your religion. I am more referring to those who pretend to believe, and then live their lives completely contradictory to those beliefs. They are no more religious than someone who calls themselves a Star Wars fanatic, who has never seen the movie. Sure, statistically, they might be counted, but that doesnt mean they are actually Star Wars fanatics. Whether they think they are or not is irrelevant.

But this thread is about whether people think there's a creator, not how moral they are.
You could believe in the Great Green Arkleseizure and you'd count as a believer for the purposes of the thread, which attempts to say "Hey, look at this - explain that away if you can, atheists!"

[Neoteny]

No no, what AAFitz is saying is that Americans aren't "truly" religious, which means they don't match up with what he considers "religious." It's a pompous ass thing.

Its more of a realistic ass thing. But thanks for clarifying. I knew before he posted, Id have to come back and explain.

If you chose that saying you believe, and not acting in accordance with those beliefs, or showing them in nearly any way makes you "religious", and just as much as "religious" as others who clearly devote their lives and actions to those beliefs, than thats fine...

Add me to your stats then: I believe. I guess Im "religious" now...just ignore the fact that my actions will not reflect this in any way whatsoever, and the fact that Im simply making it up.

Ironically, I am more religious than many professed believers, which is where your incorrect assesment of pompous came from. I actually believe in the teachings of the church, the teachings of Jesus himself, and try to live my life guided by those principles as much as I possibly can. It just so happens that I believe in them, because I believe they are a just and admirable way to live a life, not because they came from a supernatural power. It is knowing these principles, and seeing those that pretend to believe in the originator of them, and then ignoring every aspect of them, that allows me to not consider them religious.

Its not pompous...its educated.

Pompous might be someone who, in professing to believe in Jesus, would in his supposed defense, resort to personal quips and character assassinations. It would also be ironic. It would of course not be novel.... Religious people have been using their beliefs in an effort to control others since the dawn of religion itself.

It is pompous, and I'll tell you why it is so. You are correct in saying that there are people who profess a belief in something, and act in a manner that contradicts that belief. I would even say that is not an exceedingly rare occurrence. But what you are saying is that a vast majority of people in the United States are hypocrites when it comes to their religion. I won't say that there isn't a number who are, but the fact of the matter is that you can give the benefit of the doubt to most people. Would you say that a person who is trying to, oh, I dunno, be nicer to poor people as a facet of their religion, and they pass a homeless person without a glance, even though they have some spare change or something, is not truly religious? Perhaps they feel terrible about it later, and ask for forgiveness. Maybe they know the homeless person is a fraud. The point is, there are many people who act one way, and intend to act the opposite, for whatever reason, be it a failing or whatever. Additionally, there are just simple differences of opinion. Just because one person thinks church attendance should be mandatory, and the other does not does not make either person more or less religious. There are so many ways to interpret a single religious text that it's completely ridiculous.

Now we come to you. You are basing your opinions of these people on your own perception of a limited sample. There are surely people you've met that are hypocrites. But you are puffing yourself up as some arbiter of the state of religiosity of the entire country based on your limited experience. You can act the way you say you believe all you want, but that does not give you the authority to condemn others you have not met for the actions of people that have no effect on them. I think there's a Bible verse about that.

And that is why your statement, as quoted below, was a pompous thing to say.

Pure Fantasy.... The United States is barely religious at all. We have people who claim to believe, but they do barely nothing to show it for the most part. Maybe, some go to church on Sundays, but most dont even do that. In the actual religious parts of the world, the people spend every day worshiping their God, and abide by the rules till death.

The way I'm seeing this, the people in the "religious parts of the world" merely follow their religions in a manner that you consider to be "religiously." For others, that would be overzealous, and they may still be religious, and hypocritical in the least.

[mpjh]

Thanks so much for saying absolutely nothing, unfortunately I read through it.

[Neoteny]

If only it would keep you away...

[Juan_Bottom]

Picture related

[jesterhawk]

jesterhawk, can you point me to the part in the bible where the devil's rebellion is described in as great detail as in your post? I've never been able to find it.

Sure:

Isaiah 14:10-16
Ezekiel 28:12-19
Revelation 12

Regarding your illness, I'm glad you recovered from it, but doctors aren't infallible, so yes, you "just" got really really lucky.

To quote from my favorite movie, "In my experience there is no such thing as luck!"

Did God deliberately make "the Devil" evil?

The above passages make it clear that God did create the devil but that he was the star of the morning (Isaiah 14:12), an anointed cherub (Ezekiel 28:14), and blameless until he turned to evil (Ezekiel 28:15). Now one could argue that God knew he would turn to evil, but that was not what he was created for it was what he choose. Just like we were not created to murder, rape, steal, etc, but we choose to do those things.

I was on one of my frequent walks through the Chihuahua desert and ran low on water. After resting in the shade of a giant yucca, I decided to try and make it back to base camp in the heat of the day. Wrong move. Half way there, out of water, and in the searing sun, I met up with two beings arguing. Each had huge feather wings, and glowed with a light not from the hot sun. I knew in my gut that I was dealing with angels. They argued loudly, each accusing the other of "betraying" the "lord." I got the impression that one came from the exiled and one from the favorites. I decided to intervene. I walked up close and put one hand on each of the angels. The sensation was exhilarating. I said "Can't we all get get along." The angels were thunderstruck, turned to each other and embraced. The embrace went on for some time -- I got uncomfortable and backed away. They then started making out and humping right there on the desert floor. I guess the rift in heaven is over.

Miraculously, I was able to make it back to base camp without need for any more water.

I am glad that you made it back safely. As for the rest, the war or rift between God and the devil is not over yet.



Love in Christ,
JH

[mpjh]

Hey, I saw it end right there in the desert.

[jonesthecurl]

...so did God plan for Lucifer to turn to evil?

[PLAYER57832]

...so did God plan for Lucifer to turn to evil?

Plan.. no.

Allow it to happen, know that when he made Lucifer the way he was it would happen.. yes.

[jonesthecurl]

...so did God plan for Lucifer to turn to evil?

Plan.. no.

Allow it to happen, know that when he made Lucifer the way he was it would happen.. yes.

So he made a clockwork toy, wound it up, put it down, and it wasn't his fault when it walked off the edge of the table?

[Juan_Bottom]