Land of the Free

[comic boy]

Comic boy, just wondering, what exactly is the point of this thread? I'm getting the following impressions:

(1) You don't approve of the U.S. prison population and are wondering what suggestions some might have to reduce the prison population.
(2) You don't approve of the U.S. prison population and use the U.S. prison population as evidence that people who think the U.S. is the best country in the world are mentally deficient.
(3) You don't approve of the U.S. military because they exist to kill people living in third world countries.

Are these points correct? Are there other points you are trying to make? If someone else wants to answer for comic boy, I'm all ears... er, eyes.

1) Spot on.
2) Yes to the first part, substitute blinkered for mentaly deficient and the second part would be correct.
3) I dont like much of what the US military has done in the last few decades but would not agree with your statement, and I did not introduce the US military into this thread.

The actual point of this thread is to question the concept of freedom in a society that denies it to so many , often for pretty trivial offences. Is it not narrow minded to laud opportunity and free speech whilst neglecting to recognise the obvious social inequality felt by large segments of the population. The USA is far from alone in this respect but it seems above all other nations to enjoy shouting its virtues whilst rabidly denouncing any view to the contrary.

[neanderpaul14]

yeah and "home of the brave" bombing the shit out of the 3rd world, (wait let me get a dictionary).. yes, actually that IS the definition of bravery.. its right here "Bravery (noun); hitting someone who are unable to defend themselves"

You must be talking about the people who park car bombs outside of places of worship and kill innocent people just to kill someone in government. Or the people who kidnap foreigners and slit their throats or cut their heads off. Or maybe the ones who hijack a cruise ship and kill and man and throw his body in his wheelchair overboard.

I guess my dictionary was not bought at the same store as yours.

yeah and "home of the brave" bombing the shit out of the 3rd world, (wait let me get a dictionary).. yes, actually that IS the definition of bravery.. its right here "Bravery (noun); hitting someone who are unable to defend themselves"

Wow a German giving sh*t to an American for beating up on weaker people, of course everyone knows that the Germans would never attack or kill weaker people, or those who couldn't defend themselves,......oh wait a minute never mind.

Wow. You tried to retort the argument that horrible things are going on right now by the US and this should change by alluding to wars and atrocities committed by people from the same country but those probably committed far before his time and. Nice to see you focusing on trying to prove why the US is the land of the free and not resorting to ad hominems. Oh wait.

Why not? Wasn't that one of the worst atrocities ever committed? Is there a time limit on atrocities? What about the atrocities committed by the people we are fighting? Or don't those count?

Atrocities that are happening right now should have attention drawn to them and are important.

"Well your country committed atrocities, too" is not an argument. Anonymus was not in way related to that besides being born in the same country.

Ummmm........okay so the only way he is related to any atrocities committed by Germany is that he happens to be German, well FYI the vast majority of Americans have never flown a bomber, served in the military, or even fired a gun in anger. So by your reasoning America is mostly expunged of responsibility.

[HapSmo19]

I've actually studied to root causes behind crime...

So what are they(the root causes)?

There normally divided into 3 areas - social environment, economic factors and family structures. Heres a basic guide to it, but there are much more detailed studies/book/publication if you are truly interested in it. http://www.preventingcrime.net/library/ ... _Crime.pdf

OK. So start at family structures(the closest you're gonna get to the true root of the problem) and fix that. Oh yeah, fix it without spending mine or anyone elses money. Or cry me a river. Thanks.

There's plenty of people that grow up poor as dirt and make something of themselves.

[jonesthecurl]

Just one tangential comment here. Haps - if the prison population could be halved, it's tax money that would be saved through not having to feed clothe guard etc the prisoners.

[mpjh]

Yes, but then how would American society act on its inordinate fear of young black men?

[Phatscotty]

Yes, but then how would American society act on its inordinate fear of young black men?

sorry to jump in, just saying a huge chunk of american society is young black men

[HapSmo19]

...and I think he's confusing young men with gang-bangers and fear with disgust.

[Burrito]

I've actually studied to root causes behind crime...

So what are they(the root causes)?

There normally divided into 3 areas - social environment, economic factors and family structures. Heres a basic guide to it, but there are much more detailed studies/book/publication if you are truly interested in it. http://www.preventingcrime.net/library/ ... _Crime.pdf

Well first off, this study is Canadian, which means less correlation to America.

Second, you are making it sound like society is to blame for what criminals do. That is ridiculous. They are responsible fro what they do, no one else.

[HapSmo19]

Just one tangential comment here. Haps - if the prison population could be halved, it's tax money that would be saved through not having to feed clothe guard etc the prisoners.

California is working on this. It oughta be good

[mpjh]

California is being forced, correctly, to let 17,000 of the political prisoners out.

[joecoolfrog]

I've actually studied to root causes behind crime...

So what are they(the root causes)?

There normally divided into 3 areas - social environment, economic factors and family structures. Heres a basic guide to it, but there are much more detailed studies/book/publication if you are truly interested in it. http://www.preventingcrime.net/library/ ... _Crime.pdf

Well first off, this study is Canadian, which means less correlation to America.

Second, you are making it sound like society is to blame for what criminals do. That is ridiculous. They are responsible fro what they do, no one else.

Are you seriously asserting that people are born with a penchant for criminal behaviour, that thier social environment plays no part in their development and subsequent actions. The fact is that the average urban black kid is far more likely to end up with jail time then a middle class white kid , they can break exactly the same law but influence and discrimination prevails. The white kid will get a slap on the wrist, likely learn his lesson and carry on through college, the black kid will have a shortened education and the stigma of jail , making his job prospects slim .

[GabonX]

California is being forced, correctly, to let 17,000 of the political prisoners out.

How many of them have killed someone?

How many will kill someone once released?

[thegreekdog]

The actual point of this thread is to question the concept of freedom in a society that denies it to so many , often for pretty trivial offences. Is it not narrow minded to laud opportunity and free speech whilst neglecting to recognise the obvious social inequality felt by large segments of the population. The USA is far from alone in this respect but it seems above all other nations to enjoy shouting its virtues whilst rabidly denouncing any view to the contrary.

I agree with you for the most part. I find many of the anti-drug laws to be ridiculous, as well as the sentences for those laws. That being said, I don't blame the enforcement of those laws, but rather the laws themselves. As someone might have suggested, if we make illegal drugs legal, we will have a much-reduced prison population. Whether that's good or bad is debatable (I tend to think it's good).

However, if we're talking about "freedom" in a grandiose context here (I think we are), in terms of free speech, free religion, etc., etc., I'm not really sure one can, in good faith, determine that the USA is narrow-minded to laud opportunity and free speech because it makes certain drugs illegal. In other words, a part of your discussion is that because the US makes drugs illegal, the US cannot be the bastion of freedom. I think that's pretty ridiculous, but that's just me.

On the social inequality argument... I'm not sure social inequality and freedom are mutually inclusive concepts. Therefore, a socially unequal society is not necessarily one lacking in freedom. Similarly, a socially equal society is not one that is flush with freedom.

Therefore, I think we need to identify concepts (speech, press, religion, and others) and determine the level of "freedom" that a country grants to people who want to practice those concepts (for lack of a better phrase).

[MeDeFe]

On the social inequality argument... I'm not sure social inequality and freedom are mutually inclusive concepts. Therefore, a socially unequal society is not necessarily one lacking in freedom. Similarly, a socially equal society is not one that is flush with freedom.

Therefore, I think we need to identify concepts (speech, press, religion, and others) and determine the level of "freedom" that a country grants to people who want to practice those concepts (for lack of a better phrase).

Social (economic) inequality breeds hierarchies of power and control, hierarchies have a tendency to perpetuate themselves because those on top want to stay there. Spoon-feeding people slogans like "anyone can make it if they just work hard", "everyone forges their own destiny", "if you don't like it, leave" and of course the usually completely unrelated "go live in China" seems to have worked quite well. Far better than openly oppressing them. When people don't know, don't believe or, even worse, don't care they're being ripped off they're the easiest to control, and no number of guns and constitutional amendments will help them, whatever the lobbyists for that industry claim.
Freedom of speech is useless if people have nothing original to say but only parrot what they hear on TV and talk radio. Media is only as free as its sponsors allow it to be, and guess who sponsors the media. Right, big business, people on top of the food chain who want to stay there.

Add this notion of "trickle-down economics", "US companies" (that somehow largely operate overseas) and how they need tax-breaks to thrive and there's a perfect excuse for giving the richest people even more money and increasing the inequality.

Guns and bombs finally ceased being the main means by which war is waged after 1945, with telecommunications appearing on the scene information became the new WMD. If you control what people know and what they accept as "true" (whether this "truth" is factual or not) you can control the people.


I'll agree with you that a socially equal society is not a guarantee for freedom by itself, but a society as inequal as things currently are is a real threat to freedom.

[thegreekdog]

Although I love the United States (and its attendant freedoms and opportunities), I won't presume to try to convince people that we don't have major problems, some of which actually have to do with freedom. For example, a big problem I have is the prior use and continued use of surveillance and other "search" measures by the federal government, and what those laws could do to our freedoms.

That being said, I also agree that there are economic/opportunity problems here in the US. However, I think that has little to do with government intervention or lack thereof, and more to do with some societal problems that this country faces. For example, in addition to those medefe has mentioned (the media and big business), too little emphasis is placed on education, too much emphasis is placed on celebrity. That being said, some of these problems (media, business, education) may be applicable in countries other than the US. So, I guess the common wisdom that the US is the bastion of freedom may be slipping, but I don't really see another country coming to take that distinction. If you all have some examples...

[Titanic]

I've actually studied to root causes behind crime...

So what are they(the root causes)?

There normally divided into 3 areas - social environment, economic factors and family structures. Heres a basic guide to it, but there are much more detailed studies/book/publication if you are truly interested in it. http://www.preventingcrime.net/library/ ... _Crime.pdf

OK. So start at family structures(the closest you're gonna get to the true root of the problem) and fix that. Oh yeah, fix it without spending mine or anyone elses money. Or cry me a river. Thanks.

There's plenty of people that grow up poor as dirt and make something of themselves.

You don't just try fixing one of them, you have to tackle all 3 factors and within each factor you have primary, secondary and tertiary solutions. It will cost money to sort out the problem, but in the long run the benefits gained far outweigh any costs. It is cheaper to invest in primary factors then to pay the costs to society of crime taking place.

Well first off, this study is Canadian, which means less correlation to America.

Second, you are making it sound like society is to blame for what criminals do. That is ridiculous. They are responsible fro what they do, no one else.

So what if its Canadian? The root causes of crime are exactly the same in all western nations its just the factors are more prevalent in the USA, hence the ridiculously large prison population. Also, I am not saying the criminals are not responsible for what they do, just thats its been proven that certain situations or influences in society lead to a higher rate of crime and to beat crime it is these factors which should be tackled rather then having the whole crime policy involving locking people up.

For example, in addition to those medefe has mentioned (the media and big business), too little emphasis is placed on education, too much emphasis is placed on celebrity. That being said, some of these problems (media, business, education) may be applicable in countries other than the US. So, I guess the common wisdom that the US is the bastion of freedom may be slipping, but I don't really see another country coming to take that distinction. If you all have some examples...

Agree with the first part, people like Paris Hilton and Jade Goody are seen as "role models" whilst "geeks" are downtrodden and given bad reputations. The media, business and education problems are applicable in other countries as well, but I don't think to the degree that the USA has. I don't know of any other legislature which is in the pockets of business as much as congress, and so on...

I think the reason the USA is seen as the most free is because of the western nations, it is the largest and has most influence. There are plenty of countries which are better but just don't pull anywhere near the influence that the USA does. However the EU has recently been challenging for that position, and certain countries (Eastern Europe, Baltics, Balkans, Turkey, Jordan, and other ME/North Africa) have been looking to the EU as a role model and have changed a lot of their practices and legislation to try and either join the EU, or get better trade deals or investment from the EU neighbourhood funds. On a global scale, the USA is still ahead but Bush did an incredible amount of damage to your image so that it will take a number of years before you return to where you were.

[TheMissionary]

I've actually studied to root causes behind crime...

So what are they(the root causes)?

There normally divided into 3 areas - social environment, economic factors and family structures. Heres a basic guide to it, but there are much more detailed studies/book/publication if you are truly interested in it. http://www.preventingcrime.net/library/ ... _Crime.pdf

Well first off, this study is Canadian, which means less correlation to America.

Second, you are making it sound like society is to blame for what criminals do. That is ridiculous. They are responsible fro what they do, no one else.

[joecoolfrog]

I've actually studied to root causes behind crime...

So what are they(the root causes)?

There normally divided into 3 areas - social environment, economic factors and family structures. Heres a basic guide to it, but there are much more detailed studies/book/publication if you are truly interested in it. http://www.preventingcrime.net/library/ ... _Crime.pdf

Well first off, this study is Canadian, which means less correlation to America.

Second, you are making it sound like society is to blame for what criminals do. That is ridiculous. They are responsible fro what they do, no one else.

What a shame, it was a becoming a nicely considered debate up until that point , somebody throw him a banana and perhaps he will lope away again

[AlgyTaylor]

Well first off, this study is Canadian, which means less correlation to America.

Unlikely to be a big different, I'd have thought ...

Second, you are making it sound like society is to blame for what criminals do. That is ridiculous. They are responsible fro what they do, no one else.

I don't think he's* saying that criminals aren't responsible for whatever crime they commit. I think he's saying that the society that someone lives in will have an affect on how they view crime - which IMO is true, if you grow up in a neighbourhood that has a high amount of youths carrying weapons, you'll be more likely to feel you need a weapon too.



* apologies if you're a she

[Snorri1234]

Well first off, this study is Canadian, which means less correlation to America.

Oh wait...are you serious?

Second, you are making it sound like society is to blame for what criminals do. That is ridiculous. They are responsible fro what they do, no one else.

He didn't make it sound anything like that. Criminals aren't genetically disposed towards crime, however, so it's not silly to say that society and circumstances influence the decision to do crime. To say otherwise is absurd and contradictory to all our knowledge.

[HapSmo19]

Criminals aren't genetically disposed towards crime....

Do you have proof of this or could it just turn out to be politically incorrect to suggest otherwise?

[Burrito]

Well first off, this study is Canadian, which means less correlation to America.

Oh wait...are you serious?

Second, you are making it sound like society is to blame for what criminals do. That is ridiculous. They are responsible fro what they do, no one else.

He didn't make it sound anything like that. Criminals aren't genetically disposed towards crime, however, so it's not silly to say that society and circumstances influence the decision to do crime. To say otherwise is absurd and contradictory to all our knowledge.

1. Yes, unless you think that situations are the same in both America and Canada. I'm not saying that there is no relation between this study and the situation in America, I'm saying that America and Canada are different, so these results probably aren't completely the same fro America.

2. It sounds to me like you are saying that the situation that someone grew up in is responsible for the crimes they commit, not themselves. They must be held accountable for whatever they do, not hide behind some psychological b.s. as an excuse for what they did. Yes, kids growing up in poor neighborhoods are more likely to commit crime, but that is not my problem. It is a failure both by them and their parents, and I am neither responsible nor willing to pay for those poor lifestyle choices that they have made.

[notyou2]

I'm just glad that you read the report Burrito, but I believe Canada and America are more similar than perhaps you realize. Canada is inundated with US culture and there are many cultural similarities. The standard of living is very similar. The 2 countries were settled by the same peoples.

One BIG difference is availability of guns and specifically handguns.

[Snorri1234]

1. Yes, unless you think that situations are the same in both America and Canada. I'm not saying that there is no relation between this study and the situation in America, I'm saying that America and Canada are different, so these results probably aren't completely the same fro America.

My point is that the difference between the US and Canada is exactly what this study is talking about. At least in the broad lines. Sure, the US has problems which are unique to them but overall the findings in this study are translatable to the US.

2. It sounds to me like you are saying that the situation that someone grew up in is responsible for the crimes they commit, not themselves. They must be held accountable for whatever they do, not hide behind some psychological b.s. as an excuse for what they did. Yes, kids growing up in poor neighborhoods are more likely to commit crime, but that is not my problem. It is a failure both by them and their parents, and I am neither responsible nor willing to pay for those poor lifestyle choices that they have made.

This is an absurd stance to take. You admit that situations influence people but at the same time you're saying that they really don't. What Titanic and I are saying is not that the criminals shouldn't be held accountable for what they did, but that something should be done so that others don't follow exactly the same path.

They haven't made the lifestyle choice of being poor (or black for that matter), but your attitude judges them for it regardless so is it any wonder they end up doing what you judge them for?



I mean, unless you believe in the lol-worthy propaganda spread by the US as a whole (i.e. YOU CAN BE ANYTHING YOU WANT AND EVERYONE CAN DO STUFF AND SO ON AND LOL NOONE WOULD EVER BELIEVE THIS), you can't sit there and judge people and also not even try to help them even though you know that helping them would lower crime and make more people happy.

[Snorri1234]

I'm just glad that you read the report Burrito, but I believe Canada and America are more similar than perhaps you realize. Canada is inundated with US culture and there are many cultural similarities. The standard of living is very similar. The 2 countries were settled by the same peoples.

One BIG difference is availability of guns and specifically handguns.

Nah, the whole gun-culture is exactly where the US and Canada differ. I mean, of course the most important factor is levels of poverty but aside from that the US also has a love for guns and violence that is unlike that of Canada. They really, really love guns.