Protestation

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PLAYER57832
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Re: Protestation

Post by PLAYER57832 »

thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:As has been said many times, there are plenty of idiots on ALL sides. Focusing on them only gives them more power, not less.


It also gives the opponents more power. If one side can show the other side to be buffoons, the first side can potentially win an argument with nothing else.


In this case, I think it all just serves to mask truth. ALL sides, that is. ... which is pretty much the point, because if people cannot find the truth, then they will just "vote the party" or let their leaders decide.
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Titanic
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Re: Protestation

Post by Titanic »

thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:As has been said many times, there are plenty of idiots on ALL sides. Focusing on them only gives them more power, not less.


It also gives the opponents more power. If one side can show the other side to be buffoons, the first side can potentially win an argument with nothing else.


In a reasoned debate yes, but since when has US politics had fair honest debates?
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thegreekdog
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Re: Protestation

Post by thegreekdog »

Titanic wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:As has been said many times, there are plenty of idiots on ALL sides. Focusing on them only gives them more power, not less.


It also gives the opponents more power. If one side can show the other side to be buffoons, the first side can potentially win an argument with nothing else.


In a reasoned debate yes, but since when has US politics had fair honest debates?


Never... point taken. I remember back in college learning about Lincoln in a history course and how is speeches differed when he was speaking in New Hampshire versus South Carolina; some fascinating pre-radio politics.
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PLAYER57832
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Re: Protestation

Post by PLAYER57832 »

thegreekdog wrote:
Titanic wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:As has been said many times, there are plenty of idiots on ALL sides. Focusing on them only gives them more power, not less.


It also gives the opponents more power. If one side can show the other side to be buffoons, the first side can potentially win an argument with nothing else.


In a reasoned debate yes, but since when has US politics had fair honest debates?


Never... point taken. I remember back in college learning about Lincoln in a history course and how is speeches differed when he was speaking in New Hampshire versus South Carolina; some fascinating pre-radio politics.

TRUE!

One big change we all celebrate, though: Most of us memorize the Gettysburgh address in school. What many don't know is that at the time, it was Weber to whom people came to listen ...In that day, florid 3 hour long speeches were considered "eloquence". Lincoln, I am told, actually helped change all that!
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Re: Protestation

Post by Nobunaga »

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Nobunaga
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Re: Protestation

Post by Nobunaga »

SEIU Memo: "Drown Out Their Voices" In Regards To Townhall Protesters

http://theblogprof.blogspot.com/2009/08 ... n-out.html

... How very f*cking American.

... Hope & Change, baby! Isn't it wonderful that your president has thugs on call to shut people up?

... Must be a Chicago thing.

...
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Re: Protestation

Post by stahrgazer »

PLAYER57832 wrote:

As for the "reading the bill", you cannot take bits and pieces of "legaleeze" out of context and hope to make sense. Look at the other thread, where bdub keeps insisting, no matter what anyone says, that insurance companies won't be able to issue new policies because there is a pretty standard "grandfather" type clause that says no old policies may be issues, they have to change to meet new critera.


Yes... and failing to identify that the "new criteria" that must be met deals with things like, not excluding prior conditions.

Currently, if you're diagnosed with cancer and lose your healthcare, you must work to find a new healthcare provider. For many providers, there are provisions which exclude existing conditions; meaning that your cancer care is now considered "not covered" because it is a condition you had before you got your new healthcare provider. Obama's plan includes a change so that prior conditions are universally INcluded, rather than EXcluded, in your coverage. Thus, any renewal policies must be changed to conform to that new criteria.

Which of you who has some ongoing medical condition, can really say it would be a bad thing if your next insurance provider has to continue paying for your treatment?
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Phatscotty
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Re: Protestation

Post by Phatscotty »

thegreekdog wrote:Why is it that when liberals protest, it's okay, but when conservatives protest it's fascist?

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id ... _article=1

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/ ... tikas.html

Talk about repression of free speech... jeez. God forbid anyone gets into a debate on this issue.

I remember at the RNC convention in Saint Paul liberal hate filled protesters threw all the garbage cans in the streets and busted out windows, not to mention trying to flip cops off their horses, throwing cement blocks off of bridges, throwing urine and poo bombs, and who can forget the molotov cocktail guy? One question, WHAT HAPPENED TO NORMAL PROTESTS LIKE THIS??????????????????????????????????????????????????? This is the DEFENSE of the smart and therefore able to PLAN AHEAD FOR TOMORROW, protecting their earning from the lazy, rabid, un-informed (and proud of it) trying to grab as much as possible in a fantasy shopping spree that shits all over our entire lives work and burn through it all in 24 hours and then scratch their head when nothing is left. To quote Chris Rock, "Aint nuttin make a nigga happier then not knowin the answer to your question"
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sailorseal
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Re: Protestation

Post by sailorseal »

[quote="thegreekdog"]Why is it that when liberals protest, it's okay, but when conservatives protest it's fascist?
/quote]
Well why is it when fascists protest its fascist and soviets protest its soviet?
THINK!
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Phatscotty
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Re: Protestation

Post by Phatscotty »

the media tells us which one is ok. you bought it. its all ok! this is america bitches
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Phatscotty
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Re: Protestation

Post by Phatscotty »

sailorseal wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Why is it that when liberals protest, it's okay, but when conservatives protest it's fascist?
/quote]
Well why is it when fascists protest its fascist and soviets protest its soviet?
THINK!

just comparing apples to oranges. i know all the lefties have forgotten their embarassing display of animality in saint paul. but it did happen, and i dont see that now. One is better that the other, thats all. Ta!
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stahrgazer
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Re: Protestation

Post by stahrgazer »

thegreekdog wrote:Why is it that when liberals protest, it's okay, but when conservatives protest it's fascist?


One reason I consider the current "conservative" (conservative is in quotes because I'm a conservative) protests to be fascist is because Rush Limbaugh, an uber-con, believes it would be better for Obama (the head of our nation) and all his plans (plans for our nation) to fail than it would be for him to succeed, in order to "save conservatism."

That's fairly fascist thinking, to me. Makes me ashamed to call myself conservative because I might be tainted by that.

Like I said in this thread, or some similar thread about the idea for healthcare for all Americans.... the Obama plan for healthcare is gov't-assisted Capitalism; healthy competition for a currently-unhealthy insurance industry, in order to make our citizens a bit healthier all around. I define currently-unhealthy as, a ton of money, more than any other nation spends vs. their gross national product, and more in terms of dollar value than any other nation, in order to be a whopping #37 in terms of quality of care for citizens. That's pretty unhealthy spending!

If agreeing that we need change, including gov't assistance to spur PROPER competition and get every citizen some healthcare makes me socialist, well, I'd rather be a socialist right now than a fascist like my ex-hero Limbaugh.
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Re: Ditto Nation

Post by oVo »

Don't worry about Limbaugh unless you believe everything he says on the radio, because he's a multi-millionaire entertainer and not a politician. A parasite pundit who's words are intended to rattle the cages of both liberals & conservatives as well as Reps & Dems and hold your attention for as long as possible. That's his job and the son of a bitch is really good at it. There is nothing he is trying to improve but his ratings, no suggestions of might work or improve healthcare, just more criticism and fodder for all the nay sayers.

Healthcare reform means zip to him --why should it?-- as he's unaffected by it regardless of the outcome. It's just one more issue he can make a lot of noise about... and if he's really lucky some of this protest/nazinoise will produce some good soundbites he can milk for every penny they're worth.
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Re: Protestation

Post by Nobunaga »

stahrgazer wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Why is it that when liberals protest, it's okay, but when conservatives protest it's fascist?


One reason I consider the current "conservative" (conservative is in quotes because I'm a conservative) protests to be fascist is because Rush Limbaugh, an uber-con, believes it would be better for Obama (the head of our nation) and all his plans (plans for our nation) to fail than it would be for him to succeed, in order to "save conservatism."

That's fairly fascist thinking, to me. Makes me ashamed to call myself conservative because I might be tainted by that.

Like I said in this thread, or some similar thread about the idea for healthcare for all Americans.... the Obama plan for healthcare is gov't-assisted Capitalism; healthy competition for a currently-unhealthy insurance industry, in order to make our citizens a bit healthier all around. I define currently-unhealthy as, a ton of money, more than any other nation spends vs. their gross national product, and more in terms of dollar value than any other nation, in order to be a whopping #37 in terms of quality of care for citizens. That's pretty unhealthy spending!

If agreeing that we need change, including gov't assistance to spur PROPER competition and get every citizen some healthcare makes me socialist, well, I'd rather be a socialist right now than a fascist like my ex-hero Limbaugh.


... Government assisted capitalism? You get that from your Social Studies teacher? How does that work? How will companies compete with an entity that has no need to produce a profit and can print as much of its own money as it wants?

... Concerning Limbaugh, sure, a 400 million dollar contract makes one wonder why he would care... but perhaps some rich people actually give a sh*t about their country? But I can't argue on his behalf, his motives are certainly questionable. Boortz is the man.

... Now, your president is the one calling in the unions to shut people up... and these unions are not subject to the content of the bill itself ... and you are calling others fascist? I think you need to have a word with your social studies teacher... or maybe even the principal.

...


...
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Re: Protestation

Post by PLAYER57832 »

stahrgazer wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Why is it that when liberals protest, it's okay, but when conservatives protest it's fascist?


One reason I consider the current "conservative" (conservative is in quotes because I'm a conservative) protests to be fascist is because Rush Limbaugh, an uber-con, believes it would be better for Obama (the head of our nation) and all his plans (plans for our nation) to fail than it would be for him to succeed, in order to "save conservatism."

That's fairly fascist thinking, to me. Makes me ashamed to call myself conservative because I might be tainted by that.

Like I said in this thread, or some similar thread about the idea for healthcare for all Americans.... the Obama plan for healthcare is gov't-assisted Capitalism; healthy competition for a currently-unhealthy insurance industry, in order to make our citizens a bit healthier all around. I define currently-unhealthy as, a ton of money, more than any other nation spends vs. their gross national product, and more in terms of dollar value than any other nation, in order to be a whopping #37 in terms of quality of care for citizens. That's pretty unhealthy spending!

If agreeing that we need change, including gov't assistance to spur PROPER competition and get every citizen some healthcare makes me socialist, well, I'd rather be a socialist right now than a fascist like my ex-hero Limbaugh.

I agree with yout "conservative" in quotes.

The right has been very effective in redefining terms so now even self-proclaimed conservatives such as yourself are considered "liberal" in the hype.

Truth is, most younger people who throw out the term "liberal' have no idea what it has historically encompassed.

A side note... did you know that the Republican party was largely formed by people who opposed slavery because they beleived you could get more work from someone who was not a slave. Without drawing too tight a connections (we have come a VERY LONG way since then!), we are now seeing another change in peradium. Then, it was basic freedom. In the 20's it was safe working conditions. Later it became pensions, weekends, etc. Now, its health care for all and "living wages". (I use the term, though I mean real living wages, not necessarily what some hypers add in)
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Re: Protestation

Post by Frigidus »

Nobunaga wrote:... Government assisted capitalism? You get that from your Social Studies teacher? How does that work? How will companies compete with an entity that has no need to produce a profit and can print as much of its own money as it wants?


The need to produce a profit is the entire problem with capitalist health care. Every health care system's primary motive should be to keep people healthy, not trim the populace's wallets as much as humanly possible and then try to skip out on care if they can find the right loophole.
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Re: Protestation

Post by Titanic »

Nobunaga wrote:... Government assisted capitalism? You get that from your Social Studies teacher? How does that work? How will companies compete with an entity that has no need to produce a profit and can print as much of its own money as it wants?

... Concerning Limbaugh, sure, a 400 million dollar contract makes one wonder why he would care... but perhaps some rich people actually give a sh*t about their country? But I can't argue on his behalf, his motives are certainly questionable. Boortz is the man.


If capitalism and the free market are so great, they should be able to beat the crap out of the inefficient bureaucrat run government which will put people between you and your doctor and give euthanasia to old people. Lets see how strong that invisible hand really is!

Limbaugh loves his country? Half right I guess, I think he loves certain parts (WASP's, religion and guns), but hates a lot of other parts (immigrants, the "big liberal eastern cities", the government etc..). Who is Boortz?
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Re: Protestation

Post by got tonkaed »

As it were, i dont see a huge problem with the notion that government can assist capitalism, especially in a globalizing sense in the short term. Certainly the government through subsidizing can spur capitalist output and potentially give competitive advantages. Granted anything positive the government can do also means they can do negative things and they may do they at just as frequent of a rate. But it is odd to think that the two cannot in some capacity be put together.

Id prefer government managed capitalism as the term itself goes, but thats semantical.
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Re: Protestation

Post by PLAYER57832 »

David Goldhill made a related point in an interview this morning.

Summary:
The debate over overhauling the nation's health care system has aroused passions around the country. Many say the system is fine the way it is, but David Goldhill says otherwise. Goldhill, the author of an article in the upcoming issue of the Atlantic magazine called How American Health Care Killed my Father, offers his insight
.


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =111831757
(only the audio version and print summary are available for now, the text version usually appears the next day)

He believes if individuals make the choices, rather than employers, we will be better consumers. I actually agree with that. Where I disagree is just in that I believe the government MUST set and ensure coverage for the minimum of care and that the "minimum" standard must be significantly higher than it currently is.

My list would include: vaccines, preventative care and "wellness" programs (ones that are shown to WORK!!!), hospice including discussion of options besides just aggressive treatments, dietary counseling as well as treatment for all contagious diseases, research, etc.) (I would leave the full list up to a panel of doctors, ethicists and economists).
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Re: Protestation

Post by Woodruff »

Frigidus wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:... Government assisted capitalism? You get that from your Social Studies teacher? How does that work? How will companies compete with an entity that has no need to produce a profit and can print as much of its own money as it wants?


The need to produce a profit is the entire problem with capitalist health care. Every health care system's primary motive should be to keep people healthy, not trim the populace's wallets as much as humanly possible and then try to skip out on care if they can find the right loophole.


Yes, I do agree. Capitalism really just doesn't "fit" a healthy healthcare system, in my opinion. I'm not necessarily in favor of universal health care system (I was in the military, so I know a bit about universal health care and its problems...), but I do know that when profit becomes MORE important than the healthcare product (and sadly, that really IS what capitalism has turned into), there is a serious problem. Capitalism is, in general, the right path...but it's not a fits-all paradigm, in my opinion.

Titanic wrote:Limbaugh loves his country? Half right I guess, I think he loves certain parts (WASP's, religion and guns), but hates a lot of other parts (immigrants, the "big liberal eastern cities", the government etc..). Who is Boortz?


The only thing Limbaugh loves is Limbaugh. He is a very sad case of a brilliant man (yes, he really is) who has turned himself into a pathetic joke.
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Re: Protestation

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Nobunaga wrote:... Government assisted capitalism? You get that from your Social Studies teacher? How does that work? How will companies compete with an entity that has no need to produce a profit and can print as much of its own money as it wants?


Your cellphone is proof that just because the government heads a subdivision of a program, doesn't mean the government will take it all over leaving no room for profitable companies.

Cellphones are available to the public due to what I termed "government assisted capitalism." I used to work at Pratt & Whitney, on the RL10 engine. For those who are unfamiliar with that, the RL10 engine powers the 2nd stage of American satellites for Lockheed Martin (private); Boeing (Private) and various government satellites.

These things came about because the government spurred programs, ie, the space race; a much earlier version of the RL10 engine was used to launch men into space, including the reaches for the moon. If you saw the Apollo movie with Tom Hanks, you saw one of the interesting aspects of the RL10: it can be shut down and relit in space.

The government continues to be heavily involved in even private industries related to space. A main reason the government remains involved in "space" rather than turn it all over to companies like Boeing and Lockheed is that "space" is considered a national interest.

Government involvment has kept Lockheed and Boeing working to keep costs low, and government investment enabled companies (like Pratt) to continue research and development into things that, ultimately, helped our nation do better.

Interestingly enough, much of the launch protocol for the Space Shuttle are also civilian (ie capitalist and for profit) with some Government sponsorship and oversight to keep costs low.

While "space" and "satellites" are not "healthcare" the government does invest (used to do more) in healthcare research, which is similar to the r&d for the space programs. Why not, then, have some healthy competition ie. government programs for healthcare similar to government programs for space.

It's simply a matter of declaring healthcare "a national interest" like the space program was decades ago.

Oh. Wait. Obama did that. Now we're just waiting for the r&d to get the program up and running.
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Re: Protestation

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Woodruff wrote:
Frigidus wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:... Government assisted capitalism? You get that from your Social Studies teacher? How does that work? How will companies compete with an entity that has no need to produce a profit and can print as much of its own money as it wants?


The need to produce a profit is the entire problem with capitalist health care. Every health care system's primary motive should be to keep people healthy, not trim the populace's wallets as much as humanly possible and then try to skip out on care if they can find the right loophole.


Yes, I do agree. Capitalism really just doesn't "fit" a healthy healthcare system, in my opinion. I'm not necessarily in favor of universal health care system (I was in the military, so I know a bit about universal health care and its problems...), but I do know that when profit becomes MORE important than the healthcare product (and sadly, that really IS what capitalism has turned into), there is a serious problem. Capitalism is, in general, the right path...but it's not a fits-all paradigm, in my opinion.

I want to clarify that when I say competition could improve health care at upper levels, I am not strictly talking about profit.

I see the major problems as follows:

1. Too much time/energy wasted simply dealing with multiple insurance companies, forms and rules (including various government plans).
SOLUTIONS:
A. GREATLY simplify forms. At a minimum, agree on the basic information that will be collected. Better yet, have a semi-consensus of options available for various issues and illnesses.

B. Collect and compile information on effectiveness of treatments in various situations and do a better job of using that to create a basis for reccomended care. When people here this they often cry "but I want options". The REAL truth is that the only "option" people want in treatment is to be treated effectively as cheaply as possible. Geitner Health here in PA has a pilot program that does this. The idea is to track which treaments work best in which situation and then make that the "standard". Options exist when there is no real clear better treatment method (though particular hospitals or doctors might need to pick one), for special situations, to evaluate new treatment possibilities (studies), etc.

2. Payment is greatly increased for "doing procedures" rather than "thinking" or "communicating". However, those last 2 are far more likely to result in effective treatment.

A. allow doctors time to sit down and talk with patients.

B. TRAIN doctors to listen better to patients -- the more doctors listen, the fewer tests they often need. Also, the chance of missing something critical is actually far less.

C. Require and allow time for doctors to do "old fashioned" physical exams again. Like listening, these give doctors phenomenal clues on what is really wrong with a patient. This results in fewer bogus tests and reduces the chance of mis-diagnosis.

D. Pay more for time, rather than just "procedures". Why should lancing an infected toe pay far more than sitting and listening to a dying patient, explaining the options that are available and helping the patient and family better come to terms with what is happening. Why should it pay more than helping a newly diagnosed diabetic understand all the complicated life changes that will have to happen? Sure, the doctor needs to be paid for lancing the toe, but the doctor needs to be paid more, not less for helping the dying patient or diabetic understand thier situation.

3. Change the way mistakes are dealt with.

A. define true criminality (intentional harm) and PROSECUTE it (few and far between, mostly done).

B. Hold hospitals/doctors responsible for any care needed to correct problems they create. This push is already happening. Geitner Health is a prime example. This right off eliminates a big reason why people are forced to sue.
C. Establish "no fault" malpractice insurance, patterned somewhat like auto insurance, that will pay living expenses, etc. for patients (and families when appropriate) who are injured or made sicker due to hospital/doctor error.

D.Reward doctors for finding errors, rather than penalizing them. If a doctor makes a mistake and "owns up" or discovers the error, then any penalty should be minimal. Doctors are not perfect , they make mistakes. The emphasis should be on finding ways to correct problems, not on penalizing doctors who err.

E.DO set better standards for recognizing negligence and incompetence. In some cases, retraining may be warranted, in other cases shifting to a lower-responsibility position. In others, maybe that doctor needs to retire. Because this is not tied to huge malpractice claims, the impetus to be honest will be greater. Certainly not perfect, but far better than now.

F. set up an independent board that will review ALL cases that meet certain criteria (the grossest errors or perhaps those most troubling situations, defined by the doctors/hospitals themselves), PLUS a stratified random selection of other cases. (that is, so many heart procedures, so many liver transplants ... etc... exact numbers and criteria will be formulated by doctors themselves). The goal here will be to find numbers of unreported errors and to better track how to prevent those errors.


There is more, but that is plenty for right now. Doing those things will go a LONG way to fix our health system, regardless of who pays.
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Re: Protestation

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stahrgazer wrote:
Oh. Wait. Obama did that. Now we're just waiting for the r&d to get the program up and running.

You are WAY out of date. Although Bush, et al have gutted the programs heavily, our National Institute for Health is still a prime funder of all health research and development.

The thing is few know of it all because they are statutorially forbidden from ANY type of lobbying at all. (they cannot call up a congressman unless specifically invited and then may only answer questions, not offer information).

Also, they have to give make information available freely to private companies, who can then patent and sell the benefits.
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Woodruff
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Re: Protestation

Post by Woodruff »

PLAYER57832 wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
Oh. Wait. Obama did that. Now we're just waiting for the r&d to get the program up and running.

You are WAY out of date. Although Bush, et al have gutted the programs heavily, our National Institute for Health is still a prime funder of all health research and development.

The thing is few know of it all because they are statutorially forbidden from ANY type of lobbying at all. (they cannot call up a congressman unless specifically invited and then may only answer questions, not offer information).

Also, they have to give make information available freely to private companies, who can then patent and sell the benefits.


What brain surgeon in Congress set up THAT system? <sigh>
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Re: Protestation

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Woodruff wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
Oh. Wait. Obama did that. Now we're just waiting for the r&d to get the program up and running.

You are WAY out of date. Although Bush, et al have gutted the programs heavily, our National Institute for Health is still a prime funder of all health research and development.

The thing is few know of it all because they are statutorially forbidden from ANY type of lobbying at all. (they cannot call up a congressman unless specifically invited and then may only answer questions, not offer information).

Also, they have to give make information available freely to private companies, who can then patent and sell the benefits.


What brain surgeon in Congress set up THAT system? <sigh>


Pressure from pharmaceautical companies.

I don't necessarily always believe Ralph Nadar, but he has had some very interesting things to say on the subject
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