Gilgamesh; Coordinates on pg 20

[the.killing.44]

If you're going to make the bricks so accentuated, then I still think that the mortar lines are too perfect. If you just take a brush and paint little influxes in the mortar. If you use the same color overlay is should work perfectly, and if you go down the crack-heavy path, that'll make it more accurate.

.44

[porkenbeans]

porkenbeans,
I'm not sure if you've noticed, but...
oaktown foed you. He's not reading your posts.

No mention of the map... you'll be next saaimen!

Your post does not say anything towards the topic, OAK.
But maybe you are trying to be humorous ?
In that case, GO OAK, nice to see that you have lightened up a tad. It is understandable that a person can get too serious and overprotective of his creation, after spending so many hours on it, but you need to steep back and let the reviewers do their job without taking it so personal. Your foe button is for those that you do not like, so does this mean that you will use it on every person that says something about your maps, that you do not like ?

BTW, Kill is on target about the grout lines.

[AndyDufresne]

Oak hasn't lightened up a tad---he's never even had to---he's always been a light-hearted hippo. Perhaps it was their perception that made people think otherwise!

As for the map, I'm quite satisified and look forward to seeing it, and other maps as well, Forged soon.


--Andy

[porkenbeans]

porkenbeans wrote:@Oak,
I never went off topic, only responded to your "off topic" remarks.
You should not let constructive criticism upset you so much. It is ok to disagree, but you should unbunch your panties. Just kidding, c'mon Oak lighten up friend. Do I need to say once more that I think this map is cool ? ... well it IS. Just relax and take deep breaths, You would think with all the quenches under your belt, that you would be a bit more used to this process by now.
Not me or anyone else can MAKE you change a damn thing on your map, so just let the the unjustified critique roll off, like water on a ducks back. it wont penetrate unless you ruffle up your feathers.
...oh, and have FUN !!!

Oak wrote;
No mention of the map. Foed.


This whole dialog IS about the map, and the fact that, I think Oak needs to just take the criticism kindly, and not just the positive ones. This whole exchange IS on topic, and follows a logical path of conversion, that is until Oak gets upset at the neg. criticism and goes off topic with his FOE proclamation.
If you read my remarks carefully, you will see that I am NOT being belligerent, and only trying to help smooth his feathers.

[oaktown]

[bigimg]http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r76/ron_parodi/gilgamesh/gilgamsh30L.jpg[/bigimg]
I've scuffed up the edges of some of the tiles/brocks... I see the concern - the horizontal lines across the map look too perfect. At this point with the grout, tiles color, and the tile effects being different layers it's really tricky to completely angle a brick, so mussing up the straight lines may be the best I'm willing to commit to. I'll fuss around more as I work on the code, but I hope that nobody thinks that should hold the map up at this point,

The "depth" of the tiles has been decreased slightly on the large map, even more so on the small map where I found it distracting.

I also lightened up the right edge of the map - I'd screwed up a layer which left a shadow. And I fixed some little things like borders that didn't touch.

[bigimg]http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r76/ron_parodi/gilgamesh/gilgamsh30S.jpg[/bigimg]

[MrBenn]

Final Forge

---The Gilgamesh Map has reached the ‘Final Forge’ Stage. The map has passed rigorous gameplay and graphics examinations, and major concerns have been addressed. If you have any other concerns, please make your voice heard. If after a reasonable amount of time there has not been any objection or protest, the map will be deemed finished with the 'Foundry Brand' of approval and will be submitted for live play. As long as there is still discussion or posts that have yet to be commented on, the map will remain in Final Forge until said discussion has reached the conclusion that the map has reached its final and polished version.

Post questions and concerns if any.

[Echospree]

The only concern I can think of at this point is making sure that each colour is easily visible against the backdrop of a bonus region of the same colour.

I think the only ones you'd need to check would be the neutrals in Subartu and blue in Dilmun.

I notice you've got the neutrals already shown in the two regions where I might be concerned, they seem fine to me, I just want to be sure everyone agrees.

[oaktown]

The only concern I can think of at this point is making sure that each colour is easily visible against the backdrop of a bonus region of the same colour.

I think the only ones you'd need to check would be the neutrals in Subartu and blue in Dilmun.

I notice you've got the neutrals already shown in the two regions where I might be concerned, they seem fine to me, I just want to be sure everyone agrees.

I'll be working on the XML and coordinates next... as I post coordinate examples everybody can give feedback on the colors as well. Increasing the opacity of the army streaks will be easy enough.

[oaktown]

[bigimg]http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r76/ron_parodi/gilgamesh/Picture3.png[/bigimg]
[bigimg]http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r76/ron_parodi/gilgamesh/Picture2.png[/bigimg]

Small and large maps for army count checks... there was concern about the colors of the army counts against the backgrounds, but I think the grey blotches behind the counts do the trick even with three digit #s.

I canalready see that a few of the counts on the large map are a bit low - after a few minutes of doing this your eyes start to miss shit. Anything that strikes you funny let me know and I'll adjust.

If anybody wants to do further checking...
Code: http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/7/30/ ... gamesh.xml
Small: http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r76/ ... 0testS.jpg
Large: http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r76/ ... 0testL.jpg

Code: Select all

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<map>
   <title>Gilgamesh</title>
   <smallwidth>630</smallwidth>
   <smallheight>480</smallheight>
   <largewidth>840</largewidth>
   <largeheight>640</largeheight>
   <filetype>jpg</filetype>

<positions>
   <position>
      <territory>Humbaba</territory>
      <territory>Nineveh</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Assur</territory>
      <territory>Bull of Heaven</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Mashu</territory>
      <territory>Ur</territory>
   </position>
</positions>

   <continent>
      <name>Wilds</name>
      <bonus>2</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>Humbaba</territory>
         <territory>Cedar Forest</territory>
         <territory>Silver Mountain</territory>
         <territory>The Passes</territory>
      </components>
   </continent>

   <continent>
      <name>Dilmun</name>
      <bonus>3</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>Nisir</territory>
         <territory>Forest of Dilmun</territory>   
         <territory>The Waters of Death</territory>
         <territory>The Great Darkness</territory>
         <territory>Garden of the Gods</territory>
         <territory>Aratta</territory>
         <territory>Mashu</territory>
      </components>
   </continent>

   <continent>
      <name>Subartu</name>
      <bonus>5</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>Karkemish</territory>
         <territory>Urkesh</territory>
         <territory>Nagar</territory>
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         <territory>Dur Kaltimmu</territory>
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         <territory>Harran</territory>
         <territory>Assur</territory>
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      </components>
   </continent>

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      <bonus>5</bonus>
      <components>
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         <territory>Babylon</territory>
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         <territory>Nippur</territory>
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         <territory>Ur</territory>
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         <territory>Eshnunna</territory>
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   <territory>
      <name>Gassur</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Babylon</border>
         <border>Nineveh</border>
         <border>Mashu</border>
         <border>Eshnunna</border>            
      </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>404</smallx>
         <smally>238</smally>
         <largex>539</largex>
         <largey>311</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>   

   <territory>
      <name>Babylon</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Gassur</border>
         <border>Shurupak</border>
         <border>Uruk</border>
         <border>Nippur</border>
         <border>Eshnunna</border>
         <border>Rapiqum</border>            
      </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>401</smallx>
         <smally>320</smally>
         <largex>535</largex>
         <largey>419</largey>
      </coordinates>
     <neutral>3</neutral>
   </territory>   

   <territory>
      <name>Uruk</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Babylon</border>
         <border>Nippur</border>
         <border>Lagash</border>
         <border>Eridu</border>      
         <border>Bull of Heaven</border>      
      </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>430</smallx>
         <smally>366</smally>
         <largex>574</largex>
         <largey>481</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>   

   <territory>
      <name>Nippur</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Babylon</border>
         <border>Uruk</border>
         <border>Lagash</border>         
      </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>466</smallx>
         <smally>305</smally>
         <largex>623</largex>
         <largey>399</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>   

   <territory>
      <name>Lagash</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Nippur</border>
         <border>Uruk</border>
         <border>Susa</border>            
      </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>481</smallx>
         <smally>365</smally>
         <largex>642</largex>
         <largey>480</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>   

   <territory>
      <name>Eridu</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Uruk</border>
         <border>Ur</border>   
      </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>472</smallx>
         <smally>416</smally>
         <largex>631</largex>
         <largey>547</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>   

   <territory>
      <name>Ur</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Eridu</border>
         <border>Susa</border>         
      </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>553</smallx>
         <smally>421</smally>
         <largex>739</largex>
         <largey>554</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>   

   <territory>
      <name>Susa</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Anshan</border>
         <border>Awan</border>
         <border>Lagash</border>
         <border>Ur</border>      
      </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>563</smallx>
         <smally>350</smally>
         <largex>752</largex>
         <largey>460</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>   

   <territory>
      <name>Anshan</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Susa</border>
         <border>Awan</border>         
      </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>603</smallx>
         <smally>377</smally>
         <largex>804</largex>
         <largey>496</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>   

   <territory>
      <name>Awan</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Susa</border>
         <border>Anshan</border>
         <border>Eshnunna</border>   
      </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>576</smallx>
         <smally>297</smally>
         <largex>769</largex>
         <largey>389</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>   

   <territory>
      <name>Eshnunna</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Awan</border>
         <border>Babylon</border>
         <border>Gassur</border>
         <border>Mashu</border>      
      </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>516</smallx>
         <smally>285</smally>
         <largex>689</largex>
         <largey>373</largey>
   </coordinates>
   </territory>   

   <territory>
      <name>Mashu</name>
      <borders>
         <border>The Great Darkness</border>
         <border>Gassur</border>
         <border>Eshnunna</border>
      </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>445</smallx>
         <smally>238</smally>
         <largex>594</largex>
         <largey>310</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>   

   <territory>
      <name>The Great Darkness</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Mashu</border>
         <border>Forest of Dilmun</border>         
         <border>The Waters of Death</border>
         <border>Garden of the Gods</border>
         <border>Aratta</border>
      </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>477</smallx>
         <smally>168</smally>
         <largex>637</largex>
         <largey>218</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>   

   <territory>
      <name>Aratta</name>
      <borders>
         <border>The Great Darkness</border>
         <border>Garden of the Gods</border>            
      </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>570</smallx>
         <smally>192</smally>
         <largex>761</largex>
         <largey>249</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>   

   <territory>
      <name>Garden of the Gods</name>
      <borders>
         <border>The Waters of Death</border>
         <border>Aratta</border>
         <border>The Great Darkness</border>   
      </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>543</smallx>
         <smally>149</smally>
         <largex>724</largex>
         <largey>191</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>   

   <territory>
      <name>The Waters of Death</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Garden of the Gods</border>
         <border>The Great Darkness</border>
         <border>Forest of Dilmun</border>
      </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>509</smallx>
         <smally>70</smally>
         <largex>680</largex>
         <largey>87</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>   

   <territory>
      <name>Forest of Dilmun</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Nisir</border>
         <border>The Great Darkness</border>
         <border>The Waters of Death</border>            
      </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>437</smallx>
         <smally>78</smally>
         <largex>583</largex>
         <largey>98</largey>
   </coordinates>      
   </territory>   
   
   <territory>
      <name>Nisir</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Silver Mountain</border>
         <border>Forest of Dilmun</border>         
      </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>388</smallx>
         <smally>62</smally>
         <largex>518</largex>
         <largey>77</largey>
      </coordinates>      
   </territory>   
   <territory>
      <name>Bull of Heaven</name>
      <borders>
         <border>Uruk</border>      
      </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>420</smallx>
         <smally>398</smally>
         <largex>560</largex>
         <largey>523</largey>
      </coordinates>
   </territory>   
   
</map>

[porkenbeans]

Well I guess you will have to take me off of your foe list if you happen to be interested in My thoughts. Like on gimils new feudal, I find it easier to show, than try to explain. Here is some of what I had in mind. Note the center where I have tried to show, how it may be possible, to have the grout lines more pronounced, (the way you have made them), and still be able to clearly define the borders. As on fuedal, just a little bevel and drop shadow will bring things into the 3-D world, and allow the viewer to better distinguish whats what on YOUR map.
Also the other concern that I have is the blurriness of the text. Not so much on the large version, but the small version it seems to not be as clear. I tried to play with the contrast and color values to compensate for this, but it is very difficult to do without the full file, but you will notice that, it is much easier to read now.
Also a helpful tip to all the mapmakers out there, Photobucket has a great editing room to give your image a final tweak or two. I find that it is very useful, as you can play around and try different things quickly.
[bigimg]http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv12/porkenbeans/Picture2workcopy.jpg[/bigimg]

[oaktown]

For starters, porkenbeans: thanks for your last post about the map. Keep it up and you may make it all the way back to my friend list.

The more I play with the cracks and such the less I like what it looks like. I have, however, taken pork's comment to heart about the clarity of the text on the small version. I've brought it up a half point size (from 13.5 to 14) and lightened the text in most regions.

I've also poured over the coordinates and made some changes. Small and large image captures with three digit counts:

[bigimg]http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r76/ron_parodi/gilgamesh/Picture4.png[/bigimg]
[bigimg]http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r76/ron_parodi/gilgamesh/Picture5.png[/bigimg]

Links to original docs:
code: http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/7/30/ ... gamesh.xml
large: http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r76/ ... msh31L.jpg
small: http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r76/ ... msh31S.jpg

[porkenbeans]

[the.killing.44]

Firstly, it does seem like you're going down the crack-and-the-like-in-your-face route. I'm against it, but whatever — the only true, non-personal choice issue I see is that on the small map it's made it hard to see the logos, most prominently (that's an ironic word choice is it) the lion and the cities, especially in the gray zone. They now seem to blend in too much — if you added some dark outer glow or the like that'd help it. And I say this more because it's a gameplay concern than a aesthetic one …

Now then:

XML is OK
Co-ordinates are OK

Quickest check I've done


.44

[oaktown]

thanks .44. I can make the cities pop out a bit more.

not a big change, but a bit better. Also moved the bottom-most border out of the brick cracks...
[bigimg]http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r76/ron_parodi/gilgamesh/gilgamsh32S.jpg[/bigimg]
[bigimg]http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r76/ron_parodi/gilgamesh/gilgamsh32L.jpg[/bigimg]

If we're there, here are the links...
Links to original docs:
code: http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/7/30/ ... gamesh.xml
large: http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r76/ ... msh32L.jpg
small: http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r76/ ... msh32S.jpg

[porkenbeans]

@ 44,
Thats drop shadow, with 0 distance. play with the spread and size, then the opacity.
And yes I agree with you 100%. this will stand the text "up" from the map, and the contrast will make it much easier to read.

[dolomite13]

I love this map but find the brick pattern distracting and feel it detracts from the great work done on the map. Maybe it could be softened a bit.

Just my 2 cents worth...

=)

==D

[oaktown]

I love this map but find the brick pattern distracting and feel it detracts from the great work done on the map. Maybe it could be softened a bit.

Agreed... I'm making changes in subtle increments since I think it's close. Lightened the bevel and the grout - especially n the small version - and softened some particularly square corners.

Current docs:
code: http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/7/30/ ... gamesh.xml
large: http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r76/ ... msh33L.jpg
small: http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r76/ ... msh33S.jpg

[bigimg]http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r76/ron_parodi/gilgamesh/gilgamsh33S.jpg[/bigimg]
[bigimg]http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r76/ron_parodi/gilgamesh/gilgamsh33L.jpg[/bigimg]

[oaktown]

three weeks, no comments. This should either be quenched or recycled.

[sully800]

The softened grout lines look much better Oaktown! The previous versions were difficult for me to look at, and I am somewhat embarrassed to say when I first looked at this map I thought the brick shapes were the territory lines. My mistake became clear when looking at a version with the coordinates in place, and at that moment the white border lines popped out at me. Anyway, there used to be too much competition/commotion with the two different sets of lines, but the lighter grout looks much better.

Coordinates and all look very good. There is lots of space between each army, so there are no overlap or crowding issues that I can see.

I do struggle to read the text below the title, especially on the small map. The second and fourth lines coincide with the grout of the background which makes it hard for me to read. this might be an unusual case where making the text a bit smaller makes it more legible. If you could fit two lines of text within one block vertically I think I would be able to read it more easily.

Finally, I think the arrows could be highlighted better, perhaps with a darker outer shadow. They get lost in the light colors of the map, and are only very clear where half of them overlaps the dark brown region.

Nice work!

[porkenbeans]

The only areas that are easy to read are the blue and brown areas. This is the only place where there is any kind of contrast. The rest of the map is all the same, no contrast, no color, no way for me to clearly read it. I know that we have already had this conversation, and I realize that you are stuck on the faded, washed out look. But if you want this map to be popular, you may want to consider the older farts like me, that do not have perfect eyes anymore.
Anything that you could do to make the map easier to read, will be applauded by those like myself.

[saaimen]

The only areas that are easy to read are the blue and brown areas. This is the only place where there is any kind of contrast. The rest of the map is all the same, no contrast, no color, no way for me to clearly read it. I know that we have already had this conversation, and I realize that you are stuck on the faded, washed out look. But if you want this map to be popular, you may want to consider the older farts like me, that do not have perfect eyes anymore.
Anything that you could do to make the map easier to read, will be applauded by those like myself.

Just because you don't like the faded look doesn't give you the right to rant like that.
It's a very neat looking, original, concept-true map design and I like it very much.
Kudos to you oak. For making this map and for dealing with comments like the above.

[oaktown]

[bigimg]http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r76/ron_parodi/gilgamesh/gilgamsh34L.jpg[/bigimg]
[bigimg]http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r76/ron_parodi/gilgamesh/gilgamsh34S.jpg[/bigimg]

thanks, sully... gave a bit more emphasis to the text (which is not gameplay related and thus not a priority) and the arrows (which are).

code: http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/7/30/ ... gamesh.xml
large: http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r76/ ... msh33L.jpg
small: http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r76/ ... msh33S.jpg

As for Porkenbeans, as long as his posts are related to making the map better, they are welcome. As you say, pork, I'm committed to the washed-out look, as it seems to have more fans than the bright colors. If I cared to spend any more time on this image I'm sure it would eventually look better, but it's been nearly a year already. Remember, this began with the Middle Earth Revamp competition.

[porkenbeans]

The only areas that are easy to read are the blue and brown areas. This is the only place where there is any kind of contrast. The rest of the map is all the same, no contrast, no color, no way for me to clearly read it. I know that we have already had this conversation, and I realize that you are stuck on the faded, washed out look. But if you want this map to be popular, you may want to consider the older farts like me, that do not have perfect eyes anymore.
Anything that you could do to make the map easier to read, will be applauded by those like myself.

Just because you don't like the faded look doesn't give you the right to rant like that.
It's a very neat looking, original, concept-true map design and I like it very much.
Kudos to you oak. For making this map and for dealing with comments like the above.

You surely do not know me very well, or you would know that I can really put on a rant if I choose. lol.
I also like this map, it is very original and looks to be a map that I might enjoy playing, Its just that it is a bit hard for me to read. Maybe if the text were black, it would be more legible, and still be able to keep the washed out look. I don't know. Its just an idea.
And thanx Oak, for understanding that my comments are NOT meant as some kind of poke or jab at all of your work. You are one of my favorite mapmakers.

[porkenbeans]

Hey Oak, I see a big improvement. It looks more legible to me now. and the arrows are much better.

[Incandenza]

The fact that this map hasn't been quenched and loaded is an outrage.