Double Turns and Freestyle Turn Holding

[Yoyoyoav]

I also support this. The double turn is a bug that needs to be fixed.

[Emmdizzle]

I disagree...that is why it's called freestyle and adds a strategic element that you do not have in sequential games. If you think it's unfair and cheating...then I strongly suggest you only play sequential games in the future.

Concise description: Adjust Freestyle in such a way that if someone is active in their turn when the round timer ends; they must still wait half the round or until someone else starts their turn to start their turn. If all players are active when the round expires, then anyone may go at the start of the new round.

Specifics: If Player 1 is playing against Player 2. Player 1 starts and ends their turn. Player 2 can then start their turn, and let the round time out. Because Player 2 did not end their turn, and the round timeout triggered the new turn, Player 2 can immediately take their turn again. If done correctly, Player 2 basically gives up a card (or nothing in No Cards games) to get two turns in a row.

This will improve the following aspects of the site: Will eliminate Double Turns from Freestyle while still allowing people to play faster paced games where they can take their turns at the same time as their opponents and/or teammates. In my opinion, putting everyone on a level playing field and allowing the best player to win without any cheap advantages.

This is basically a more formal request from some discussion that has taken place in the cheating forum in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=50587

[Emmdizzle]

I agree with demon...If you don't want someone to double turn you then show up and round's end and takes yours to thwart them.

Did your even read what I wrote?

The strategy I mentioned was not regarding the taking of a double turn but to thwarting of one.

Yes I did read what you wrote and it wasn't clear that you were talking about thwarting double turns.

It's not hard.

Opponents don't double turn me because I don't allow them to.

Congratulations. Its not a matter of being hard or not - its a matter of fairness.

Just to clarify my opinion of 'Double Turns'.

It's not a strategy, it's a cheap tactic, like skipping a turn in an escalating game when you have 5 cards and want more troops for your set.

As has also been mentioned earlier in this thread, not everyone has the free time to hang around a computer all day waiting for an optimal moment to play their turn. Similarly not everyone can afford to go without sleep waiting for the clock to run down just in case the last guy to have a turn to play double turns. The Freestyle Turn Delay was implemented for a reason, enough with trying to gainsay this simple fact.

I couldn't agree more.

[Mr.Brix]

I didn't even consider this to be a problem before someone went all nuts, when I double turned in a game. I hadn't been on the forum, so I wasn't aware of the heat about this subject. I'd just read the rules, and it seemed (and still does) pretty clear to me, that the spirit of freestyle is, that all can take their turns whenever. This meaning, that when a new round is starting, all is fair - you can go straight away, or you can wait. With that as my interpretation, I naturally thought, that the rule, that you have to wait for another player to begin (or half a round) whenever you INITIATE a new round before the timer runs out, was made, so you can't start a new round with noone knowing and then be first player in the new round for certain. That would go against the fairness of "play whenever" since it would mean that someone could be sure to go first in a round. I also think, that implementing a rule, that you have to wait, even if the timer is the one intiating a new round, would go against said fairness. I'm thus a pro double turn guy; I think it's obvious, that when you have a game type, that's designed for all the players to take turns whenever they want, it's a built in part of that game type, that people can take two turns in a row. I don't think this is unfair - it's part of the idea, and I think people are forgetting, that 1) You can't do this two times in a row. 2) Everybody can do it (at the same time even). 3) You won''t get spoils by doing it. 4) Not letting a player start at the same time as everybody else is against the idea of "play whenever".

I would actually go one further and say, that I think the rule about waiting for a player or half the turn passes should be: waiting for player, or until the previous round would have ended(24 hours after previous round started). That way there are no surprises, and the idea of "play whenever" is still somewhat intact.

Well, just my two bits... I'm prolly gonna get flamed shitless now

[banana_hammocks]

I would actually go one further and say, that I think the rule about waiting for a player or half the turn passes should be: waiting for player, or until the previous round would have ended(24 hours after previous round started). That way there are no surprises, and the idea of "play whenever" is still somewhat intact.

Well, just my two bits... I'm prolly gonna get flamed shitless now

This was brought in because people were waiting to start their turn with 30 seconds left, thus making the other player miss their go, and getting a double turn. Thus the 12 hour rule was brought in, as that gave the best of both worlds.

The player who triggers a new round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes.
Taken from the instructions.....Hence showing that you should not be allowed back to back turns (ie. double turns)

[Artimis]

This was brought in because people were waiting to start their turn with 30 seconds left, thus making the other player miss their go, and getting a double turn. Thus the 12 hour rule was brought in, as that gave the best of both worlds.

The player who triggers a new round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes.
Taken from the instructions.....Hence showing that you should not be allowed back to back turns (ie. double turns)

Indeed, that the round clock resets the turn playability of all the players when the round time exceeds 24 hours is an oversight. I don't think that Lack would have left this in place deliberately when he was originally coding for the 12 hour/next player goes turn delay. It just needs fixing when he's decided on the appropriate piece of code for the patch.

[alster]

This was brought in because people were waiting to start their turn with 30 seconds left, thus making the other player miss their go, and getting a double turn. Thus the 12 hour rule was brought in, as that gave the best of both worlds.

The player who triggers a new round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes.
Taken from the instructions.....Hence showing that you should not be allowed back to back turns (ie. double turns)

Indeed, that the round clock resets the turn playability of all the players when the round time exceeds 24 hours is an oversight. I don't think that Lack would have left this in place deliberately when he was originally coding for the 12 hour/next player goes turn delay. It just needs fixing when he's decided on the appropriate piece of code for the patch.

Oh. Give it a break people. De facto double turns has been a part if freestyle games from the beginning. Has nothing to do with the 12h change. It's a perfectly good tactic available to everyone. And it's like everything else, you need to learn it. If you don't like it, play sequential. It's really that simple. Why are people who don't enjoy playing freestyle trying to change the game engine in a way that people who actually enjoy and play freestyle don't appreciate. Just stick to sequential God damnit!

[juventino]

This was brought in because people were waiting to start their turn with 30 seconds left, thus making the other player miss their go, and getting a double turn. Thus the 12 hour rule was brought in, as that gave the best of both worlds.

The player who triggers a new round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes.
Taken from the instructions.....Hence showing that you should not be allowed back to back turns (ie. double turns)

Indeed, that the round clock resets the turn playability of all the players when the round time exceeds 24 hours is an oversight. I don't think that Lack would have left this in place deliberately when he was originally coding for the 12 hour/next player goes turn delay. It just needs fixing when he's decided on the appropriate piece of code for the patch.

Oh. Give it a break people. De facto double turns has been a part if freestyle games from the beginning. Has nothing to do with the 12h change. It's a perfectly good tactic available to everyone. And it's like everything else, you need to learn it. If you don't like it, play sequential. It's really that simple. Why are people who don't enjoy playing freestyle trying to change the game engine in a way that people who actually enjoy and play freestyle don't appreciate. Just stick to sequential God damnit!

I strongly agree. I wish there were more things and tricks that could make the game more exciting.

[cramill]

Oh. Give it a break people. De facto double turns has been a part if freestyle games from the beginning. Has nothing to do with the 12h change. It's a perfectly good tactic available to everyone. And it's like everything else, you need to learn it. If you don't like it, play sequential. It's really that simple. Why are people who don't enjoy playing freestyle trying to change the game engine in a way that people who actually enjoy and play freestyle don't appreciate. Just stick to sequential God damnit!

I enjoyed playing freestyle until i got screwed over by someone who used this "tactic" (read: exploit) when I was unaware of it. It is not clear that this is possible in the game instructions - and I (along with many people) think that this was not meant to be a part of freestyle - and is mearly a side-effect.
Again, I don't agree that the "if you don't like it, don't play it" argument works here. Something needs to be changed - either the description in the game instructions (which would be simple to change and since it hasn't been changed yet shows that this is not an intended part of freestyle) or the game itself. My vote is for the latter.

[b00060]

Double turns are cheap and should be eliminated!

[Masli]

Oh. Give it a break people. De facto double turns has been a part if freestyle games from the beginning. Has nothing to do with the 12h change. It's a perfectly good tactic available to everyone. And it's like everything else, you need to learn it. If you don't like it, play sequential. It's really that simple. Why are people who don't enjoy playing freestyle trying to change the game engine in a way that people who actually enjoy and play freestyle don't appreciate. Just stick to sequential God damnit!

I enjoyed playing freestyle until i got screwed over by someone who used this "tactic" (read: exploit) when I was unaware of it. It is not clear that this is possible in the game instructions - and I (along with many people) think that this was not meant to be a part of freestyle - and is mearly a side-effect.
Again, I don't agree that the "if you don't like it, don't play it" argument works here. Something needs to be changed - either the description in the game instructions (which would be simple to change and since it hasn't been changed yet shows that this is not an intended part of freestyle) or the game itself. My vote is for the latter.

last time I was playing djt5483 and he double turned me 2. I did the same to him and won 2 out 3 by using his tactic. I don't like the tactic, so i stay away from playing those settings against players like djt5483.
It's just the way freestyle works. Ever made a freestyle doubles/trips/quads game on a simple map and got screwed... same thing for me.
Its cheap, I agree on that. But it is what it is

[Supreme_Pookie]

How about having an automatic "End Reinforcement" action occur just prior to time running out.
For perpetrators who practice this type of rule breaking, this "tactic" (as it's been incoorectly labeled) would then be rendered null and void.
The rules specifically state that if you're the last one to take a turn in the round then you can't be the one to play first in the next round.
This is a clear vio;ation of the rule.

This is a bug in need of extermination.

[Supreme_Pookie]

Double turns due to running out of time is a tactic that should be disallowed from the rules - claiming that it's a tactic is a load of shit and all of you know it... very shocked at Poo Maker for his comments - I thought that you were better than that.

C.

Yeti, the double turns in freestyle are what helps to make freestyle so much fun. Anyone and everyone can do it, so I don't see anything unfair about it.

Yeti: the unfair part is that the other players have to wait for the rule-breaking player.

[redhawk92]

Double turns due to running out of time is a tactic that should be disallowed from the rules - claiming that it's a tactic is a load of shit and all of you know it... very shocked at Poo Maker for his comments - I thought that you were better than that.

C.

Yeti, the double turns in freestyle are what helps to make freestyle so much fun. Anyone and everyone can do it, so I don't see anything unfair about it.

Yeti: the unfair part is that the other players have to wait for the rule-breaking player.

it isn't breaking the rules so grow up

[Thezzaruz]

The rules specifically state that if you're the last one to take a turn in the round then you can't be the one to play first in the next round.

Not true, it states that the player that triggers a new round is prohibited from going first.

This is a clear vio;ation of the rule.

Not true.

This is a bug in need of extermination.

It is NOT a bug. I would still like to see the rules changed so that it isn't possible though.

[Supreme_Pookie]

The rules specifically state that if you're the last one to take a turn in the round then you can't be the one to play first in the next round.

Not true, it states that the player that triggers a new round is prohibited from going first.

This is a clear vio;ation of the rule.

Not true.

This is a bug in need of extermination.

It is NOT a bug. I would still like to see the rules changed so that it isn't possible though.

Thanks for technically correcting me Thezzaruz.
Can you agree the spirit of the rule is being violated?
If not, why would you like the rule changed?

BTW, the automatic "End Reinforcement" action would trigger the new round on behalf of the perp.

[Supreme_Pookie]

Double turns due to running out of time is a tactic that should be disallowed from the rules - claiming that it's a tactic is a load of shit and all of you know it... very shocked at Poo Maker for his comments - I thought that you were better than that.

C.

Yeti, the double turns in freestyle are what helps to make freestyle so much fun. Anyone and everyone can do it, so I don't see anything unfair about it.

Yeti: the unfair part is that the other players have to wait for the rule-breaking player.

it isn't breaking the rules so grow up

This is a discussion amongst adults. You probably don't qualify.

[redhawk92]

Double turns due to running out of time is a tactic that should be disallowed from the rules - claiming that it's a tactic is a load of shit and all of you know it... very shocked at Poo Maker for his comments - I thought that you were better than that.

C.

Yeti, the double turns in freestyle are what helps to make freestyle so much fun. Anyone and everyone can do it, so I don't see anything unfair about it.

Yeti: the unfair part is that the other players have to wait for the rule-breaking player.

it isn't breaking the rules so grow up

This is a discussion amongst adults. You probably don't qualify.

if cc hasnt fixed it by now how is it a bug?

[cramill]

if cc hasnt fixed it by now how is it a bug?

Maybe because they didn't have a good solution? The last update now logs if someone ended their turn... so this could lead to being able to fix this?

Or the jury is still out and the man in charge hasn't made up his mind about this yet?

[Thezzaruz]

Can you agree the spirit of the rule is being violated?
If not, why would you like the rule changed?

Yes I agree. I think the current writing of the rules is illogical and poor and I think the freestyle setting is suffering from it. However I can see how/why it has evolved into the current rule and I agree with cramill that I think that lack still hasn't come to peace with what he thinks is the best rule for freestyle and/or have had technical difficulties with implementing it.

Thanks for technically correcting me Thezzaruz.

NP, you seemed to need it.

BTW, the automatic "End Reinforcement" action would trigger the new round on behalf of the perp.

Well of course it would. It's an unnecessary and poor way to do it though.

if cc hasnt fixed it by now how is it a bug?

A bug is still a bug no matter how long it goes unfixed.
Not that this has any relevance to the issue at hand.

[Artimis]

BTW, the automatic "End Reinforcement" action would trigger the new round on behalf of the perp.

This could actually work, if the clock resets the round while you're still active then it triggers an automatic 'End Reinforcement' command, ending that players turn for that round and triggering the turn delay as intended. This idea is much better than the more draconian 'block everyone for 12 hours' idea. The impact on speed games would be minimal because everyone is present during a Freestyle Speed game, so no advantage is gained or lost with this change. Only Freestyle Casual games will be impacted and these are the games that needed addressing in the first place.

Nice one Pookie!

[azezzo]

In freestyle games, both casual and speed, some players, including top players on the scoreboard, purposely choose not to end their turns so as to be able to start the following round immediately, thus holding onto any bonuses they aquired, and or attack and weaken their unsuspecting opponents b4 they can start.

Change this loophole in the freestyle format so that a player can not double turn.

This will improve the following aspects of the site by:

1) helping put an end to this form of farming
2) player retention, help keep new players from getting abused, thus causing them to leave
3) restrict point inflation


sorry, didnt look at old threads, feel free to merge this with another.

[fiction]

Seems the majority of people rightly see there is a problem so what is taking so long to solve it? I mean if it a logistics problem just make it a rule that you can't do it and lets ban the cheaters that do it. Why go through the effort of changing the code.

[djt5483]

Seems the majority of people rightly see there is a problem so what is taking so long to solve it? I mean if it a logistics problem just make it a rule that you can't do it and lets ban the cheaters that do it. Why go through the effort of changing the code.

you must just be mad that im about to beat you

[fiction]

I am mad that you had to cheat to win yes but Herpes also used it against me and I was equally pissed. You cheaters hind behind technicalities and then when you get corned just say I just play for fun stop taking it so seriously. I play for fun to and that's why don't play like a coward and cheat.