[Abandoned] - Europe 1099 - The 1st Crusade

[Beko the Great]

again about gameplay what about a Norge-Scotland sea connexion making those bonus less holdable?

As you might see in this map there are huge "continents" which are really difficult to hold and small continents relatively easy to hold. Adding a Alba-Norway connection, Scandinavian would be difficult to hold but most of all England would be really really difficult to hold and definetly worth of a +3 bonus. That way, those few continents which could lead other ways of starting building an "Empire" than conquering holy places only, would virtualy disappear. And gameplay would be poor.
That's my point.

Thanks for continuing support!

[gorehound]

Sorry, haven't read all the thread yet, so excuse me if this has been mentioned before but on a quick spelling note -

conquer all the Maurish

should be Moorish - (the Moors) from North Africa conquered southern France and most of Spain. they were extremely tolerant of all other religions, btw. Not like the Christians,

gorehound

[Incandenza]

A few quick comments:

I like the way you have gameplay set up, in that much of the action gets sucked into jerusalem. However, attainable bonuses without jerusalem are a bit thin on the ground. Consider possibly making Muslim Iberia a +1. Or if you could tweak the Balkans so that it only has 3 borders and bump it down to a +3.

The army circle for Medina Mayurqa (Majorca) almost completely covers the island on both maps, making it difficult to see that the island is part of the Christian Iberia bonus. If you could tweak that, t'would be great.

Also, while 60 starting terits is good for 2/3 player games, it's bad for 4p (15 starting terits each). Not sure if this is a solvable problem, as it would involve either cutting one terits or having another starting neutral, just something to consider.

Oh, and the legend still has England as a +3.

Great work here, Beko. As a medieval history nut myself, I commend you for your work and research, and I can't wait to play this map.

[Beko the Great]

A few quick comments:

I like the way you have gameplay set up, in that much of the action gets sucked into jerusalem. However, attainable bonuses without jerusalem are a bit thin on the ground. Consider possibly making Muslim Iberia a +1. Or if you could tweak the Balkans so that it only has 3 borders and bump it down to a +3.

The army circle for Medina Mayurqa (Majorca) almost completely covers the island on both maps, making it difficult to see that the island is part of the Christian Iberia bonus. If you could tweak that, t'would be great.

Also, while 60 starting terits is good for 2/3 player games, it's bad for 4p (15 starting terits each). Not sure if this is a solvable problem, as it would involve either cutting one terits or having another starting neutral, just something to consider.

Oh, and the legend still has England as a +3.

Great work here, Beko. As a medieval history nut myself, I commend you for your work and research, and I can't wait to play this map.

About England bonus, sorry for that, I just forgot to change!
About Muslim Iberia worth +1 instead of "All Iberia bonus" definitly no, because if so, you just lose the spirit of the "Reconquista".
I don't see the problem of 4 players 15 starting territs each... can you specify, please?
I see what you talk about Balkans, but I don't see... add coast to Hungary!? Extent Croatia until Austria border!? Bulgaria near to Mediterranean coast!? I just can't change geography!

Thanks for continuing supporting!

[LED ZEPPELINER]

I personally don't really like the outer glow on the borders. I say scrap them, or you could make them blend in a really good amount more. There is just something about them that takes away from the old feeling of the map. I now notice that you forgot to fill in the lakes on Sverige (or sweden i think). I would also suggest some impassables because at the moment. A lot of the bonuses are either really hard to hold, and a few of them are really easy.

[alexandrois]

Could you put names in the sea? Although there could be a problem in which language

[Beko the Great]

I personally don't really like the outer glow on the borders. I say scrap them, or you could make them blend in a really good amount more. There is just something about them that takes away from the old feeling of the map. I now notice that you forgot to fill in the lakes on Sverige (or sweden i think). I would also suggest some impassables because at the moment. A lot of the bonuses are either really hard to hold, and a few of them are really easy.

About impassables I've already thought on that but it would be incoherent... For example if I had the Carpathos between Balgaryia and Byzantine Empire, I would have to add the Pirenees, leaving Spain too easy to defend and the Alps just dividing the HRE. About the lakes, consider it done, thanks for notice. About the glow of borders I'll see what I can do about it.

Cheers!

[Incandenza]

Well, just because you've added one impassable, doesn't mean you need to have every single physical feature in Europe as an impassable. Just by adding, say, a short Rhine (separating Flandres and Dijon from Lothringen) and the Carpathians (shorten up Balgaria and separate it from Thessalonike and Constantinople), some of the bonuses become much more realistic. You could even add the Pyrenees to separate Gascogne and Navarra, but then have Majorca attack Toulouse instead of Aragon.

I'm a big geography buff, myself, and I respect your desire to keep the map as close to 1099 borders and physical features as possible, but sometimes a tweak or two is needed for gameplay purposes. Form follows function.

[Teflon Kris]

On the point above, having 15 starting terits in a 4-player game (e.g. 2 v 2) means player 1 gets 5 troops to deploy and takes a territory from another player, meaning he only gets 14 terits and 4 to deploy. It's like a +1 bonus for the first player (and going first is an advantage anyway). Not the biggest problem around but worth avoiding if possible.

If you had 59 starting terits (i.e. a neutral somewhere) then each player would get 14, aleviating the problem.

[Aline_Cedrac]

I'm having problems when viewing the several versions of the map...what happened with the files? Hope you are able to solve the problem quickly and continue to work on the map! I'm pretty excited to imagine me playing it soon!

Cheers,

Aline

[jefjef]

so many posts... finally found map on page 12.... don't know if been suggested or asked but why is Scandanavia only worth 1 ?????????? The vikings were no push over in those days.........

[captainwalrus]

I donn't know if this is just my computer, but it says file not found. Why?

[iancanton]

i suspect that something's gone wrong with beko's file-hosting account. he hasn't commented for over a month, so this one's headed to the recycling bin.

beko, when u're ready to continue, send a pm to one of the foundry mods.

ian.

[Beko the Great]

Ok I'm back!

Well, just because you've added one impassable, doesn't mean you need to have every single physical feature in Europe as an impassable. Just by adding, say, a short Rhine (separating Flandres and Dijon from Lothringen) and the Carpathians (shorten up Balgaria and separate it from Thessalonike and Constantinople), some of the bonuses become much more realistic. You could even add the Pyrenees to separate Gascogne and Navarra, but then have Majorca attack Toulouse instead of Aragon.

I'm a big geography buff, myself, and I respect your desire to keep the map as close to 1099 borders and physical features as possible, but sometimes a tweak or two is needed for gameplay purposes. Form follows function.

I've thought deeply on in and I have a sketch of impassables. I'll just post it as soon as this is moved to the main forge again.

About the images I solved the problem of last version though I hadn't uploaded again all the other images.

Cheers

[iancanton]

as requested, moved back to the main foundry.

ian.

[Beko the Great]

Thank you ian!
I've hosted all the previous versions on imageshack! I hope they don't fail to me now.

[Beko the Great]

So... after a long period of meditation, hard work in real life and finally determination to come back... here it is...

Version 14

Large Map:

[bigimg]http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/8284/europelargev14.jpg[/bigimg]

Small Map:



Graphics

Added impassables:
The Rhine between Lothringen and Flandres/Dijon;
The White Carpathians between Magyarország/Hrvatska and Bayern/Böhmen
The Balkan Range between Balgarya and Thesalonike/Konstantinoupolis
The Pirenees between Gascogne and Navarra/Aragon
The Pontic Mountains between Trapezountos and Konya

Gameplay
Bonus:
British Isles + 2
Kingdom of France + 5 (previously 6)
Holy Roman Empire + 7 (previously 9)
Scandinavian Kingdoms + 1
Balkans +2 (previously 4)
Byzantine Empire + 5 (previously 6)
Seljuk Turks + 5
Islamic Caliphates + 6
Italian Independent States + 3
All Iberia + 4
Only Christian Iberia + 2 (previously 3)

To Discuss:
Impassable graphics...what would make them better?
Gameplay: Are bonus fair? Add more impassables? One-way attacks? Where?

Please give your feedback!
Cheers!

[jefjef]

There should be a sea route between Norge & England.. After all the vikings did boat over & sacked england a couple of times.... & I think scandanavia should really still be worth 2.. & I bet there are passes in spain that allow travel/invasion North & not just south. ( maybe the portugal side)..... & england should be a little more stout.. maybe worth 3.. Nice work....

[Echospree]

I'm not sure if a sea route is necessary. This will make the British Isles and Scandinavia more attractive opening positions, to compensate for their lack of access to Rome and Yerushalayim.

[Beko the Great]

There should be a sea route between Norge & England.. After all the vikings did boat over & sacked england a couple of times.... & I think scandanavia should really still be worth 2..

I'm not convinced about that but I'll just open a poll to discuss! In my opinion I would like pretty much a one way attack Norge -> England. That would be intersting...

I bet there are passes in spain that allow travel/invasion North & not just south.

Well... of course people from southern Spain can go northern Spain but one-way attack will lead... the Christians (northern) to conquer south and not the oposite as it happened in history by the time of the Crusades

[jefjef]

I'm not convinced about that but I'll just open a poll to discuss! In my opinion I would like pretty much a one way attack Norge -> England. That would be intersting.

Well... of course people from southern Spain can go northern Spain but one-way attack will lead... the Christians (northern) to conquer south and not the oposite as it happened in history by the time of the Crusades

Well a northern passage in spain would be one of those variables in war... And the one way attack from norge would be historically accurate.. I do not recall england returning the favor by attacking norway.

[Beko the Great]

I'm not convinced about that but I'll just open a poll to discuss! In my opinion I would like pretty much a one way attack Norge -> England. That would be intersting.

Well... of course people from southern Spain can go northern Spain but one-way attack will lead... the Christians (northern) to conquer south and not the oposite as it happened in history by the time of the Crusades

Well a northern passage in spain would be one of those variables in war... And the one way attack from norge would be historically accurate.. I do not recall england returning the favor by attacking norway.

That northern passage is able via-Medina Mayurqa-Aragon and I think I will add the one way attack norge-england...

I'm having problems creating a poll

[jefjef]

Yes.. you are correct about the spain thing.... that works.... Still think england needs to be worth more.. After all they did give france fits & was not easily conquered by anyone.... I'll stop bugging ya now.. Looking forward to your finished product...... 5 stars to ya

[Beko the Great]

Yes.. you are correct about the spain thing.... that works.... Still think england needs to be worth more.. After all they did give france fits & was not easily conquered by anyone.... I'll stop bugging ya now.. Looking forward to your finished product...... 5 stars to ya

In previous version if you check, Englang was worth of 3 but in the time it was discussed and was down to two... with this attack route between norge and England it will go up to 3 surely.

Thanks for all the support and feedback!

[jefjef]

Ha.. fooled ya... you thought i was done. Think its worth a Look at scandanavia being worth 2 also.....