The fundamental flaw in capitalism

[Japs]

The concept of the market regulating itself is quite an ingenious one, and it often works: people, working towards their best interest in the form of profit, will do what's best for others in exchange for better business. I, as a customer, am more likely to buy a quality product from a responsible company; therefore the company will will act responsibly to earn my business (or at the very least, try to look responsible). People with more knowledge of economics than I will tell you how this specifies into more individual-based sense, and expands into a more general, national sense.

But all of economic conservatism goes off something else as well: the assumption that money is something we earn. Someone with a lot of money deserves it, because they earned it. That's why it's fundamentally wrong to share benefits equally. That's why we shouldn't take money from the rich and use it to help others.
Unfortunately, this assumption is incorrect.

The reason capitalism is flawed is because we're able to inherit our parent's money, thereby achieving wealth we didn't earn. Either the law should be changed so that a person's wealth disappears when they die (it actually goes back to the government), or since children inherit wealth, they should also inherit parents' debt, crimes, etc as well.

Right now, a new person randomly inherits their social status from someone random (your parents could be rich or poor, and you had no effect on that). If we simply shift our application of "inheritance" slightly, something else will make more sense: we all inherit our wealth from everyone who came before us. Family ties are still an important construct, don't get me wrong. But they fragment our society into millions of smaller societies, all fighting against eachother. If we simply view the entire country as fundamentally our family, individual inheritance becomes rather silly... and this is how we should view things, from a policy perspective. If you truly believe in the ability of the best to earn their way to the top on their own merits, then everyone should start out equal. According to capitalistic theory, Bill Gates would have been successful if he had been born in a ghetto, right? Well, with shared inheritance, everyone would begin their lives with a moderate, if not especially helpful, amount of wealth--better than many do today.

Bill Gates Never finished college and didnt like to use his parents money. He was richer than they were in a few years. Capatalism Does not have a flaw its your thinking. GO LIVE WITH THE COMMIES!!!!

[black elk speaks]

The concept of the market regulating itself is quite an ingenious one, and it often works: people, working towards their best interest in the form of profit, will do what's best for others in exchange for better business. I, as a customer, am more likely to buy a quality product from a responsible company; therefore the company will will act responsibly to earn my business (or at the very least, try to look responsible). People with more knowledge of economics than I will tell you how this specifies into more individual-based sense, and expands into a more general, national sense.

But all of economic conservatism goes off something else as well: the assumption that money is something we earn. Someone with a lot of money deserves it, because they earned it. That's why it's fundamentally wrong to share benefits equally. That's why we shouldn't take money from the rich and use it to help others.
Unfortunately, this assumption is incorrect.

The reason capitalism is flawed is because we're able to inherit our parent's money, thereby achieving wealth we didn't earn. Either the law should be changed so that a person's wealth disappears when they die (it actually goes back to the government), or since children inherit wealth, they should also inherit parents' debt, crimes, etc as well.

Right now, a new person randomly inherits their social status from someone random (your parents could be rich or poor, and you had no effect on that). If we simply shift our application of "inheritance" slightly, something else will make more sense: we all inherit our wealth from everyone who came before us. Family ties are still an important construct, don't get me wrong. But they fragment our society into millions of smaller societies, all fighting against eachother. If we simply view the entire country as fundamentally our family, individual inheritance becomes rather silly... and this is how we should view things, from a policy perspective. If you truly believe in the ability of the best to earn their way to the top on their own merits, then everyone should start out equal. According to capitalistic theory, Bill Gates would have been successful if he had been born in a ghetto, right? Well, with shared inheritance, everyone would begin their lives with a moderate, if not especially helpful, amount of wealth--better than many do today.

Bill Gates Never finished college and didnt like to use his parents money. He was richer than they were in a few years. Capatalism Does not have a flaw its your thinking. GO LIVE WITH THE COMMIES!!!!

Unfortunately, the lazy commies are coming here.

[Japs]

Australia.... one of the last educated places....

[bbqpenguin]

i would rather have my money burned than for it to go to the government when i die

[Frigidus]

Just throwing a little tidbit out there...only 2% of the population will die outside of the economic class that they are born into. Kind of throws a wrench into the social mobility idea, eh?

[bbqpenguin]

Just throwing a little tidbit out there...only 2% of the population will die outside of the economic class that they are born into. Kind of throws a wrench into the social mobility idea, eh?

really? i hear 48.2345%...

[hecter]

I was raised on welfare in a family where my father didn't want to work. There were times when all we had was fucking cheese sandwiches. We had nothing, but my dad sure did like to bet on horses. Thats right America. My father bet your tax dollar handout and lost almost every day.

He did exactly what he wanted, but unfortunately, that never amounted to him putting a resume together and getting a job. He smoked expensive cigars while getting that government check. All the while, we panhandled to the government for a handout.

In my heart, I knew that it was bull shit and i wish we didn't have welfare so that my loser father would have had to actually work at something to make a living. I left home and never looked back.

I have no problem with people getting help when and where needed, but the government is not the place where that needs to come from. They have not the right to do it nor are they burdened with the responsibility.

Good for you, you managed you get yourself out of a bad situation. What would you have done if you didn't have to panhandle? If you had food to eat and all that fun stuff? Did you go to college? I bet you've got a ton of student loans to pay off if you did. See, your situation was a problem with the current system that makes the assumption that people know what they're doing, and will do the right thing. They don't. They gave your dad money, he spent it all away. Solution? When giving out welfare, make sure the person you're giving it to either has a job or is looking for one, make sure it's being spent properly, ect. ect. Small government makes the assumption that people know what they're doing, but they don't. People are idiots. Most of the time, they've got money to give to somebody to do stuff for them (do you do your own taxes, fix your computer and your car, do your own electrical work in your house, your plumbing, build your own furniture, grow your own food, handle all your own investments, the list goes on) but some people just don't know how to manage money. Sure, some people are just lazy bastards, but not all of them are, and by saying they are you're really just condemning the people who aren't and their children to poverty. And condemning children just makes you a god damned asshole.

[Japs]

I was raised on welfare in a family where my father didn't want to work. There were times when all we had was fucking cheese sandwiches. We had nothing, but my dad sure did like to bet on horses. Thats right America. My father bet your tax dollar handout and lost almost every day.

He did exactly what he wanted, but unfortunately, that never amounted to him putting a resume together and getting a job. He smoked expensive cigars while getting that government check. All the while, we panhandled to the government for a handout.

In my heart, I knew that it was bull shit and i wish we didn't have welfare so that my loser father would have had to actually work at something to make a living. I left home and never looked back.

I have no problem with people getting help when and where needed, but the government is not the place where that needs to come from. They have not the right to do it nor are they burdened with the responsibility.

Good for you, you managed you get yourself out of a bad situation. What would you have done if you didn't have to panhandle? If you had food to eat and all that fun stuff? Did you go to college? I bet you've got a ton of student loans to pay off if you did. See, your situation was a problem with the current system that makes the assumption that people know what they're doing, and will do the right thing. They don't. They gave your dad money, he spent it all away. Solution? When giving out welfare, make sure the person you're giving it to either has a job or is looking for one, make sure it's being spent properly, ect. ect. Small government makes the assumption that people know what they're doing, but they don't. People are idiots. Most of the time, they've got money to give to somebody to do stuff for them (do you do your own taxes, fix your computer and your car, do your own electrical work in your house, your plumbing, build your own furniture, grow your own food, handle all your own investments, the list goes on) but some people just don't know how to manage money. Sure, some people are just lazy bastards, but not all of them are, and by saying they are you're really just condemning the people who aren't and their children to poverty. And condemning children just makes you a god damned asshole.

So we switch to Communism/Socialism give every body enough money that there is no possible way that they will squander it all? Well if you want you taxes to go way up to pay for all this be my guest. However dont they teach this in school? Its a regular class called ECONOMICS! Everyone has the opprotunity to go to a public school.

[hecter]

You're not in public school if you're too busy panhandling because you don't have any food.

[Japs]

Your right. Unfortunatly for your theory you not out looking for food. Your in jail getting it paid for by tax dollars.

[hecter]

What are you talking about? Let me make something clear, to be perfectly honest with you, I couldn't care less about poor adults. For what ever reason, they are in the situation that they're in and they should be able to make their own decisions and hopefully and eventually pull themselves out of poverty or make do with being poor. But the children deserve better. And the best way to do that is to make sure their parents have money and are spending it properly.

[Japs]

so were going to control their parents so they make the "right choices"?

[hecter]

Who said anything about control? If they aren't going to spend the money properly, then give them suggestions on how to spend the money. If they ignore said suggestions, stop giving them money. There's no control here.

[Japs]

How are you going to track them. You implied control with your previous statement

[spurgistan]

Well, of course we're going to control parents to make sure they raise their kids to become atheist, apathetic lay-arounds. With mind-rays, if our liberal super-laboratory invents them in the next 74 days.

[Matroshka]

Shouldn't DSS come in to play in those situations?

Hell, DSS threatened to take my sister's kids away from her once because my nephew chased her car down the street.

[Japs]

Our government is so messed up.

[black elk speaks]

I was raised on welfare in a family where my father didn't want to work. There were times when all we had was fucking cheese sandwiches. We had nothing, but my dad sure did like to bet on horses. Thats right America. My father bet your tax dollar handout and lost almost every day.

He did exactly what he wanted, but unfortunately, that never amounted to him putting a resume together and getting a job. He smoked expensive cigars while getting that government check. All the while, we panhandled to the government for a handout.

In my heart, I knew that it was bull shit and i wish we didn't have welfare so that my loser father would have had to actually work at something to make a living. I left home and never looked back.

I have no problem with people getting help when and where needed, but the government is not the place where that needs to come from. They have not the right to do it nor are they burdened with the responsibility.

Good for you, you managed you get yourself out of a bad situation. What would you have done if you didn't have to panhandle? If you had food to eat and all that fun stuff? Did you go to college? I bet you've got a ton of student loans to pay off if you did. See, your situation was a problem with the current system that makes the assumption that people know what they're doing, and will do the right thing. They don't. They gave your dad money, he spent it all away. Solution? When giving out welfare, make sure the person you're giving it to either has a job or is looking for one, make sure it's being spent properly, ect. ect. Small government makes the assumption that people know what they're doing, but they don't. People are idiots. Most of the time, they've got money to give to somebody to do stuff for them (do you do your own taxes, fix your computer and your car, do your own electrical work in your house, your plumbing, build your own furniture, grow your own food, handle all your own investments, the list goes on) but some people just don't know how to manage money. Sure, some people are just lazy bastards, but not all of them are, and by saying they are you're really just condemning the people who aren't and their children to poverty. And condemning children just makes you a god damned asshole.

Yup! A ton of student loans. and I am paying that back. That is hardly a hand out.

As for your stupid idiot people and their inability to basically function in the world that they were born into, f*ck all of them. If they can't manage their money, f*ck them, they made their bed. If they can't seem to budget their time to effectively raise their own kids, f*ck them, they make their own bed.

If I shoot a deer and I want to skin it and eat it, and my neighbor has no food, guess what. He can go and kill his own deer. It would serve him far greater in life to learn to hunt rather than panhandle for a handout every time simply because if I fall on hard times, then we both starve.

I am not responsible for the children of everyone else in this world. I have my own to care for. In that, I live up to my obligation. But don't tell me that I am an ass hole because I choose to work for what is mine and wish to preserve that by passing it on to my own children when I die. This isn't a fucking commune. What's yours is yours and what's mine is mine. If you want to try and take it, be ready to die.

[hecter]

But don't tell me that I am an ass hole because I choose to work for what is mine and wish to preserve that by passing it on to my own children when I die. This isn't a fucking commune. What's yours is yours and what's mine is mine. If you want to try and take it, be ready to die.

I'm not calling you an asshole because you worked for what is yours, I'm calling you an asshole because you're choosing to let people who you live with suffer rather than help them. While you may not live in a communist country where you have no choice but to give up all your possessions for the "good of the people", you also don't live in a libertarian society. The government has a responsibility to it's citizens - all of them - to keep them safe and to keep them happy. If you don't like it, go live out in international waters, where that philosophy lives on.

[black elk speaks]

But don't tell me that I am an ass hole because I choose to work for what is mine and wish to preserve that by passing it on to my own children when I die. This isn't a fucking commune. What's yours is yours and what's mine is mine. If you want to try and take it, be ready to die.

I'm not calling you an asshole because you worked for what is yours, I'm calling you an asshole because you're choosing to let people who you live with suffer rather than help them. While you may not live in a communist country where you have no choice but to give up all your possessions for the "good of the people", you also don't live in a libertarian society. The government has a responsibility to it's citizens - all of them - to keep them safe and to keep them happy. If you don't like it, go live out in international waters, where that philosophy lives on.

Sorry, but you are wrong. I would love to help as many people as I can learn the skills that I have to offer. I hunt, I am a professional IT manager, I have basic mechanical and carpentry skills. If you have a question, ask and I will give my advice. If you need help doing some work, ask and if I can I will help. But this whole idea about giving people a handout is bull shit.

Look what is happening in corporate AmeriKa. Chrysler is on the verge of collapse, but with their hand out, they are going to pilfer the Federal coffers to keep their out dated business practices operating. 10 years ago they should have become more fuel efficient. They still won't do it. Let them go under, I say.

And your assertion that the government is somehow responsible to keep people happy is strictly retarded. The government is obligated to allow you to pursue happiness, but not to provide it.

I would much rather be an ass hole that completely stupid as you seem to be.

[PLAYER57832]

As someone who built all of their wealth from the ground up I am excited that when the day comes and I die that my kids will have it easier then I did. The "death tax" needs to be gotten rid of. Of course whatever debt (if any) I have the estate has to pay off first before the distribution of wealth does occur.

Except that many kid's, young adults lives have been ruined by getting way too much too soon.

Anyway, no doubt this will be met with howls of "if you work hard money will magically appear for you!!!1" and "I earned everything and I started life living in a cardboard box!!!1"; but that's only because you're all happy with your current situations and just wish you could stockpile yet more wealth. If you were ever faced with the genuine prospect of actual poverty and hardship then you'd suddenly be a lot more receptive to the point Ditocoaf is making, and a lot less tied up with these fallacious stock-lines about how anything is possible for anyone if they just work harder... because as any sweatshop working in the world will tell you, that's bullshit.

A couple of points. First, EVERYONE could do with a bit of "walk a mile in their shoes before you judge".

Also, a recently published scientific study indicats that people who spend money on others really are happier than those who spend it on themselves. (if your basic needs are already met).

Which might be why so many of those spoiled rich kids are depressed and seeking "fulfillment" in so many places.

(I DO know some very wealthy kids who are most definitely NOT spoiled!)

[pancakemix]

Exactly why we need to spread the wealth; more social services, welfare, ect. ect. I'm an aspiring computer something-or-other. It's math, it's what I enjoy, it's what I'm good at. I'm not really good at anything else, I suck at languages, always have, and I suck at sports, always have. I'll never be very good at those things, no matter how hard I try. It's just not in me. But I'm lucky. I have a computer and money to upgrade it and school has given me the skills to program it. With the help of the internet, which I am fortunate to have, I can do all sorts of things. Let's put me in a different scenario.

I'm born to an abusive and alcoholic father and drug addicted mother. I have nothing, as all money goes to booze and drugs. I have enough food to not starve, and a roof over my head. So what am I to do? Let's say my dad gets arrested at some point, not an uncommon occurrence. So now I'm left with my mother to take care of me. I go to school, but it gets harder and harder. My mom doesn't care if I go, and they force me to learn French which I hate and I'll never be good at (really, I won't. I'm French, with a French family who I see relatively frequently and took what's called French immersion for 8 years and I can barely speak a word of it) so why should I go? So, I don't. Now what do I do? I'll probably end up working dead end jobs for the rest of my life, get involved in illegal activity and other things that happen every day in the ghetto's.

To every one of you who say "Well, if people really care, they can get themselves out of bad situations." I tell you, put yourself in a situation like that. And I mean really put yourself in it. Spend a few days thinking long and hard about it, play through scenarios in your head, remember what it was like when you were a kid and think about what you would have done then as you would have done it differently than you would now, remember, and see if you can still say that afterwards. If you can, then you're either incredibly unique or a liar.

It's true, A lot of people do give up in that early stage, but you're only proving the other point. In that situation, you don't work hard. You're just being lazy. If you actually try, you'll get recognized and might actually amount to something. And if you have friends who actually care about you, you can go to them for encouragement and just ignore your mom.

So yes, if you care, you can get yourself out of a bad situation if you try. If you just give up like that situation, you deserve that lifestyle.

[PLAYER57832]

It's true, A lot of people do give up in that early stage, but you're only proving the other point. In that situation, you don't work hard. You're just being lazy. If you actually try, you'll get recognized and might actually amount to something. And if you have friends who actually care about you, you can go to them for encouragement and just ignore your mom.

So yes, if you care, you can get yourself out of a bad situation if you try. If you just give up like that situation, you deserve that lifestyle.

Except to try, you have to have hope. To have hope, you have to know that something else is possible. This is very, very hard or even impossible in some situations.

[black elk speaks]

It's true, A lot of people do give up in that early stage, but you're only proving the other point. In that situation, you don't work hard. You're just being lazy. If you actually try, you'll get recognized and might actually amount to something. And if you have friends who actually care about you, you can go to them for encouragement and just ignore your mom.

So yes, if you care, you can get yourself out of a bad situation if you try. If you just give up like that situation, you deserve that lifestyle.

Except to try, you have to have hope. To have hope, you have to know that something else is possible. This is very, very hard or even impossible in some situations.

A sad reality of life is that everyone doesn't make it. But one way to ensure that no one makes it is to require that everyone makes it. For sure, if you are handicapped, there should be allowance. If you are ignorant, then you should be educated. but to guarantee that everyone have happiness and that everyone have their mortgage paid is ludicrous.

[hecter]

Sorry, but you are wrong. I would love to help as many people as I can learn the skills that I have to offer. I hunt, I am a professional IT manager, I have basic mechanical and carpentry skills. If you have a question, ask and I will give my advice. If you need help doing some work, ask and if I can I will help. But this whole idea about giving people a handout is bull shit.

Look what is happening in corporate AmeriKa. Chrysler is on the verge of collapse, but with their hand out, they are going to pilfer the Federal coffers to keep their out dated business practices operating. 10 years ago they should have become more fuel efficient. They still won't do it. Let them go under, I say.

And your assertion that the government is somehow responsible to keep people happy is strictly retarded. The government is obligated to allow you to pursue happiness, but not to provide it.

I would much rather be an ass hole that completely stupid as you seem to be.

Of course the government has to keep people happy! If they don't then in a democratic society they'll get voted out for somebody who will keep them happy (and in an authoritarian hopefully there will be a revolution). It's basic politics. And you're right about Chrysler. f*ck them, they ran their practice poorly and now they're failing, just like they should. But that's the nature of business. But that doesn't really mean that people are suffering. Of course, people will lose jobs, but they'll be able to find better ones and, if they are in dire need, the government can and should step in with social services to help them.

Also, I don't think you have any idea about what I'm saying. The government shouldn't be giving out "handouts", it's about giving people help so they can be productive members of society. It's not like "unconditional welfare for everybody making below 30 grand a year!", it's services - whether it be welfare or a free nightschool course on how to properly write a resume (it's not like welfare is the only fucking social service on the planet) - for those that want and need it. If somebody decides to squander their welfare money, despite attempts to teach them how to manage money, then take it away from them. If people aren't going to use your help, then don't give it to them. Let them live in their shit hole picking cigarette butts off the ground in an attempt to get a whole cigarette, or hoping to scrounge up enough change to make another bet on the horses. But, I've said it once and I'll say it again, why punish everybody because of the few that you'll never reach?