free will vs omniscience

[Juan_Bottom]

why is it that everyone seems to think that "God" has to have a consciousness at all? Why does there actually have to be a purpose to creation other than to have been created? True, I believe in a higher being that is the creator of all and the giver of life... but i don't think that it has a consciousness or a will or a plan. It is just an abundance of energy that issues forth into the physical world as the manifestation that we call life.

Pagan???

[InkL0sed]

why is it that everyone seems to think that "God" has to have a consciousness at all? Why does there actually have to be a purpose to creation other than to have been created? True, I believe in a higher being that is the creator of all and the giver of life... but i don't think that it has a consciousness or a will or a plan. It is just an abundance of energy that issues forth into the physical world as the manifestation that we call life.

Pagan???

No. Romanticization.

[polarbeast23]

I just don't buy the "I am the i am" crap.

[Neoteny]

I just don't buy the "I am the i am" crap.

God is Popeye?

[Backglass]

It is just an abundance of energy that issues forth into the physical world as the manifestation that we call life.

Then that wouldn't be a god would it. Welcome to atheism.

[polarbeast23]

It is just an abundance of energy that issues forth into the physical world as the manifestation that we call life.

Then that wouldn't be a god would it. Welcome to atheism.

I don't consider it atheism. I believe god to be all the things that you think a god might be, except without awareness.

[Neoteny]

It is just an abundance of energy that issues forth into the physical world as the manifestation that we call life.

Then that wouldn't be a god would it. Welcome to atheism.

I don't consider it atheism. I believe god to be all the things that you think a god might be, except without awareness.

Some sort of deism... I was a deist for a couple days...

[Backglass]

I don't consider it atheism. I believe god to be all the things that you think a god might be, except without awareness.

Kind of like saying "I believe a fork to be all the things that you think a fork might be, except without the tines."

[InkL0sed]

I'd call it agnosticism with a touch of poetry.

[PLAYER57832]

I HAVE THE ANSWER!!!!!!!

God knows exactly the way everything will happen AND we have free will to make our own choices.
he just already knows which choice we are going to make
(but see it is STILL our choice... he isnt dictating what we are doing, just knowing what we are doing.)

Exactly ... but a lot of folks here don't accept that answer.

[polarbeast23]

I don't consider it atheism. I believe god to be all the things that you think a god might be, except without awareness.

Kind of like saying "I believe a fork to be all the things that you think a fork might be, except without the tines."

no... I don't think so at all. Its more like

"I believe a fork to be all the things that you think a fork might be, except it doesn't think, act on its own, talk to selected humans, show favoritism to one race of people throughout the first half of its book of its over-inflated story of self worth, only to change its mind and then decide that the whole world is really the body of its family."

You can call it God if you want, and you can even impose your own persona onto it, making it capable of all kinds of human like behavior... that way, feeble little humans can actually relate to it. I just believe that, like a computer, it has a purpose, which is to serve as a channel for energy of creation to pour into the plane of physical reality.

[Neoteny]

I HAVE THE ANSWER!!!!!!!

God knows exactly the way everything will happen AND we have free will to make our own choices.
he just already knows which choice we are going to make
(but see it is STILL our choice... he isnt dictating what we are doing, just knowing what we are doing.)

Exactly ... but a lot of folks here don't accept that answer.

Because it doesn't make sense, dear. It seems that the most common argument involves separating the "creator agent" from the "omniscient agent" all the while claiming that they are the same agent. If they were separate, one would not know what she wrought and the other would know but not be at fault. Since we are combining both agents, she knows what she is doing, and is reprehensible for doing so.

[PLAYER57832]

Humankind has been making such fundamental, earth shattering discoveries as long as humans have existed. Most we now take for granted, but there are still things out there yet to be discovered, completely unknown.

You can call it a "cop out" all you like, but the REAL truth is there is a lot more about this world and this universe that we don't know than things we know.... and THAT is a completely logical FACT!

And in light of such heavy evidence against him/her, this is why you continue to believe in a God?
Just looking for some clearity...

This is an entirely different question, but I believe in God because when I have trouble, I feel God's presence, because I feel guided by God, because I have come to believe, in my heart that he exists AND there is no logical evidence to the contrary.

Reason is important, but it is no more the answer to everything than faith is the answer to everything.

Only in your head? You logic is that God does it all. But by definition, that isn't a logical answer. Where's the reasoning in that?

You answered your own question ... logic is not everything. Why? because logic is, by its very essence limited to what humans know and understand ... but a lot more exists than that.

[

Humanity is not 100% logical.

By definition or action?

BOTH

No, the baseline is HUMANITY, not logic.

We need logic AND we need faith.

We need it to be good to each other? Cause I'm awesome. Everyone in the Godless Heathens is awesome.
I know I'm kinda nit-picking, but this is what I'm getting from this so far...

[/quote]
Not nit-picking, just way off subject. "Being good" is a. subjective (what even is good?) b. nothing to do with ominiscence and free will. (you can choose good or bad, but what is each is a completely seperate issue.

[PLAYER57832]

But you do seem to accept that there is a fundamental paradox in beliving in an omniscient god and free will.

No, I don't see it as a paradox at all! I offered my explanation earlier, but several individuals don't like it. I accept that some other people feel this is a paradox... and simply won't accept any explanation offered so far.

Ok, let's say, despite our reason to your faith, that omniscience and free will can coexist. If you have an omnipotent and omniscient creator then there is no such thing as free will.

No, Christians believe that God is Ominiscient, the creater AND that we have free will. I already said youcan disagree, but that is what we believe.

Isn't it a terrible cop out to just say, 'well sure there is a paradox here, no one can explain how the two can co-exist, but i guess that's just how it is'? I mean, in that case what is reason for? Why do people spend so much time arguing over glitches in the bible? Why choose xianity over scientology, if reason isn't important?

Reason is important, but it is no more the answer to everything than faith is the answer to everything. This is getting to a circular discussion from other threads. I suspect that a large number of you are young enough that you might not have really experienced romantic love. You may think you have, (maybe you have), but until you experience it, it is hard to know exactly how illogical it is. YET, love is absolutely real and absolutely decides a lot of what goes on in this world.

Hate is equally illogical ... or can drive people to extremes of illogic, though the whole while they may well claim their actions are perfectly logical.

That is precisely why we have rules, in the Christian faith, the ten commandments and a variety of parables, etc. Often when people think they are being quite "logical" ... that is often the time to really and truly worry ... because more often than not, there is some minor flaw that they just cannot see.

This discussion is a very good example. You don't see how a God can be ominipotent and also allow us free will. So, instead of saying "well, I don't know everything and this happens to be one" .. you say "this is not logical". But, just who defines that logic ... you. So, it is circular. You set the definition of what logic means, in this case and therefore no one can possibly refute you ... and you know what? That is the same sort of argument that despots and religious fanatics alike have put forward.

Now I twist what you just said just a little bit, and it turns on you.[/quote] Only if you ignore what I really said. You can twist anything to mean what you wish, but that has no bearing on the original statement. Sorry.. that is most definitely NOT logic! It is extremely poor discussion/argument.

You say that "We can't know what God thinks." Do I sense a cop out? Therefore, you just omit all reasoning, and refuse to accept it, and in this case, no one can possibly refute you... and you know what? That is the same sort of arguement that priests and religious fanatics alike have put forward.

First, I don't say we don't know what God thinks... I say we don't know ALL of what God thinks. Big difference!

Second, I do NOT omit all reasoning...not at all! And I expressly stated so. Faith,( and feeling also), take over where reason does not apply.

There has to be a baseline somewhere, and logic/reason is it. The fact that this huge paradox in xian teaching is staring us in the face cannot be dismissed by saying 'it is beyond understanding'. May as well scrap science, philosophy, bible study class, school, everything.

No, the baseline is HUMANITY, not logic. Humanity includes logic... and the completely illogical feelings of love, hope, etc. AND other forms of complete illogic. I mentioned Sci Fi and Fantasy before. Again, there are stories abundant that illustrate this point quite well. Look at most of the Robot vs man genre, for example. OR, look at some of the old Star Trek stuff where the Vulcan mind is analyzed, explored. OR ... a thousand others that I can't think of this minute.

Humanity is not 100% logical.

And remember, all of those classes... biology, physics, Bible study, etc ... are all based upon the combination that makes humanity what it is. We need logic AND we need faith.

We. Do. Not. Need. Faith. Any other species have faith in gods the same way we do? Yes. Do they exist? Yes. Have many of them existed longer than humans? Yes.

Other species? Where, exactly? You must know something I don't, because to my knowledge humans are the only ones with enough mental capacity to have faith OR true logic!

Anyway, you are truly grasping at straws here.

Even if there are other species ... somewhere (and I actually believe there might be), they are not necessarily bound by anything that we call "logic", not at all. Just to give you an example, if you talk to folks from many different indigenous tribes, they often have very different ideas on what entails "logic" than we do. The aborigines, for example, and "dream time", etc. And, you know what? It works, in the context of their societies. They know many things that so-called "logical science" cannot answer ... even to this day.

If there is a fundament to humanity, it is to question and seek answers. We get those answers through all kinds of ways, not strictly what you call "logic". Fail to understand that and you limit yourself to the most narrow of teachings and thinking. It is only by allowing our minds to wander, only when we are able to accept the possibility that there are things out there that we don't understand, that at first glance might seem illogical, that we can grow, invent and truly create.

THAT is what truly seperates us, as a human species, from the animals around us.

[PLAYER57832]

I HAVE THE ANSWER!!!!!!!

God knows exactly the way everything will happen AND we have free will to make our own choices.
he just already knows which choice we are going to make
(but see it is STILL our choice... he isnt dictating what we are doing, just knowing what we are doing.)

Exactly ... but a lot of folks here don't accept that answer.

Because it doesn't make sense, dear. It seems that the most common argument involves separating the "creator agent" from the "omniscient agent" all the while claiming that they are the same agent. If they were separate, one would not know what she wrought and the other would know but not be at fault. Since we are combining both agents, she knows what she is doing, and is reprehensible for doing so.

Well, for something that so obviously "doesn't make sense", as you say, you have a long way to go before you can PROVE it is not true!

And, I never claimed they were seperate . .. that is a limitation you apply because you cannot conceive how it could be otherwise.

Actually, you just need to expand your mind a little more. You have been taught to think very narrowly. Either you will learn to expand yourself or you will find yourself limited greatly in the real world.

P.S. I am not only a scientist, I am also a creative author... I won't even say what genre, because I choose to remain anonymous here. But, there is most definitely more to humanity than pure logic ... particularly (and yes,I have to be a bit condescending here) what you want to pass off as "logic" .. which really is not .

[InkL0sed]

Actually, human beings are not the smartest beings on Earth. We just have the right combination of brains and opposable thumbs.

[MeDeFe]

It is just an abundance of energy that issues forth into the physical world as the manifestation that we call life.

Then that wouldn't be a god would it. Welcome to atheism.

I don't consider it atheism. I believe god to be all the things that you think a god might be, except without awareness.

Some sort of deism... I was a deist for a couple days...

Sounds like pantheism to me.

[Neoteny]

I HAVE THE ANSWER!!!!!!!

God knows exactly the way everything will happen AND we have free will to make our own choices.
he just already knows which choice we are going to make
(but see it is STILL our choice... he isnt dictating what we are doing, just knowing what we are doing.)

Exactly ... but a lot of folks here don't accept that answer.

Because it doesn't make sense, dear. It seems that the most common argument involves separating the "creator agent" from the "omniscient agent" all the while claiming that they are the same agent. If they were separate, one would not know what she wrought and the other would know but not be at fault. Since we are combining both agents, she knows what she is doing, and is reprehensible for doing so.

Well, for something that so obviously "doesn't make sense", as you say, you have a long way to go before you can PROVE it is not true!

And, I never claimed they were seperate . .. that is a limitation you apply because you cannot conceive how it could be otherwise.

Actually, you just need to expand your mind a little more. You have been taught to think very narrowly. Either you will learn to expand yourself or you will find yourself limited greatly in the real world.

P.S. I am not only a scientist, I am also a creative author... I won't even say what genre, because I choose to remain anonymous here. But, there is most definitely more to humanity than pure logic ... particularly (and yes,I have to be a bit condescending here) what you want to pass off as "logic" .. which really is not .

Oooh... condescension... I like it.

You would have to go much farther to prove it, than for me to disprove it. Claims of shadow-beings are generally frowned upon. For some reason, yours is much more famous.

I know you didn't claim they were separate, but for the argument to make sense logically (via inference or demonstration), I say that the agents must be separate. You say they are not, which is counterintuitive at best. Logically.

Anyhow, expanding my mind to its current breadth is a result of breaking free of the shackles of religion as imposed by ancient storytellers. You can belittle that all you want, the fact of the matter is I'm thinking for myself.

Also, not only am I a scientist, I'm also an alcoholic. I realize that there is more to humanity than logic (and I am one who appreciates the arts, creative writing in particular [here's hoping I've read something of yours, but if it's Christian fiction, I imagine I probably passed it up]), but logic has done much for humanity and is something I respect especially. All I know is your arguments make much more sense when I'm drunk.

[heavycola]

I HAVE THE ANSWER!!!!!!!

God knows exactly the way everything will happen AND we have free will to make our own choices.
he just already knows which choice we are going to make
(but see it is STILL our choice... he isnt dictating what we are doing, just knowing what we are doing.)

Exactly ... but a lot of folks here don't accept that answer.

That's just sidesteppign around the problem. I'm not sayign god dictates everything we do, only that, if he knows all we are ever going to do or think before we do or think it, then those actions and thoughts are preordained.

Player (or can we call you J.K.? ), you're a reasonable sort, and it's weird that you would point to quantum theory's inherent weirdnesses, and some vast unknowbale set of rules that we can naevr know about, or whatever, as a way out of this quandary.
Our actions and thoughts take place on a macroscopic level. We operate in the universe at a scale where newtonian laws hold fast. So did Jesus, and therefor god. We can predict where mercury will be in its orbit in two weeks' time; we can predict how quickly a rock dropped from the top of the empre state building will hit the ground. These do not change, because of the laws and rules that have enabled us to discover all that we know about the universe. You are suggesting that actually it's all chaotic, nothing is predictable, and that, given the success of the scientific method, is plainly nonsense.

You ARE copping out, I'm sorry. There is a fundamental discrepancy here. Although why xians can;t just say, 'welll maybe he isn't omnipotent' is beyond me.

[Neoteny]

I HAVE THE ANSWER!!!!!!!

God knows exactly the way everything will happen AND we have free will to make our own choices.
he just already knows which choice we are going to make
(but see it is STILL our choice... he isnt dictating what we are doing, just knowing what we are doing.)

Exactly ... but a lot of folks here don't accept that answer.

That's just sidesteppign around the problem. I'm not sayign god dictates everything we do, only that, if he knows all we are ever going to do or think before we do or think it, then those actions and thoughts are preordained.

Player (or can we call you J.K.? ), you're a reasonable sort, and it's weird that you would point to quantum theory's inherent weirdnesses, and some vast unknowbale set of rules that we can naevr know about, or whatever, as a way out of this quandary.
Our actions and thoughts take place on a macroscopic level. We operate in the universe at a scale where newtonian laws hold fast. So did Jesus, and therefor god. We can predict where mercury will be in its orbit in two weeks' time; we can predict how quickly a rock dropped from the top of the empre state building will hit the ground. These do not change, because of the laws and rules that have enabled us to discover all that we know about the universe. You are suggesting that actually it's all chaotic, nothing is predictable, and that, given the success of the scientific method, is plainly nonsense.

You ARE copping out, I'm sorry. There is a fundamental discrepancy here. Although why xians can;t just say, 'welll maybe he isn't omnipotent' is beyond me.

Ambrose tried redefining omniscient to me, which was the most reasonable argument I've seen, honestly.

[MeDeFe]

Also, not only am I a scientist, I'm also an alcoholic. I realize that there is more to humanity than logic (and I am one who appreciates the arts, creative writing in particular [here's hoping I've read something of yours, but if it's Christian fiction, I imagine I probably passed it up]), but logic has done much for humanity and is something I respect especially. All I know is your arguments make much more sense when I'm drunk.

Is that American alcoholic or Civilized World alcoholic? I hear on your side of the pond you can get in trouble for having one beer in university, even if you're older than 21, here all the pubs have agreed to make Wednesday the official student's day, with special offers and everything.

Tells you something about different mindsets...

[Neoteny]

Also, not only am I a scientist, I'm also an alcoholic. I realize that there is more to humanity than logic (and I am one who appreciates the arts, creative writing in particular [here's hoping I've read something of yours, but if it's Christian fiction, I imagine I probably passed it up]), but logic has done much for humanity and is something I respect especially. All I know is your arguments make much more sense when I'm drunk.

Is that American alcoholic or Civilized World alcoholic? I hear on your side of the pond you can get in trouble for having one beer in university, even if you're older than 21, here all the pubs have agreed to make Wednesday the official student's day, with special offers and everything.

Tells you something about different mindsets...

I dunno, I've never been caught.

[InkL0sed]

I don't think it's actually much of a cop out actually. After all, what is free will? Our ability to make decisions for ourselves? Well, what defines a decision? Is it the fact that we did one thing when we could have done something else? But does that in fact matter? The fact of the matter is that things went one way, and not the other.

So, we're left with defining free will as the ability to make a decision on our own, and not by force. Which doesn't conflict with an omniscient god, because things still could be predetermined by internal factors, rather than external.

[Backglass]

Actually, you just need to expand your mind a little more. You have been taught to think very narrowly. Either you will learn to expand yourself or you will find yourself limited greatly in the real world.

WOW. You believe that magical, supernatural gods exist, gods impregnate earth women, man-god offspring perform magic acts and evil demons are all around us...yet it is US who have been "taught to think narrowly"?! I am speechless. You were indoctrinated into your cult since birth I assume and know nothing else.

We are open to all possibilities. You are closed to ONE. We require evidence. You require none.

P.S. I am not only a scientist, I am also a creative author... I won't even say what genre, because I choose to remain anonymous here.

Bullshit. You speak like an arrogant high school kid so either you ARE one, or you never fully matured.

[PLAYER57832]

Actually, you just need to expand your mind a little more. You have been taught to think very narrowly. Either you will learn to expand yourself or you will find yourself limited greatly in the real world.

WOW. You believe that magical, supernatural gods exist, gods impregnate earth women, man-god offspring perform magic acts and evil demons are all around us...yet it is US who have been "taught to think narrowly"?! I am speechless. You were indoctrinated into your cult since birth I assume and know nothing else.

We are open to all possibilities. You are closed to ONE. We require evidence. You require none.

P.S. I am not only a scientist, I am also a creative author... I won't even say what genre, because I choose to remain anonymous here.

Bullshit. You speak like an arrogant high school kid so either you ARE one, or you never fully matured.

Just reread what you wrote.

I accept logic ... where it applies. But, it does not answer everything. I became a scientist because there were so many answers out there unknown, yet to be discovered. Where there is no clear answer, we are able to imagine, dream ... and believe.

Also, and you neatly sidestepped this, as have most everyone else answering me... the fact that we cannot, right now, understand and see something as logical is very, very, very different from saying it absolutely MUST be illogical.

I fully expect we will continue to discover more things. Quantum physics is merely one of the more recent discoveries. (not the most recent any longer, but I amnot familiar enough with some of the really, really new discoveries to discuss them).

I find it amazing that you place limitations on God, who, by our definition (Christian definition) has not limit... such as "he must adhere to laws of the world (though it was God who set them up and therefore God is certainly beyond them), laws of our universe (ditto) and that If he is ominiscient, that means he is dictating what we think.

As per the high school crack. Teh funny thing is I thought a lot like you when I was there. So, maybe that is why I am even bothering to answer.

So, chew on that!