Is God really Just?

[PLAYER57832]

Ah, but is God a viewer? No. He is the director. He chose that the kid would fall in the river. So the difference is, God (the director) chose our options, chose our decisions, and chose the consequences. Where as others (the viewer) would only see the options, decisions, and consequences.

No, God is the Creator. He is not a pupeteer, though he absolutely has the power.

God chose to give us free will. That is the bottom line. Why? ask youself. Would you rather be a happy animal, guided by instinct or a human capable of thinking, having discussions such as ours and with the ability to choose?

Choice means CHOICE. It means that some people choose badly. It means that other people pay the price ... sometimes lots of other people, BUT that is the price of freedom, of choice.
This is the idea that most of you seem to want to avoid.

Could God ensure we were all happy all the time, never had hurts or wants or anything? Yes. But, it would not be a real life, not as we know it.

God does intervene, occasionally. We don't know exactly why he intervenes in one case and not in another, but we DO know that each of our actions has multitudes of ramifications. Science Fiction and Fantasy each are rife with asking the question "what if" of analyzing what happens when people get what they think they want. That works for today, but not forever. God sees forever.

Right now, we are like my young son who would just love to eat nothing but suckers and potato chips. It would certainly make him happy right then! But, I know better. I know that if I let him do that, he would not be healthy and, ultimately, would not be happy.

Comparing suckers to things like the holocaust or rape is pretty trite. BUT, God is that much more than us. He sees all, he knows all. He let the holocaust happen, plain and simply, because no matter how horrible it was, no matter how much we, as humans could wish it would not have happened, God knew that what he would have to do to prevent it would be far, far worse. We have a hard time with that idea, because like my son who cannot look into the next few years, we cannot see our future.

God intervenes at times and not at others because if he interevened too much, we would be puppets. Yet, there are no doubt times when a small intervention does good, is best. So he does.

[william18]

Even if I was Athiest I would become Christian to be on the safe side.

That doesn't dirrectlt answer my question, some aspects were Judiasm, and another Islam.
The only thing that might remotly concern you is the time and energy, and the tithe's, but it's better then to go to hell.

[Juan_Bottom]

Even if I was Athiest I would become Christian to be on the safe side.

Are you aware of how that sounds? You don't have to be afraid of Atheism, you know? You already shunned Hindu, and Islam, and Buddism.... Would you join them all to be safe? You already are Atheist.

No. How can I be Athiest if I have a religion. Oh and the fact that why not worship other religions is because it's agaisnst the teachings.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
-- Stephen F Roberts, confirmed by Stephen F Roberts in a letter to Cliff Walker, (January 4, 2008); as a tag line for postings on the newsgroups alt.atheism and talk.atheism and thinks he originated it in late 1994 or early 1995; he has posted the story in "Brief history of The Quote."

[Juan_Bottom]

No, God is the Creator. He is not a pupeteer, though he absolutely has the power.

God chose to give us free will. That is the bottom line. Why? ask youself. Would you rather be a happy animal, guided by instinct or a human capable of thinking, having discussions such as ours and with the ability to choose?

'But if God made you, and already knows everything that you are going to do, how do you have free will? Wouldn't your will have been made by him/her? Thus, no actual free will? And so your punishment/reward totally unjustified?'

Making him/her more of a directer?

I'll repeat this till I gets me some answers.

[jay_a2j]

Even if I was Athiest I would become Christian to be on the safe side.

Are you aware of how that sounds? You don't have to be afraid of Atheism, you know? You already shunned Hindu, and Islam, and Buddism.... Would you join them all to be safe? You already are Atheist.

No. How can I be Athiest if I have a religion. Oh and the fact that why not worship other religions is because it's agaisnst the teachings.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
-- Stephen F Roberts, confirmed by Stephen F Roberts in a letter to Cliff Walker, (January 4, 2008); as a tag line for postings on the newsgroups alt.atheism and talk.atheism and thinks he originated it in late 1994 or early 1995; he has posted the story in "Brief history of The Quote."

The difference being, Christ came and died for my sins. Christ proclaimed that He was the Son of God. Christ did things that these other religions can never claim. Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, the Lamb of God. That is the difference.

[PLAYER57832]

You know, we might have free choice, but that would contradict another Christian belief. God knows and controls all.

So either you don't have free choice, or God isn't omnipotent and omniscient.

Wrong. God CAN control all, but does not except in how he initially set up the world, the factors he created and put together. Once in a while, he does intervene. These are called "miracles", but only occasionally.

[MeDeFe]

You know, we might have free choice, but that would contradict another Christian belief. God knows and controls all.

So either you don't have free choice, or God isn't omnipotent and omniscient.

Wrong. God CAN control all, but does not except in how he initially set up the world, the factors he created and put together. Once in a while, he does intervene. These are called "miracles", but only occasionally.

Still, and we (that's "we on this forum") have been over this several times in the past, god knowing, with no uncertainty whatsoever, what is going to happen in the future, how a person is going to act, is irreconcilable with free will. If god knows there is no choice, god doesn't have to intervene all the time make free will impossible, his omniscience is just the extension of the deterministic universe he set up in the first place, if he set up a non-deterministic universe even he himself cannot know for sure what's going to happen in it.
And if there is no free will and we cannot truly choose how to act and what to think, then a god that punishes us for not acting as he wants is unjust.

[Juan_Bottom]

The difference being, Christ came and died for my sins. Christ proclaimed that He was the Son of God. Christ did things that these other religions can never claim. Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, the Lamb of God. That is the difference.

Specificaly Jay, Why did you denounce each other religion? I kinda see what you are saying about why yours is right. Because you think Jesus, was the Son of God(why again?). But why did you reject each other religion?

Secondly, the Dead Sea Scrolls were awesome. They say that calling yourself "son of God" was a common expression of the day. Because, after all, aren't we?

I would say that the church twisted the words, by eliminating text from the Bible. Of course, the apostals were already trying to paint him as the son of God though.

[PLAYER57832]

No, God is the Creator. He is not a pupeteer, though he absolutely has the power.

God chose to give us free will. That is the bottom line. Why? ask youself. Would you rather be a happy animal, guided by instinct or a human capable of thinking, having discussions such as ours and with the ability to choose?

'But if God made you, and already knows everything that you are going to do, how do you have free will? Wouldn't your will have been made by him/her? Thus, no actual free will? And so your punishment/reward totally unjustified?'

Making him/her more of a directer?

I'll repeat this till I gets me some answers.

I have answered, but you either don't understand or just refuse to accept the answer.

It is because we REALLY DO have free will.

God made the world, then stepped back and let things happen. Does he know the result? Yes. But, once he made the world, he let us be free. He made the parts that made us. I don't believe he individually manipulates us as you invision. He CAN, but generally does not.

Imagine this. A child's baseball game. Both teams want to win, probably even pray. But can God let both teams win? (ties are generally avoided -- they play until there is a winner)
The kids who prayed are probably tempted to see it that way. If they win, they thank God. If they lose, they blame him or ask why?

BUT, I don't think its that "easy". God does see all, know all, but he steps back and lets us be. He knew, when he set up this world that that baseball game would happen. He set up enough components that humanity would become what we are, including, eventually that game. BUT, he only intervenes directly on occasion.

Prayer helps, but prayer is not like asking a Genie in a bottle for a wish. (thank heavans!) God gives us all what we really need, not just what we want.

[jay_a2j]

The difference being, Christ came and died for my sins. Christ proclaimed that He was the Son of God. Christ did things that these other religions can never claim. Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, the Lamb of God. That is the difference.

Specificaly Jay, Why did you denounce each other religion? I kinda see what you are saying about why yours is right. Because you think Jesus, was the Son of God(why again?). But why did you reject each other religion?

Secondly, the Dead Sea Scrolls were awesome. They say that calling yourself "son of God" was a common expression of the day. Because, after all, aren't we?

I would say that the church twisted the words, by eliminating text from the Bible. Of course, the apostals were already trying to paint him as the son of God though.

Because Jesus is "The way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through Him." I believe what Jesus claimed. That He is the Son of God. That he died and rose again. Why did He die? To pay for the sins of the world. Did Buddha claim this? Mohammad? Did they die for our sins? Were they resurrected? Only Jesus, who was without sin, could be the Lamb slaughtered to pay for the sins of the world.


We are either the Children of God or children of Satan. Jesus said, "He who is not for me is against me." (and I hate that Bush used this verse to address our loyalty on the "war on terror") "He who does not gather, scatters". You are not "born" into the family of God.

[MrBenn]

Q: Is God really just?
A: Yes.

In one sense, all theories of distributive justice claim that everyone should get what he or she deserves

If we take religious dogma to its extreme, then everybody is guilty of some petty crime (sin), and that the penalty for sin is death (sic. eternal seperation from God).
Abrahamic religion are not 'karma' based - ie. Doing good does not/cannot outweigh doing bad. Thus, Religious Law condemns us all, as every 'sin' is equal in its eyes.

Q: Is God merciful?
A: Yes.

Mercy is a term used to describe the leniency or compassion shown by one person to another... In a legal sense, a defendant having been found guilty of a capital crime may ask for clemency from being executed. To be "mercy", the behavior cannot be compelled by outside forces.

Issues pertaining to Grace and Mercy need to be discussed seperately from and after those pertaining to legalism and judgement.

Q: Is mercy just?
A: No

Mercy has triumphed over judgement

[kagetora]

No, God is the Creator. He is not a pupeteer, though he absolutely has the power.

God chose to give us free will. That is the bottom line. Why? ask youself. Would you rather be a happy animal, guided by instinct or a human capable of thinking, having discussions such as ours and with the ability to choose?

'But if God made you, and already knows everything that you are going to do, how do you have free will? Wouldn't your will have been made by him/her? Thus, no actual free will? And so your punishment/reward totally unjustified?'

Making him/her more of a directer?

I'll repeat this till I gets me some answers.

I have answered, but you either don't understand or just refuse to accept the answer.

It is because we REALLY DO have free will.

God made the world, then stepped back and let things happen. Does he know the result? Yes. But, once he made the world, he let us be free. He made the parts that made us. I don't believe he individually manipulates us as you invision. He CAN, but generally does not.

Imagine this. A child's baseball game. Both teams want to win, probably even pray. But can God let both teams win? (ties are generally avoided -- they play until there is a winner)
The kids who prayed are probably tempted to see it that way. If they win, they thank God. If they lose, they blame him or ask why?

BUT, I don't think its that "easy". God does see all, know all, but he steps back and lets us be. He knew, when he set up this world that that baseball game would happen. He set up enough components that humanity would become what we are, including, eventually that game. BUT, he only intervenes directly on occasion.

Prayer helps, but prayer is not like asking a Genie in a bottle for a wish. (thank heavans!) God gives us all what we really need, not just what we want.

He doesn't step back and let us be! Let's go back to the kid falling in the water movie thing ok?

God is the director. You are the actor that plays the kid.
Now, from what I learned, God has this huge endall plan right? Let's say this plan is the script.
Now, according to the plan/script, you are supposed to fall in the water. Since God is the director, he's gonna follow the script, and you will fall in the water. No choice.

[jay_a2j]

No, God is the Creator. He is not a pupeteer, though he absolutely has the power.

God chose to give us free will. That is the bottom line. Why? ask youself. Would you rather be a happy animal, guided by instinct or a human capable of thinking, having discussions such as ours and with the ability to choose?

'But if God made you, and already knows everything that you are going to do, how do you have free will? Wouldn't your will have been made by him/her? Thus, no actual free will? And so your punishment/reward totally unjustified?'

Making him/her more of a directer?

I'll repeat this till I gets me some answers.

I have answered, but you either don't understand or just refuse to accept the answer.

It is because we REALLY DO have free will.

God made the world, then stepped back and let things happen. Does he know the result? Yes. But, once he made the world, he let us be free. He made the parts that made us. I don't believe he individually manipulates us as you invision. He CAN, but generally does not.

Imagine this. A child's baseball game. Both teams want to win, probably even pray. But can God let both teams win? (ties are generally avoided -- they play until there is a winner)
The kids who prayed are probably tempted to see it that way. If they win, they thank God. If they lose, they blame him or ask why?

BUT, I don't think its that "easy". God does see all, know all, but he steps back and lets us be. He knew, when he set up this world that that baseball game would happen. He set up enough components that humanity would become what we are, including, eventually that game. BUT, he only intervenes directly on occasion.

Prayer helps, but prayer is not like asking a Genie in a bottle for a wish. (thank heavans!) God gives us all what we really need, not just what we want.

He doesn't step back and let us be! Let's go back to the kid falling in the water movie thing ok?

God is the director. You are the actor that plays the kid.
Now, from what I learned, God has this huge endall plan right? Let's say this plan is the script.
Now, according to the plan/script, you are supposed to fall in the water. Since God is the director, he's gonna follow the script, and you will fall in the water. No choice.

If everyone was following God's plan, this world wouldn't be in the shape it is now.

[PLAYER57832]

No, God is the Creator. He is not a pupeteer, though he absolutely has the power.

God chose to give us free will. That is the bottom line. Why? ask youself. Would you rather be a happy animal, guided by instinct or a human capable of thinking, having discussions such as ours and with the ability to choose?

'But if God made you, and already knows everything that you are going to do, how do you have free will? Wouldn't your will have been made by him/her? Thus, no actual free will? And so your punishment/reward totally unjustified?'

Making him/her more of a directer?

I'll repeat this till I gets me some answers.

I have answered, but you either don't understand or just refuse to accept the answer.

It is because we REALLY DO have free will.

God made the world, then stepped back and let things happen. Does he know the result? Yes. But, once he made the world, he let us be free. He made the parts that made us. I don't believe he individually manipulates us as you invision. He CAN, but generally does not.

Imagine this. A child's baseball game. Both teams want to win, probably even pray. But can God let both teams win? (ties are generally avoided -- they play until there is a winner)
The kids who prayed are probably tempted to see it that way. If they win, they thank God. If they lose, they blame him or ask why?

BUT, I don't think its that "easy". God does see all, know all, but he steps back and lets us be. He knew, when he set up this world that that baseball game would happen. He set up enough components that humanity would become what we are, including, eventually that game. BUT, he only intervenes directly on occasion.

Prayer helps, but prayer is not like asking a Genie in a bottle for a wish. (thank heavans!) God gives us all what we really need, not just what we want.

He doesn't step back and let us be! Let's go back to the kid falling in the water movie thing ok?

God is the director. You are the actor that plays the kid.
Now, from what I learned, God has this huge endall plan right? Let's say this plan is the script.
Now, according to the plan/script, you are supposed to fall in the water. Since God is the director, he's gonna follow the script, and you will fall in the water. No choice.

You can see things that way, but it is not how I see things or what my church teaches.

As for the anologies ... they are only that.. close approximations to make it easier to explain, understand. They are our attempt to put Godly things into human perceptions.
No one Christian church claims that their idea of how God can both control the world and give us free will is absolutely sure. Many don't even try to answer, they simply say "it is".

Several things ARE fundamental to Christianity. God made the world. He gave us true and real free will (whether you understand how or not is irrelevant). AND he sees and knows all. Most Christians believe he ultimately has a plan, but that plan might be nothing we even can imagine.

I will make one last try, though it seems clear that we just will see things differently.

How do you explain time? I mean REALLY explain it. How does it happen? What came before, what will come after? How can there be and "after" and "before" time? I am pretty good at esoteric concepts, but that is one that I just can't really get my mind around.

God is a part of that. God is beyond time, beyond all constraints that we envision or put upon ourselves ... and upon our perception of God. So, we might not be able to readily explain, see or truly understand how it is that God can know all and yet give us free will. BUT we do and he does.

Understanding how it a happens is not necessary for it to be true.

[PLAYER57832]

If everyone was following God's plan, this world wouldn't be in the shape it is now.

Now you are stepping outside the Bible. We either all are part of God's plan or not. In that, I agree with k., but are we individually making the choices God might wish/desire
we all make? No. And God let's us make those mistakes, though he has given us a lot of guidance to try and help us make correct choices. Yet, God set things in motion so that, in the end, it will be the best possible outcome for all of humanity.

[jay_a2j]

If everyone was following God's plan, this world wouldn't be in the shape it is now.

Now you are stepping outside the Bible. We either all are part of God's plan or not. In that, I agree with k., but are we individually making the choices God might wish/desire
we all make? No. And God let's us make those mistakes, though he has given us a lot of guidance to try and help us make correct choices. Yet, God set things in motion so that, in the end, it will be the best possible outcome for all of humanity.

If everyone was doing what God willed, than how can there be sin? If God wills it, it can not be sin. Children starving in Africa, Gods will? I don't think so. Can he use our free will (sometimes sin) for a better good? Yes, as He did with the Holocaust. The Holocaust was man's sin, but from that atrocity, God's plan came to be. Fulfilled prophesy. Israel was formed following WWII, in 1948 and the Jews returned home in large numbers. "Those who see the Jews return to their homeland, will be the generation that sees all these things take place." You seem to be saying that our sin is in Gods plan, which is so not the case.

[Ntetos]

It was in God's plan that 6 million Jews died? It was in God's plan that millions of Palestinians lost their homes or their lives? It was in God's plan the situation in the Middle East now? That's a very good God. He loves humans so much. And most of those that saw Jews returning in Israel are dead now so your prophecy has not been fulfilled.

[jay_a2j]

It was in God's plan that 6 million Jews died? It was in God's plan that millions of Palestinians lost their homes or their lives? It was in God's plan the situation in the Middle East now? That's a very good God. He loves humans so much. And most of those that saw Jews returning in Israel are dead now so your prophecy has not been fulfilled.

No, and that is where I adamantly disagree with Player. But God took what came about from man's sin, and brought good out of it. To think that Hitler was "in God's plan" is crazy. But God used what Hitler did to achieve a greater good.

[FabledIntegral]

Q: Is God really just?
A: Yes.

In one sense, all theories of distributive justice claim that everyone should get what he or she deserves

Doesn't answer the initial post - justice is a very subjective word as you pointed out in your post, yet one can use the community in a debate to discuss what's fair. Otherwise you could say anything is just... that since God is our creator it would be just for him to decide on whim to change his mind and throw all of his followers into hell and all of his dissenters to live among him. And the debate is over. Hopefully we can have some rationale here.

If we take religious dogma to its extreme, then everybody is guilty of some petty crime (sin), and that the penalty for sin is death (sic. eternal seperation from God).
Abrahamic religion are not 'karma' based - ie. Doing good does not/cannot outweigh doing bad. Thus, Religious Law condemns us all, as every 'sin' is equal in its eyes.

You're looking once again around what the original post is discussing. Everybody is guilty of some petty sin according to God's standards. Yet with his standards, he created us with the natural tendency to sin. We did not choose to want to sin by ANY means; you can't trace it back to Adam and Eve for I had nothing to do in THEIR choice. If God wants to blame ME for something HIS creation did, by no means will I bow down and worship such an evil tyrant. As God shows virtually no love whatsoever in the Old Testament... if anything it's a testament to his hatred and cruelty.

Humanity is evil... I'm going to flood the earth and wipe everyone out. Ok, done with that... OH SHIT it was a bad idea... never again! Soddom and Gomorroh... we have sinful people... going to kill them all even though I created them with fault and sin... well I gave them the choice to worship me but I guess that because they choose to do what they wanted EVEN THOUGH I created them with personalities to do what they wanted...

Q: Is God merciful?
A: Yes.

Mercy is a term used to describe the leniency or compassion shown by one person to another... In a legal sense, a defendant having been found guilty of a capital crime may ask for clemency from being executed. To be "mercy", the behavior cannot be compelled by outside forces.

Issues pertaining to Grace and Mercy need to be discussed seperately from and after those pertaining to legalism and judgement.

Q: Is mercy just?
A: No

Mercy has triumphed over judgement

God is hardly merciful - he is the opposite of showing compassion - he's the one that created the earth and this hellhole in the first place. He decided to create us KNOWING all to well beforehand that atrocities such as the Halocaust would occur, simply for his OWN selfish desires to worshipped by his own creations.

Let me ask you this - could we not have still had freewill if God did not create us with the natural tendency to feel lust? I feel no natural tendency towards homosexuality yet he outlawed it. Could he not have created us without the natural tendencies to do so many sinful things? As I pointed out, he DID create us without some of the tendencies (such as homosexuality not being an issue with me if I was Christian...). Why create us with them in the first place. Could we still not decide on whether to worship him or not? What factors exist that possibly make it so he thought it would be a good idea to make us with lust. I mean, he didn't create us with a tendency to want to bite off my own arm, but he did create a large portion of man with the tendency to steal. Etc. etc.

[william18]

It was in God's plan that 6 million Jews died? It was in God's plan that millions of Palestinians lost their homes or their lives? It was in God's plan the situation in the Middle East now? That's a very good God. He loves humans so much. And most of those that saw Jews returning in Israel are dead now so your prophecy has not been fulfilled.

He did not chose this, it was Hitlars mistake. But the Jews were returning to Isreal, indicating the begining of the prophecy. Isn't it odd that 2012 seems very likely, in coincidence that the prophecy could be true. I don't want to hijack this thread with 2012 so i'll stay on topic. The fact is you can't get mad at good for someothing that might seem bad now, but will save your life in the future. Now unless someone here is a furtune teller then we know nothing of what good is preparing us for.

[FabledIntegral]

It was in God's plan that 6 million Jews died? It was in God's plan that millions of Palestinians lost their homes or their lives? It was in God's plan the situation in the Middle East now? That's a very good God. He loves humans so much. And most of those that saw Jews returning in Israel are dead now so your prophecy has not been fulfilled.

He did not chose this, it was Hitlars mistake. But the Jews were returning to Isreal, indicating the begining of the prophecy. Isn't it odd that 2012 seems very likely, in coincidence that the prophecy could be true. I don't want to hijack this thread with 2012 so i'll stay on topic. The fact is you can't get mad at good for someothing that might seem bad now, but will save your life in the future. Now unless someone here is a furtune teller then we know nothing of what good is preparing us for.

He chose when creating mankind in the first place for this to happen. He created man with fault. He KNEW Hitler would make those decisions because of the fault God created him with. And he created mankind anyways. Simply so he could have others worship him. Selfish anyone?

[Juan_Bottom]

Because Jesus is "The way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through Him." I believe what Jesus claimed. That He is the Son of God. That he died and rose again.

Wait a tick Jay, that doesn't really answer my question, I mean what if I said that?

Plus, I don't remember who said it here, but Jesus kinda saw it coming. And his ressurection too. So really he was only inconvienenced.

Why did He die?

He was annoying to the Romans.

To pay for the sins of the world. Did Buddha claim this? Mohammad? Did they die for our sins?

No,....But just to make sure that I'm not miscommunicating, you reject all these other religions because none of these people died for your sins? It just doesn't really answer my question satisfactorily. It would however if you had more proof that what the Bible says is true(that what these other religions say). But you haven't said anything about it yet. Ya know what I mean?

Only Jesus, who was without sin, could be the Lamb slaughtered to pay for the sins of the world.

I dunno dude. To be without Christian/Jew sin is hard. And all other records of Jesus are locked away by the Vatican.........

We are either the Children of God or children of Satan. Jesus said, "He who is not for me is against me." (and I hate that Bush used this verse to address our loyalty on the "war on terror") "He who does not gather, scatters". You are not "born" into the family of God.

Agreed! I'm pretty sure Bush is a satanist,because of Bohemien Grove, and his manipulation of Christianity for political gains. Even if he doesn't think that he is, he has more in common with the Church of Satan, than any Christian Church.<----my words, not Jay's.

If everyone was following God's plan, this world wouldn't be in the shape it is now.

unless it's part of His/Her plan to bring about the Judgement day, right?

You can see things that way, but it is not how I see things or what my church teaches.

I see it that way too, but you already knew that...

How do you explain time? I mean REALLY explain it. How does it happen? What came before, what will come after? How can there be and "after" and "before" time? I am pretty good at esoteric concepts, but that is one that I just can't really get my mind around.

I have a hard 'time'(hehee) with this too. You're not the only one. It kills my brain sometimes. I have any easy way to dismiss God from the equation though, at least for myself. "How can a God come from nothing? Time, at least, may one day be understandable to a human. Christian God however, will forever be intangible.<--This keeps me at ease.

God is a part of that. God is beyond time, beyond all constraints that we envision or put upon ourselves ... and upon our perception of God. So, we might not be able to readily explain, see or truly understand how it is that God can know all and yet give us free will. BUT we do and he does.

These are just more of what I keep calling easy answers. To dismiss logic!

God's plan came to be. Fulfilled prophesy. Israel was formed following WWII, in 1948 and the Jews returned home in large numbers. "Those who see the Jews return to their homeland, will be the generation that sees all these things take place." You seem to be saying that our sin is in Gods plan, which is so not the case.

You've got us here, I think. I don't believe anyone can refute that this was a prophecy. Not that it was a real prophecy, just that it was "envisioned."

To think that Hitler was "in God's plan" is crazy. But God used what Hitler did to achieve a greater good.

Ahhh! But God knew that one day Hitler would do that. How could God not be using Hitler, yet be using the rest of the world to create Israel?

someothing that might seem bad now, but will save your life in the future.

Seriously WILLIAM18, to me at least, you sound very afraid of not going to heaven. It's almost like you are so scared of a hell that you would believe anything.
I gots me a funny feeling, just like, as in, mebbe you have yourself a few questions???? Iffen you do, I wouldn't worry, they're just questions.

[joecoolfrog]

It was in God's plan that 6 million Jews died? It was in God's plan that millions of Palestinians lost their homes or their lives? It was in God's plan the situation in the Middle East now? That's a very good God. He loves humans so much. And most of those that saw Jews returning in Israel are dead now so your prophecy has not been fulfilled.

No, and that is where I adamantly disagree with Player. But God took what came about from man's sin, and brought good out of it. To think that Hitler was "in God's plan" is crazy. But God used what Hitler did to achieve a greater good.

Hitler = Bad so nothing to do with God...all a bit twee isnt it !

[kagetora]

No, God is the Creator. He is not a pupeteer, though he absolutely has the power.

God chose to give us free will. That is the bottom line. Why? ask youself. Would you rather be a happy animal, guided by instinct or a human capable of thinking, having discussions such as ours and with the ability to choose?

'But if God made you, and already knows everything that you are going to do, how do you have free will? Wouldn't your will have been made by him/her? Thus, no actual free will? And so your punishment/reward totally unjustified?'

Making him/her more of a directer?

I'll repeat this till I gets me some answers.

I have answered, but you either don't understand or just refuse to accept the answer.

It is because we REALLY DO have free will.

God made the world, then stepped back and let things happen. Does he know the result? Yes. But, once he made the world, he let us be free. He made the parts that made us. I don't believe he individually manipulates us as you invision. He CAN, but generally does not.

Imagine this. A child's baseball game. Both teams want to win, probably even pray. But can God let both teams win? (ties are generally avoided -- they play until there is a winner)
The kids who prayed are probably tempted to see it that way. If they win, they thank God. If they lose, they blame him or ask why?

BUT, I don't think its that "easy". God does see all, know all, but he steps back and lets us be. He knew, when he set up this world that that baseball game would happen. He set up enough components that humanity would become what we are, including, eventually that game. BUT, he only intervenes directly on occasion.

Prayer helps, but prayer is not like asking a Genie in a bottle for a wish. (thank heavans!) God gives us all what we really need, not just what we want.

He doesn't step back and let us be! Let's go back to the kid falling in the water movie thing ok?

God is the director. You are the actor that plays the kid.
Now, from what I learned, God has this huge endall plan right? Let's say this plan is the script.
Now, according to the plan/script, you are supposed to fall in the water. Since God is the director, he's gonna follow the script, and you will fall in the water. No choice.

If everyone was following God's plan, this world wouldn't be in the shape it is now.

According to the Protestant church, we already are following God's plan.

If everyone was following God's plan, this world wouldn't be in the shape it is now.

Now you are stepping outside the Bible. We either all are part of God's plan or not. In that, I agree with k., but are we individually making the choices God might wish/desire
we all make? No. And God let's us make those mistakes, though he has given us a lot of guidance to try and help us make correct choices. Yet, God set things in motion so that, in the end, it will be the best possible outcome for all of humanity.

If everyone was doing what God willed, than how can there be sin? If God wills it, it can not be sin. Children starving in Africa, Gods will? I don't think so. Can he use our free will (sometimes sin) for a better good? Yes, as He did with the Holocaust. The Holocaust was man's sin, but from that atrocity, God's plan came to be. Fulfilled prophesy. Israel was formed following WWII, in 1948 and the Jews returned home in large numbers. "Those who see the Jews return to their homeland, will be the generation that sees all these things take place." You seem to be saying that our sin is in Gods plan, which is so not the case.

Our sin is God's will. He uses that as example.

It was in God's plan that 6 million Jews died? It was in God's plan that millions of Palestinians lost their homes or their lives? It was in God's plan the situation in the Middle East now? That's a very good God. He loves humans so much. And most of those that saw Jews returning in Israel are dead now so your prophecy has not been fulfilled.

No, and that is where I adamantly disagree with Player. But God took what came about from man's sin, and brought good out of it. To think that Hitler was "in God's plan" is crazy. But God used what Hitler did to achieve a greater good.

If Hitler is not in God's plan, then God either didn't expect him to happen, which means he's not omniscient. Or, maybe he wasn't in God's plan, but since God didn't stop it, he either couldn't, or didn't. The second would be because Hitler was part of God's plan.

[PLAYER57832]

Again, knowing and understanding, even predicting does not mean manipulating.

God knows the result. He knew when he made us what would happen, BUT it is still up to each of us individually to either choose or not choose.

In a sense, you can say that God knew everything, made everything intially happen such that this result would occur. BUT, the key is that for us, as far as we are concerned we do have free will.

Again, that is my answer. The church comes up with several possibilities, but since the Bible does not specify, it is one of those things about which we can only really speculate. The Bible says we have free will, the Bible also tells us God is in control. How is not answered. So, whatever idea you wish to put forward is possible. You can call it a "cop out", but there is no other answer. Even saying "there is no God" does not really answer, because how, then did everything come into being? How did stuff emerge from nothing? How could nothing have existed, how could there be a "before". Assigning it to "other dimensions" is similarly a "cop-out" (I don't deny the possibility, just say it is not a true ultimate answer to this question), because those dimensions should have a beginning and end. Or they don't ... and how can that be?

Christianity teaches us that God is in control, but that we have free will. It may not make sense, but that is the belief.

But, the real bottom line is that if you want to get too hung up on these types of questions, then you will end up in circles. Ultimately, it just does not matter for how we live our lives.