Is God really Just?

[PLAYER57832]

The funny thing is that the "lemmings" and atheists have generally the same sense of right and wrong (with some individual exceptions), but we also have faith and hope for the future.

We also share faith and hope for the future? or do you mean that "lemmings" (OK, pejorative term, but since we're running with it...) have it and atheists don't?

Generally, Christians think further in the future than atheists.

What a load of bullshit. That's an absurd statement.

Aside from the fact that I was trying to make a joke (okay .. I failed)

Christians believe there is an "afterlife" and it is real. Most (not all) athiests do not. Christians tend to think toward that afterlife and so we think a bit further into the future than most atheists ... (even the "Revelationists" ... but they may not think earthly futures are that long.)

But most Christians, at least the Protestants (and more Roman Catholics than perhaps the Pope might like) think for themselves/ourselves. The fact that we happen to agree and happen to think the Bible has truth doesn't mean it is a completely unthinking process.

It is partially faith, but not blind faith.

[Iliad]

The funny thing is that the "lemmings" and atheists have generally the same sense of right and wrong (with some individual exceptions), but we also have faith and hope for the future.

We also share faith and hope for the future? or do you mean that "lemmings" (OK, pejorative term, but since we're running with it...) have it and atheists don't?

Generally, Christians think further in the future than atheists.

What a load of bullshit. That's an absurd statement.

Aside from the fact that I was trying to make a joke (okay .. I failed)

Christians believe there is an "afterlife" and it is real. Most (not all) athiests do not. Christians tend to think toward that afterlife and so we think a bit further into the future than most atheists ... (even the "Revelationists" ... but they may not think earthly futures are that long.)

But most Christians, at least the Protestants (and more Roman Catholics than perhaps the Pope might like) think for themselves/ourselves. The fact that we happen to agree and happen to think the Bible has truth doesn't mean it is a completely unthinking process.

It is partially faith, but not blind faith.

It is completely blind faith.

Atheists aer more likely to actually try to enjoy the approximate 75 years we'll get here. Cause you don't get anything else.

[OnlyAmbrose]

In reference to the original post:

Why would God create humans in teh first place? Ruling out any possible "we don't understand his greater plan," scenario, as I don't believe on blind faith, I'm looking for a reason. First of all, I don't think God is anthropomorphic, so to say something as great as God could possibly be "bored" or something of that sort doesn't work.

You're ruling out the Christian God because we don't understand his motivations? Seems a little ridiculous (to me anyways) to even try to understand why an omniscient being which exists outside of space and time does anything.

That being said, if I were to theorize I would say simply that God created humanity for the same reason a mother and father create a child (except when it's by accident! ), and that is out of love.

Secondly, why would he create us with teh tendency to sin? Why did he make certain things sinful in teh first place? Why would the almighty God create humans with the tendency to want to have sex, then him be cruel to tell us not to do it. He would be playing the temptor - something who's job should be reserved for Satan, not us. And considering that God created every aspect of us, as he created the universe and humanity, he must have created human personality, as everything is an offshoot of what God has done.

God is love (Deus caritas est), is a major catchphrase of the Bible. The purpose of man, being God's creation, is to love. However, love, by definition, can only exist if there is free will. That's why rape isn't love; there's no free will involved on the part of the victim. In order for God's creation to be able to fulfill its purpose, it must have free will.

Why is the purpose of man love? Because that is God's nature. Why is that God's nature? I don't know. It just is. Why is the speed of light 3 x 10^8 m/s? I don't know. It just is.

Why would he be so cruel as to create billions of people with the before-hand-knowledge that he would be condemning a large portion of them to hell? Why would he create humans to think in other Gods existed? Obviously the Egyptians wouldn't have believed in their Gods if they didn't believe them to be truthful. Are they condemned simply because they got unlucky and weren't born in the right geographic location of those that believed in the "true" God?

You're presuming that God set humanity up. God didn't make humans think other Gods existed. Humans created idols.

It is written in the Bible that the word of God is written into the hearts of all men. Only God knows how the nonbeliever's heart and as such only God may judge the nonbeliever. In short, I don't know who is condemned and who isn't.

How many people are condemned because of luck? To me, the only way God could be real would be if EVERY single person, who was born since the beginning of time to everyone in the future, would have to have the EXACT same chance of getting into heaven. Otherwise, some would have an unfair chance, etc. which is against a perfect system, which god would *have* to have, correct?

No one is condemned because of luck, condemnation must come as a result of free choice according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

All I see is certain people in teh Bible being favored, which it directly says. That's conclusive evidence enough for me that God doesn't exist. Overall, I view God as being a very cruel, entity from reading the Bible. Thus, to me, he can't possibly exist.

First of all, I fail to see your logical leap. If i were to concede to you that God is unjust, how does that prove that he does not exist?

Secondly, I'm not sure about the soundness of your theology. The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the great equalizer. The Bible clearly says that NO ONE is favored. Check up on your new testament

Thirdly, all things considered, think of this point: even if (hypothetically) God does favor certain people... who are you to say that that is unjust? As a theist one bases perfection off of God, because there is no better standard than God. You're judging God by the standards of man. Once again that's a pure hypothetical, because I think that you'll find that the Bible has a very different message than you think.

[CrazyAnglican]

Atheists aer more likely to actually try to enjoy the approximate 75 years we'll get here. Cause you don't get anything else.

While it seems like a common sense statement, I'd counter that some people will live their lives to the fullest and others won't. I doubt atheism has any demonstrable bearing on that.

There is even some psychiatric evidence to the contrary.

Religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation.

The article is here http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/con ... 61/12/2303

but I got the basic info here http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html

Think of it like this, even if everyone knows the teacher is strict about deadlines; don't lots of students (especially in college) still procrastinate?

[Ntetos]

If someone commits suicide then the church refuses to bury them or something. That's why families who are religious tend to present the suicide as accident. I know cases like this.

[FabledIntegral]

Most of my response will obviously be in the context if a God existed, as I'm not arguing the existence of God, I'm arguing that ASSUMING he is real, how can he be just (aka saying that he's not).

In reference to the original post:

Why would God create humans in teh first place? Ruling out any possible "we don't understand his greater plan," scenario, as I don't believe on blind faith, I'm looking for a reason. First of all, I don't think God is anthropomorphic, so to say something as great as God could possibly be "bored" or something of that sort doesn't work.

You're ruling out the Christian God because we don't understand his motivations? Seems a little ridiculous (to me anyways) to even try to understand why an omniscient being which exists outside of space and time does anything.

You bet I'm ruling that out. Could I not easily just tell you that the Hindu Gods are real? Saying that you should simply believe you are told is blind faith - nothing more. Some things are arguably about blind faith, however going on something with "I merely don't understand what is the true purpose," is definitely fitting to that category.

Isn't that why it's more likely for a child to become Christian if his parents are Christian? It's more likely for an child to become Islamic if his parents are? In ancient Greek times - I don't think I need to explain why so many people believed in Zeus. To believe without understanding why isn't something I would expect God to expect out of us. But according to your logic, how should I even expect anything from God save what he's told us directly.

Over 66% of children in America will grow up to support the same political party of their parent.

That being said, if I were to theorize I would say simply that God created humanity for the same reason a mother and father create a child (except when it's by accident! ), and that is out of love.

Secondly, why would he create us with teh tendency to sin? Why did he make certain things sinful in teh first place? Why would the almighty God create humans with the tendency to want to have sex, then him be cruel to tell us not to do it. He would be playing the temptor - something who's job should be reserved for Satan, not us. And considering that God created every aspect of us, as he created the universe and humanity, he must have created human personality, as everything is an offshoot of what God has done.

God is love (Deus caritas est), is a major catchphrase of the Bible. The purpose of man, being God's creation, is to love. However, love, by definition, can only exist if there is free will. That's why rape isn't love; there's no free will involved on the part of the victim. In order for God's creation to be able to fulfill its purpose, it must have free will.
[/quote]

He created out of love, but with the prior knowledge that many would be condemned. My entire point is - humanity is a creation of God. Said in the Old Testament. I really detest the free will argument but I'll attempt to address it.

You speak of free will, but fail to acknowledge the part that God still morphed what human nature is. God created man with sexual urges - but speaks and tells us to resist them. Why? They are amoral. Why are they amoral? Because... God said so.

God also told us not to murder. That's cool, I have no desire to murder at all. No problem. I'm glad he didn't put any urge in my heart to murder. But he did put sexual urges into us, correct? Why? He has these standards he wants to be fulfilled, yet then creates us to naturally not want to follow a lot of his standards. It's different than free will and what you're arguing.

The point I'm trying to make - God has decided to what is moral and amoral. He has decided that homosexuality is evil, yet I'm sure that none of the ancient Greeks thought nothing of the subject because their gods never forbade it.

Why would God make his creations with tendencies to do what he doesn't want? That's not freewill - that's playing tempter. And then he has the audacity to claim because we gave into the temptations that he set up for us that we will be separated from him for eternity. That's not a very forgiving God, especially because I would kneel down right now and worship him if I truly thought he existed. Is it my fault that I received an education about evolution whilst many other children are going to all Christian schools and are taught biased methods (not saying that the education I got concerning evolution wasn't biased either - neither side ever seems to give an accurate portrayal) about the subject so they think it's nothing more than some crackpot thinking we somehow morphed from monkeys?

God created us - he's responsible for us. If we mess up, it's due to nothing more than either his mistake or his failure to guide us. After all, we ARE his creation. What causes some people to follow him and some others to not? It depends on how HE created us. To think it's something as simple as some are more willing to open their hearts than others would be ignorant. Millions are believing in false idols yet truly feel they are believing in the real deal, correct? So the ones that got the right education got damn lucky? I'm condemned to eternal damnation/separation with God simply because of circumstance? I know I can "accept God" at any point - but that's NOT the point. The point is, why would I if I'm giving all these points. He created us with so many flaws, he knew prior that we would have all these flaws. The simple fact he's denying all those that want to love him... such as I, who would embrace his love with open arms... assuming I had evidence. Otherwise what's to stop me from believing in Zeus?

Why would he be so cruel as to create billions of people with the before-hand-knowledge that he would be condemning a large portion of them to hell? Why would he create humans to think in other Gods existed? Obviously the Egyptians wouldn't have believed in their Gods if they didn't believe them to be truthful. Are they condemned simply because they got unlucky and weren't born in the right geographic location of those that believed in the "true" God?

You're presuming that God set humanity up. God didn't make humans think other Gods existed. Humans created idols.

It is written in the Bible that the word of God is written into the hearts of all men. Only God knows how the nonbeliever's heart and as such only God may judge the nonbeliever. In short, I don't know who is condemned and who isn't.

[/quote]

Tell me this - why would someone worship an idol if they had the real deal? As much as it's said in the Bible, it doesn't make sense. No one would ever drop the real thing for some fake stuff. What about the Native American tribes that were isolated from the Mid-East? They developed tons of various explanations for why things were. They worshiped the "Rain Gods" because, with no other explanation at the time, they came to the conclusion that some God was giving them rain. Can you blame them? What about their children? You going to blame a person based on what his/her parents did? Unjust there. If I recall there was a lot of that in the Bible, future generations would suffer from the act of an original sinner. Hardly just if you ask me.

How many people are condemned because of luck? To me, the only way God could be real would be if EVERY single person, who was born since the beginning of time to everyone in the future, would have to have the EXACT same chance of getting into heaven. Otherwise, some would have an unfair chance, etc. which is against a perfect system, which god would *have* to have, correct?

No one is condemned because of luck, condemnation must come as a result of free choice according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
[/quote]

And I don't care what those doctrines say. The Catholic Church said that you can buy your way out of purgatory. I don't see any evidence for that in the Bible either. Don't use other man's interpretations of what religion means to them for your answers. Take it out of the Bible directly. Other people can twist words, the Bible isn't changing (hehe... too much anymore at least!).

All I see is certain people in teh Bible being favored, which it directly says. That's conclusive evidence enough for me that God doesn't exist. Overall, I view God as being a very cruel, entity from reading the Bible. Thus, to me, he can't possibly exist.

First of all, I fail to see your logical leap. If i were to concede to you that God is unjust, how does that prove that he does not exist?
[/quote]

It doesn't prove A God does not exist - it proves the Christian God does not exist. And I think I made it clear that's the only God I'm referencing to.

Secondly, I'm not sure about the soundness of your theology. The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the great equalizer. The Bible clearly says that NO ONE is favored. Check up on your new testament

The Bible does not say NO ONE is favored. I recall numerous accounts in the Old Testament where people are directly favored. You want me to believe in one half but not the other? How can I believe in the New Testament without believing in the Old. Are you saying everyone before the New Testament got screwed?

My personal belief is that if someone ever had a better chance of getting into heaven than another, than a truly just God can't exist. Simple fact that if God were truly just, he would not someone get into heaven simply because of lucky circumstance, they would have an equal chance, meaning everyone would have to have the exact same life. So once again - what happens to those Egyptians that God screwed over? Do you think they all realized that they were openly defying the "true God." You think everyone was really that ignorant? Well I'll tell you what - I'm not. I would easily follow God if the events being portrayed in the Bible were given to me. Show me a talking burning bush, give me a staff that God personally tells me I need to have faith in, and I'll sacrifice every single thing I've ever had to do his will.

Yet the simple fact that we NOW can believe in Jesus, but the people then couldn't... doesn't sound fair me to me. None of it does.

Thirdly, all things considered, think of this point: even if (hypothetically) God does favor certain people... who are you to say that that is unjust? As a theist one bases perfection off of God, because there is no better standard than God. You're judging God by the standards of man. Once again that's a pure hypothetical, because I think that you'll find that the Bible has a very different message than you think.

[/quote]

Who am I to say that it's unjust to, simply by favoritism, give some a chance at eternal salvation and others no chance and thus eternal damnation? I think you're arguing nothing more than semantics of the word justice. That and you're going back to the blind faith argument of "who are we to understand the bigger picture." The fact is, mankind has developed their own definition of justice. God has used OUR definition of justice. So maybe, once again if you want to be technical, I should rephrase my question, "Is God really just, according to what mankind considers justice to be defined as in the dictionary?"



By no means think I'm criticizing you or your beliefs - I'm merely trying to display my point of view and have a debate. You're the only one I've responded to as it seems you're the only one that really seems to address the point I'm making, nearly everything else is offtopic.

[Backglass]

Religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation.

The article is here http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/con ... 61/12/2303

but I got the basic info here http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html

Atheism is not for the weak minded or wishy-washy...that's for sure. I do not doubt that these religious beliefs give some people comfort during troubled times but that doesn't make the fables real. Some people desperately need that security blanket and would die without it.

Think of it like this, even if everyone knows the teacher is strict about deadlines; don't lots of students (especially in college) still procrastinate?

Think of it like this. The students are studying like mad their entire lives, only to find that in the end there is no final exam...and no teacher.

[OnlyAmbrose]

You bet I'm ruling that out. Could I not easily just tell you that the Hindu Gods are real? Saying that you should simply believe you are told is blind faith - nothing more. Some things are arguably about blind faith, however going on something with "I merely don't understand what is the true purpose," is definitely fitting to that category.

I don't have blind faith, where do you get blind faith from what I said? What I said was that just we don't understand God's motivations does not mean he doesn't exist.

Isn't that why it's more likely for a child to become Christian if his parents are Christian? It's more likely for an child to become Islamic if his parents are? In ancient Greek times - I don't think I need to explain why so many people believed in Zeus. To believe without understanding why isn't something I would expect God to expect out of us. But according to your logic, how should I even expect anything from God save what he's told us directly.

Over 66% of children in America will grow up to support the same political party of their parent.

Fascinating as this may be, I fail to see how it proves that the Christian God is not real.

He created out of love, but with the prior knowledge that many would be condemned. My entire point is - humanity is a creation of God. Said in the Old Testament. I really detest the free will argument but I'll attempt to address it.

You speak of free will, but fail to acknowledge the part that God still morphed what human nature is. God created man with sexual urges - but speaks and tells us to resist them. Why? They are amoral. Why are they amoral? Because... God said so.

Where in the Bible does it say that God created man with a compulsion to sin? You're writing it in, it doesn't say that at all. Adam and Eve had sex all the time and it wasn't sinful, sex drive isn't amoral.

And "God said so" seems like a pretty good reason to me. Can you think of a better one?

The point I'm trying to make - God has decided to what is moral and amoral. He has decided that homosexuality is evil, yet I'm sure that none of the ancient Greeks thought nothing of the subject beca

I wouldn't say that he "decided," I'd say that since God's nature is good, anything not of God's nature is evil. Good and evil weren't decided upon, they were simply evident truths. Much like looking at the fundamental laws of physics. Masses just happen to attract each other.

And I don't care what those doctrines say. The Catholic Church said that you can buy your way out of purgatory.

Really?

I don't see any evidence for that in the Bible either.

Where in the Bible does it say that the Bible is the only authority we should follow?

Don't use other man's interpretations of what religion means to them for your answers. Take it out of the Bible directly.

Why do YOU get to decide what is authoritative and what isn't?

It doesn't prove A God does not exist - it proves the Christian God does not exist. And I think I made it clear that's the only God I'm referencing to.

So once again, how does that prove that the Christian God doesn't exist? Even if it were proven that the Christian God is cruel according to YOUR definition of the word (which I don't concede), how does that prove that he doesn't exist?

The Bible does not say NO ONE is favored. I recall numerous accounts in the Old Testament where people are directly favored. You want me to believe in one half but not the other? How can I believe in the New Testament without believing in the Old. Are you saying everyone before the New Testament got screwed?

Christ opened the gates of heaven. No one could get into heaven before Christ. This is Christian theology taken from the Bible. Christ is the great equalizer; suddenly, both Jew and Gentile are saved. The Old Testament is a historical account and historically God favored certain nations, but out of his infinite love he offered all men of all time the opportunity for salvation by Jesus Christ.


Ok now I have to go to work, but seriously dude, it seems to me that you are deliberately misunderstanding the Bible and making assertions with little backing.

[MeDeFe]

And I don't care what those doctrines say. The Catholic Church said that you can buy your way out of purgatory.

Really?

In the words of a very wise owl: YARLY!

That's what indulgences amounted to when Martin Luther came around and kicked off the reformation.

[The1exile]

While it seems like a common sense statement, I'd counter that some people will live their lives to the fullest and others won't. I doubt atheism has any demonstrable bearing on that.

you're probably right, Iliad is not the best example of well-reasoned Atheist crap-throwing on this forum

[Snorri1234]

Atheists aer more likely to actually try to enjoy the approximate 75 years we'll get here. Cause you don't get anything else.

While it seems like a common sense statement, I'd counter that some people will live their lives to the fullest and others won't. I doubt atheism has any demonstrable bearing on that.

Indeed. I don't need to God to be a lazy bum.

[CrazyAnglican]

Atheism is not for the weak minded or wishy-washy...that's for sure. I do not doubt that these religious beliefs give some people comfort during troubled times but that doesn't make the fables real. Some people desperately need that security blanket and would die without it.

I think wishy-washy, weak minded, and desperate probably apply to atheists about as often as anyone else. One of Christianity's strengths is the solid teaching that we're all basically equal in our imperfections, and treating them kindly is a good thing.

Think of it like this. The students are studying like mad their entire lives, only to find that in the end there is no final exam...and no teacher.

Won't know until the test comes though, being prepared doesn't hurt.

[Backglass]

being prepared doesn't hurt.

Perhaps not to you, but I would rather not waste my entire life studying for a non-existent test in the hopes I get admitted to a spiritual Disney-Land.

[FabledIntegral]

You bet I'm ruling that out. Could I not easily just tell you that the Hindu Gods are real? Saying that you should simply believe you are told is blind faith - nothing more. Some things are arguably about blind faith, however going on something with "I merely don't understand what is the true purpose," is definitely fitting to that category.

I don't have blind faith, where do you get blind faith from what I said? What I said was that just we don't understand God's motivations does not mean he doesn't exist.

Where do I get blind faith from? I said you get blind faith if you believe in something without understanding the reason why. You said it yourself - you can't possibly comprehend God's true motivations, nor can anyone else, but we should still believe in him anyways, because he has some great plan. That is blind faith.

Isn't that why it's more likely for a child to become Christian if his parents are Christian? It's more likely for an child to become Islamic if his parents are? In ancient Greek times - I don't think I need to explain why so many people believed in Zeus. To believe without understanding why isn't something I would expect God to expect out of us. But according to your logic, how should I even expect anything from God save what he's told us directly.

Over 66% of children in America will grow up to support the same political party of their parent.

Fascinating as this may be, I fail to see how it proves that the Christian God is not real.

*sigh* and you call me wanting to twist the words? You don't really seem to see anything. It would not prove the Christian God isn't real - what it is saying is that the situation God set up himself would be very skewed. You say Jesus Christ is the equalizer and such, yet is it any fair to the people who don't believe in Jesus simply because they believe what their parents told them? Chances are, you would NOT have been Christian had you grown up in a Middle Eastern environment. So are you lucky that you are going to heaven now? Sure, the people in the Middle East can accept Jesus as well (which a few do), but the point is they are significantly less likely because they strongly believe in their own religion.

He created out of love, but with the prior knowledge that many would be condemned. My entire point is - humanity is a creation of God. Said in the Old Testament. I really detest the free will argument but I'll attempt to address it.

You speak of free will, but fail to acknowledge the part that God still morphed what human nature is. God created man with sexual urges - but speaks and tells us to resist them. Why? They are amoral. Why are they amoral? Because... God said so.

Where in the Bible does it say that God created man with a compulsion to sin? You're writing it in, it doesn't say that at all. Adam and Eve had sex all the time and it wasn't sinful, sex drive isn't amoral.

And "God said so" seems like a pretty good reason to me. Can you think of a better one?

I used common sense - God created man. Therefore man is God's creation. Everything man is, is because of what God has done.

Sex drive to have sex with multiple people is amoral, what he considers "adultery." Now it seems we're going back to dismissing what is potentially logical, and going with the simple blind faith "because God said so." My point is, what logic does he have behind it?

I made it quite clear in my original post that I didn't want blind faith as an answer. If you believe blind faith should be the answer - then good for you, but something of such doesn't have any place in a logical debate trying to discuss his motives. I very well could be wrong, and maybe we don't understand his ulterior motives, yet that isn't the point of the thread, which is to try anyways.

The point I'm trying to make - God has decided to what is moral and amoral. He has decided that homosexuality is evil, yet I'm sure that none of the ancient Greeks thought nothing of the subject beca

I wouldn't say that he "decided," I'd say that since God's nature is good, anything not of God's nature is evil. Good and evil weren't decided upon, they were simply evident truths. Much like looking at the fundamental laws of physics. Masses just happen to attract each other.

Of course God decided - God dictates everything. He decided that killing animals wasn't evil, but killing humans is. He decided to create the world, etc. The fact that estimates say that around 1/10 males are homosexual is enough to say it's somewhat in our nature as well. Where is that fundamentally evident truth? I can't understand it quite so much since I'm not homosexual, but I'd say 10% numbers are definitely large enough where it doesn't just happen because people "want to do it."

Why did God decide? Because he created gender as well. And by the way he created gender he decided that two of the same gender would be evil to lie together.

And I don't care what those doctrines say. The Catholic Church said that you can buy your way out of purgatory.

Really?

Yes

I don't see any evidence for that in the Bible either.

Where in the Bible does it say that the Bible is the only authority we should follow?

Because all the information you have is based off the Bible. Everything else, unless it's a prophet God is speaking through, is merely man's interpretation. You must make the same interpretation as the others have made from the Bible. Thus you should quote the Bible and where you found such information from, not some other man's interpretation that you don't understand why it's like that.

Don't use other man's interpretations of what religion means to them for your answers. Take it out of the Bible directly.

Why do YOU get to decide what is authoritative and what isn't?

Really? Can you not comprehend this? My point is everything that you say is true has to have been based off the Bible. You cant' pull something random out of your ass and say it to be true without any evidence. Your evidence is just something some other man has said, which holds no ground when discussing God's word.

It doesn't prove A God does not exist - it proves the Christian God does not exist. And I think I made it clear that's the only God I'm referencing to.

So once again, how does that prove that the Christian God doesn't exist? Even if it were proven that the Christian God is cruel according to YOUR definition of the word (which I don't concede), how does that prove that he doesn't exist?

A cruel, unloving God? I figured that was a direct contradiction to what the Bible was trying to tell us. Simple as that. Why would I believe in something if I feel the system didn't make sense and thus God was lying to us? Sure he could exist - but the way he's portrayed would be false.

The Bible does not say NO ONE is favored. I recall numerous accounts in the Old Testament where people are directly favored. You want me to believe in one half but not the other? How can I believe in the New Testament without believing in the Old. Are you saying everyone before the New Testament got screwed?

Christ opened the gates of heaven. No one could get into heaven before Christ. This is Christian theology taken from the Bible. Christ is the great equalizer; suddenly, both Jew and Gentile are saved. The Old Testament is a historical account and historically God favored certain nations, but out of his infinite love he offered all men of all time the opportunity for salvation by Jesus Christ.


Ok now I have to go to work, but seriously dude, it seems to me that you are deliberately misunderstanding the Bible and making assertions with little backing.

No one could get into heaven before Jesus? Where is Moses then? All those other dudes? What about all the people that God killed in Soddom and Gomorroh (sucks for them, as he's let San Francisco off the hook). So what you're saying is, God changed his mind? Where was Jesus Christ from the beginning? How could he even have made such an abomination such as humanity in the first place? You're basically telling me it's fair that he prefers some over others - I find a large problem in that, just as there's a problem when a parent favors one child over the other.

It seems to me all you have is blind faith as an argument. And basically as an argument "well this doesn't prove God doesn't exist." Well considering most of it is a direct contradiction to the Bible, I'm pretty sure it does.

[Snorri1234]

So what you're saying is, God changed his mind?

Awesome isn't it? We have this guy who is unchanging and eternal and then he suddenly changed from being an utter dick to not being an utter dick.

We are supposed to believe that the guy who basically tortured a person with plagues, famine and death of his relatives just to prove his fucking point to a dude who was just being contrary turned into someone who loves us all and would never hurt us.

Seriously, if one thing you get from the OT it's that God isn't nice. And then suddenly Jesus said that he was nice.

[suggs]

The ways of God are mysterious, Snorri! We just don't understand his complex plan.
God has, like, a giant Rubix cube or some shit.

[CrazyAnglican]

being prepared doesn't hurt.

Perhaps not to you, but I would rather not waste my entire life studying for a non-existent test in the hopes I get admitted to a spiritual Disney-Land.

Well, suit yourself, but we'll miss you on the Tilt-a-Whirl.

Speaking of which, have fun guys. I'm off to Florida as we speak.

[OnlyAmbrose]

Where do I get blind faith from? I said you get blind faith if you believe in something without understanding the reason why. You said it yourself - you can't possibly comprehend God's true motivations, nor can anyone else, but we should still believe in him anyways, because he has some great plan. That is blind faith.

What on earth are you talking about? Just because I don't understand what motivates a sociopath doesn't mean the sociopath doesn't exist. My understanding of someone/something's motivation is totally independent of whether or not said something exists.

*sigh* and you call me wanting to twist the words? You don't really seem to see anything. It would not prove the Christian God isn't real - what it is saying is that the situation God set up himself would be very skewed. You say Jesus Christ is the equalizer and such, yet is it any fair to the people who don't believe in Jesus simply because they believe what their parents told them? Chances are, you would NOT have been Christian had you grown up in a Middle Eastern environment. So are you lucky that you are going to heaven now? Sure, the people in the Middle East can accept Jesus as well (which a few do), but the point is they are significantly less likely because they strongly believe in their own religion.

The Bible says that there will be many Christians who will not be saved. "not everyone who says 'Lord Lord'" will be saved, or something along those lines. Just because you're "Christian" doesn't mean you're sincere, and just because you're not Christian doesn't mean you're not sincere. The Bible says that Jesus Christ is the only way to be saved, but the Bible also says that Christ's laws are written in the hearts of all men. Calling yourself Christian doesn't make you saved and not calling yourself Christian doesn't make you damned.

Once again my time is cut short, so I'll finish later...

[jay_a2j]

Think of it like this. The students are studying like mad their entire lives, only to find that in the end there is no final exam...and no teacher.

And when you get to that celestial classroom in the sky, what are you going to say when the teacher walks in? And I'd hate to see your grade on the exam!

[Backglass]

Think of it like this. The students are studying like mad their entire lives, only to find that in the end there is no final exam...and no teacher.

And when you get to that celestial classroom in the sky, what are you going to say when the teacher walks in? And I'd hate to see your grade on the exam!

No invisible, magical mystery teachers....no floating sky-classrooms...no celestial Disney Land with free e-ticket rides for all eternity with billions of party goers.

I know this troubles you deeply as you absolutely cannot comprehend the finality of death, but when you die...it's over.

Boom Boom out go the lights.

You are living your life NOW. Live it.

[jay_a2j]

Think of it like this. The students are studying like mad their entire lives, only to find that in the end there is no final exam...and no teacher.

And when you get to that celestial classroom in the sky, what are you going to say when the teacher walks in? And I'd hate to see your grade on the exam!

No invisible, magical mystery teachers....no floating sky-classrooms...no celestial Disney Land with free e-ticket rides for all eternity with billions of party goers.

I know this troubles you deeply as you absolutely cannot comprehend the finality of death, but when you die...it's over.

Boom Boom out go the lights.

You are living your life NOW. Live it.

You are wrong. With every fiber of my being, you are wrong. You have put all your chips on this life. The next life is so much longer than this one, yet you are betting on this life and all you have in your hand is a lone Ace.

[Juan_Bottom]

You are wrong. With every fiber of my being, you are wrong.

Dang Jay, that's pretty strong. Please excuse my frankness,...

You have put all your chips on the idea of a next life. This life is tangible and real, yet you are betting on this next life and all you have in your hand is a lone Ace.

This life is here, you know what you've got. There is no proof of another life. Great-grandma doesn't send us post cards or anything. Jay, there is always a chance that you are wrong, don't waste your life(not that you are).

[jay_a2j]

You are wrong. With every fiber of my being, you are wrong.

Dang Jay, that's pretty strong. Please excuse my frankness,...

You have put all your chips on the idea of a next life. This life is tangible and real, yet you are betting on this next life and all you have in your hand is a lone Ace.

This life is here, you know what you've got. There is no proof of another life. Great-grandma doesn't send us post cards or anything. Jay, there is always a chance that you are wrong, don't waste your life(not that you are).

I have absolute faith in God. From life experiences. Evidence of God, that I can not show others. It is a personal relationship with God. There is no chance I am wrong. None. I am THAT certain of God's existence. So certain that I would bet my life on it. I could not be this certain if I didn't have more than just a "belief" in God. I believe the Earth orbits the sun, but I would not stake my life on it.... the existence of God, I would.

[protectedbygold]

I'm off to Florida as we speak.

Have fun then. I appreciated the pm with some of the points you made. Look forward to chatting with you possibly once you return.

[FabledIntegral]

You are wrong. With every fiber of my being, you are wrong.

Dang Jay, that's pretty strong. Please excuse my frankness,...

You have put all your chips on the idea of a next life. This life is tangible and real, yet you are betting on this next life and all you have in your hand is a lone Ace.

This life is here, you know what you've got. There is no proof of another life. Great-grandma doesn't send us post cards or anything. Jay, there is always a chance that you are wrong, don't waste your life(not that you are).

I have absolute faith in God. From life experiences. Evidence of God, that I can not show others. It is a personal relationship with God. There is no chance I am wrong. None. I am THAT certain of God's existence. So certain that I would bet my life on it. I could not be this certain if I didn't have more than just a "belief" in God. I believe the Earth orbits the sun, but I would not stake my life on it.... the existence of God, I would.

Just as thousands of others have been THAT certain that they've died for their false idols? But no - the thousands/millions of others that have already given their lives... they don't know what the heck they were doing. Because YOU are certain...

What's amusing is such said feeling of certainty is said to be nothing more than a chemical reaction in the body. Just as scientists are researching as they believe they've found a certain chemical reaction in the body that controls the emotion of love... and it's not even in the heart! But all of that would be blasphemy... believe what your parents have told you!