Das Schloß [QUENCHED #2]

[t-o-m]

no offense but this is bullshit. You can't just change the map when it wasn't stamped for that gameplay.

If we want to make a policy that new maps are uploaded but are not called new but beta then we can use it as a testing system where any final gameplay tweaks can be made that's one thing (players can lose points at their own risk). Just changing it without disclosing anything is something else entirely.

i reluctantly have to say that i agree

i fully support you cairns but i think that any gameplay changes should go through oak - and he has the final say, or the gameplay goes under review again.

also i gotta game going in this and its so confusing lol!
do you have to have ALL the objective places?

[oaktown]

Alright, I have to say I'm a bit confused in part because i honestly don't remember how many starts there were when I stamped this. The first post of the thread, which was last updated May 3 (after the XML was written), says the map plays as follows:

Total - 92 Terts
* Starters - 26 (18 neutral)
* Town - 18 (10 neutral)
* Cablecars - 16 neutral
* Castle - 12 neutral
* Roads - 8 neutral
* Airport - 12 (4 neutrals)

Number of terts in play at start - 24

... everyone can decide to play the enemy Germans in either the town, or at the airport, since the whole area is heavily fortified with Germans.
In the town, and the airport, you will have to fight each other for control of those territories.

Was this the original intent, or was this changed after the XML was written?

As for the change itself, I don't really have an issue with it. I would consider this a friendly amendment to the gameplay intended to open up more of the map, and it is one that I would have approved after the stamping. Furthermore, the change does not significantly impact how anybody plays the game now - I can see a scenario where somebody in a fog game might be surprised to arrive at the castle and find only neutrals, but the current gameplay has been well documented in this thread so I would be surprised if the change cost anybody a game.

That said, in the future it would nice if I was PM'd about such a change when it occurs so we don't have to go through this after the map goes live. I'd be much happier to pop in and give a change a quick "OK" than have to deal with this kind of thing later.

Anywho, the biggest issue seems to be fixing the XML issue mentioned earlier. If folks think that this needs a gameplay revamp based on the starts and the inability to play terminator/assassin games we can throw it back into the foundry, but now that it's live we shouldn't do anything other than work out the bugs.

[Herakilla]

i thought the intent of this map was to have an objective map. changing the map would be similar to that outcry when some1 won an assassin game on aor magic with sanctuary.

[edbeard]

the change makes the castle almost useless. why am I going to attack all sorts of neutrals (at least 9 territories just to get to kontrol 2). There's only a bonus for holding the entire castle. The castle will only come into play if the game is almost over. this is why we had starting armies on the castle.

what's the point of giving feedback and stamping if the map can just change because the map maker decided to change it without consulting anyone?

[oaktown]

i thought the intent of this map was to have an objective map. changing the map would be similar to that outcry when some1 won an assassin game on aor magic with sanctuary.

I tend to agree... it's nice to have one objective-only map. What the site needs (in addition to a week of play-testing before each map goes live) is to note on the Map page some fundamentals about each map, so nobody tries to play this map in assassin mode.

what's the point of giving feedback and stamping if the map can just change because the map maker decided to change it without consulting anyone?

Again, I agree. As I said, it woud've been nice to have been informed of the change, but there's not much we can do about that now. The castle starts could be re-introduced without affecting current games... maybe we should let it play out for a few days, see if Ed's right about the castle being useless (though I believe it is a required objective) and then run a poll to see if the other eight starts shoudl go back in??

[edbeard]

the only other way to the castle is via the helipad.

the only reason to go to the castle is to complete the objective. the only time it makes sense to do this is when you have a good hold on the other objective territories. then keep everyone at bay and go to the castle and get the other territories for the objective. all the eight former starting positions no longer serve any purpose. dead weight on the map that will only be conquered in rare cases.

[Crissipos]

This map is a very good idea! But I'm sorry for cairnswk , I don't think this map will last veryyy long..
I just played this one in sequential mode (not a good option I guess).. so in my second turn I could already deploy 32 armies, and then bombard the other player, so he had almost no bonusses.. the game was already decided in the second round
and then the second player cannot be killed and has to stay untill the game has finished.. (deadbeating !)
this is only a game to play in freestyle

Edit: I just played it in freestyle, and it is a lot more fun

[seamusk]

This map is a very good idea! But I'm sorry for cairnswk , I don't think this map will last veryyy long..
I just played this one in sequential mode (not a good option I guess).. so in my second turn I could already deploy 32 armies, and then bombard the other player, so he had almost no bonusses.. the game was already decided in the second round
and then the second player cannot be killed and has to stay untill the game has finished.. (deadbeating !)
this is only a game to play in freestyle

Edit: I just played it in freestyle, and it is a lot more fun

I played several today. Pretty much everyone has come to the conclusion that the winner is the first down the chutes and into the artillery. No one worries about the castle or other objectives until that is done. No one who wins anyhow. It is a great map but it needs balancing with the game play. Even if armies are re-introduced into the castle this chutes and artillery option is gonna end most games. Just my two cents. But I think the bonuses need to be recalibrated or something else needs to be done.

[Crissipos]

I have to change my opinion, the freestyle games are pretty fun to play!
allthough I see people creating sequential games on this map.. too bad this cannot be restricted.. that's just for a fastpoints win I guess

so this game has to be played in freestyle

seamusk, I was the second to get in the artillery zone, and still won but once you have it for atleast 2 rounds, then it should be easy

I understand what you mean though.. allthough I don't know how to solve this

[seamusk]

I don't like freestyle but I like the map. It would be too bad if it couldn't be played in both sequential and freestyle modes effectively.

[kletka]

I don't like freestyle but I like the map. It would be too bad if it couldn't be played in both sequential and freestyle modes effectively.

This map needs some major rebalancing Here are a few of many bullshit ideas of mine! Notice that they are based on 1v1 games which are pretty much a forgone conclusion now

1) Diversify sources of power: chutes, castle and airport should give approximately equal bonuses so that it makes for a player to build up elsewhere.
2) Different flaks should have access only to some of the chutes, for instance AC can only shoot P* and J*

Other bullshit ideas require changing the map, so I w8 with them

[BENJIKAT IS DEAD]

I have played a number of seq 1v1s on this now (at least 3 with kletka), and am of the opinion that it is impossible to win from 2nd against anyone who has the slightest clue what to do.

I also think that games with more than 2 players will also degenerate either in favour of those who start, or to a stalemate.

Currently the map is about the 8 parachutes and forward positions, control posts, AA guns and the neutrals between them and the germans (who have slightly easier access to the guns) - AND NOTHING ELSE. The entire rest of the map is irrelevant (and taking starting positions away from the castle can only exacerbate this).

The bonuses get too high too quickly, and are too easily broken with the AA guns.

I really like the layout and the intentions, and think that it can be fixed just by amending some of the staring locations, neutral numbers and/or bonus structures.

Suggestions:

- Stick at least 30 neutrals on the AA guns and/or have them respawn each turn
- have each gun only able to target a limited number of the "parachutes"
- Make the "starting neutrals" on the left hand side much tougher - at least 5 each - (and btw the suggestion someone had about the artillery putting more than 1 there actually makes the whole thing worse)
- Have each player only start with ONE parachute regardless of the game type / number of players
- up the airport & town bonuses considerably - to match the parachute ones - i.e. +2 for each starting position at the very least
- reinstate the castle starting positions and up the castle bonus considerably (including some sub-bonuses) - at the moment taking well over 40 neutrals for +7 is a complete waste of time
- even though +1 is a very small amount (for this map), it does seem ridiculous to get even more reward for holding the AA guns, when holding them is the key to winning in the first place



BTW I have studied this map extensively through it's development, but have been unable to post anything meaningful until now after having been able to play it. WHEN are we going to get the playtesting we so desperately need (especially for maps where "bonus calculators" etc are meaningless).

[yeti_c]

- Have each player only start with ONE parachute regardless of the game type / number of players

This isn't currently possible I'm afraid...

The rest of your suggestions look good though...

C.

[oaktown]

benjikat's idea about making the guns killer neutrals could be a good solution - that way nobody can just camp out in a gun and wail on everybody. ??

[yeti_c]

benjikat's idea about making the guns killer neutrals could be a good solution - that way nobody can just camp out in a gun and wail on everybody. ??

Could be tied to the story too...

You can't stay on the guns for too long else you will give your position away and be captured!?!

But does it then not shift the onus to the territories next to the guns - i.e. build next to them - then grab a gun - kick ass - and retreat...

C.

[BENJIKAT IS DEAD]

benjikat's idea about making the guns killer neutrals could be a good solution - that way nobody can just camp out in a gun and wail on everybody. ??

Could be tied to the story too...

You can't stay on the guns for too long else you will give your position away and be captured!?!

But does it then not shift the onus to the territories next to the guns - i.e. build next to them - then grab a gun - kick ass - and retreat...

C.

It wouldn't be enough on it's own - because the most important thing is to get to them first - not how hard it is next time. Essentially he who goes first gets +30 odd a turn, and he who goes second gets 11. Even in 8 player games, someone should be able to hold all the others down to +5/6 per turn whilst getting twice that.


All this being said I am looking forward to playing some team games on it as it is.

[seamusk]

1. Killer neutrals is a good idea.
2. And I agree that the guns should be limited on which chutes can be attacked.
3. Those two plus making +2 bonus in the town and increasing the airport bonus a bit will even things out.

I don't know the story but it seems that the chutes are supposed to be important. So is that why we encourage the higher bonuses there? Whatever the case the map is most definitely not working. I love it and stopped playing as of my last game last night. Every game I was in was the same. Everyone but the winning players got pinned down at the parachutes. They might have started building at the airport or town but even if they started doing that long before the guy holding the guns did anything more than shoot people down, that guy just rolls through them and wins. And in every situation we have had 4, 5, or many more rounds of just waiting for the guy with the guns to claim the prize while he fights the neutrals.

[oaktown]

... Essentially he who goes first gets +30 odd a turn, and he who goes second gets 11. Even in 8 player games, someone should be able to hold all the others down to +5/6 per turn whilst getting twice that.

Right... seems as if the chutes bonuses either need to be dropped or the bonuses elsewhere increased, since right now there seems to be only one way to begin this game with any chance of winning.

Clearly I wasn't reading my own rules for gameplay when I stamped this: there should be multiple possible roads to victory, and the map should be playable in a variety of game settings.

[BENJIKAT IS DEAD]

Clearly I wasn't reading my own rules for gameplay when I stamped this: there should be multiple possible roads to victory, and the map should be playable in a variety of game settings.

I wouldn't be too embarrased about it - just use whatever leverage you may have to fight for a playtest area/period.

[yeti_c]

just use whatever leverage you may have to fight for a playtest area/period.

Agreed!!

C.

[cairnswk]

Well, clearly i have upset a few people...that's not surprising for me.
However, the good thing is that we may get a good outcome from this little fiasco.
A review of the game has been placed in the hands of CAs and Andy for consideration for the map to come down and be re-balanced. That's not my preference, but it is an option.

So to start with below is the new xml
1. with fix for the starting position challenge provided by yeti_c
2. with schloss terits back in play but this time as they were meant to be in the starting position list at the beginning of the coding.

However, i have just run this through xml checker tool, and error message subsequent of that at the bottom of this code is about the minreinforment - can someone explain what this means please.

Code: Select all

Warning: No other countries border on Philby (it cannot be conquered)
Warning: Territory Philby has border P1, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory P1 has border P2, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory P2 has border CP1, but not vice versa
Warning: No other countries border on Jones (it cannot be conquered)
Warning: Territory Jones has border J1, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory J1 has border J2, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory J2 has border CP1, but not vice versa
Warning: No other countries border on Smith (it cannot be conquered)
Warning: Territory Smith has border S1, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory S1 has border S2, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory S2 has border CP2, but not vice versa
Warning: No other countries border on Neal (it cannot be conquered)
Warning: Territory Neal has border N1, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory N1 has border N2, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory N2 has border CP2, but not vice versa
Warning: No other countries border on Mills (it cannot be conquered)
Warning: Territory Mills has border M1, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory M1 has border M2, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory M2 has border CP3, but not vice versa
Warning: No other countries border on Timms (it cannot be conquered)
Warning: Territory Timms has border T1, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory T1 has border T2, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory T2 has border CP3, but not vice versa
Warning: No other countries border on Yves (it cannot be conquered)
Warning: Territory Yves has border Y1, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory Y1 has border Y2, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory Y2 has border CP4, but not vice versa
Warning: No other countries border on Casey (it cannot be conquered)
Warning: Territory Casey has border C1, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory C1 has border C2, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory C2 has border CP4, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory Kontrol 3 has border DC 1, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory UC 1 has border UC 2, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory UC 2 has border UC 3, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory UC 3 has border UC 4, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory UC 4 has border UC 5, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory UC 5 has border Kontrol 2, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory DC 1 has border DC 2, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory DC 2 has border DC 3, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory DC 3 has border DC 4, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory DC 4 has border DC 5, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory DC 5 has border Kontrol 4, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory R4 has border Wache In, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory R8 has border Militärlager, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory Bus Schuppen has border R1, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory Kontrol 1 has border UC 1, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory Wache Aus has border R5, but not vice versa
Error: Min reinforcement has value of zero
Summary: 1 errors and 48 warnings detected in das_schloss_240508.xml (46 continents, 106 territories)

LInk to file: (this does not have any re-balancing siggested in the above posts).
http://h1.ripway.com/cairnswk/das_schloss_240508.xml

[cairnswk]

just use whatever leverage you may have to fight for a playtest area/period.

Agreed!!

C.

Agreed here also!

[Incandenza]

just use whatever leverage you may have to fight for a playtest area/period.

Agreed!!

C.

Agreed here also!

Been beating that drum for some time, so, yeah, agreed!

[wicked]

Clearly I wasn't reading my own rules for gameplay when I stamped this: there should be multiple possible roads to victory, and the map should be playable in a variety of game settings.

Perhaps one shouldn't stamp his own maps? It's very easy to miss things when you've been staring at the files/map the whole time. A fresh set of eyes is always helpful. And don't get offended, this is meant to be constructive. In the real world, QC is never done by the designer.

[BENJIKAT IS DEAD]

...and just in case I came across all critical above and little else, I really hope that a solution can be found because it is so much FUN