Logic dictates that there is a God!

stinkycheese · Post by **stinkycheese** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:37 pm

What if god is evil and satan is actually the good guy? Is there any evidence that can prove otherwise? All you christians could be worshiping the wrong guy here. And god will torture you for all eternity for being so foolish as to worship him.

And don't give me something from the bible...the bible is just a tool used by god to corrupt your mind into thinking that god is good.

WintersTwilight · Post by **WintersTwilight** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:42 pm

Dear Backglass,

It actually isn't silly at all in everyday life. It is the way that it must be in order for everyday life to go on as it has. If the police pulled me over for speeding, then it is true that I was going slower than a comet, but the comparison is not between me and a comet, but between me and the speed limit. For there to be relative opposites as there are, there must also be a standard.

I do not understand how it is that if you do not believe in God, or any god, then how can you make statements like, "God created evil." If you do not believe in God, then how can you believe that God did anything? To say that God created evil does not disprove the existance of God. In fact, if you truely believed it, then you would believe that God exists. Why is it then that you do not believe in God?

-WT

Dear Mirak,

I don't understand where you got that idea at all. I do not believe that God has an opposite, but I do believe that Hell is where God is not. So perhaps rather than God sending people away to Hell as if it is punishment (which I believe it is), God is simply allowing people to have free will. If people choose God over themselves, then they shall be with God, but if they choose themselves over God, then they shall be with themselves apart from God. As for those who lived and died before Jesus, I doubt very much as to whether they will be judged in the same way, for Jesus brought a new covenant.

These of course are things that appear in Christianity. Arguing against Christianity does not seem logical if you do not believe in God to begin with. Why not argue that God does not exist? You must understand, however the one whom you agrue against. You must understand what they believe about God, otherwise you may end up only disproving the existance of your own conception of God.

-WT

Just because one does not understand, that does not mean that no one understands.

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:46 pm

WintersTwilight wrote:I do not understand how it is that if you do not believe in God, or any god, then how can you make statements like, "God created evil." If you do not believe in God, then how can you believe that God did anything?

I dont understand either, as I have never said the things you claim I have.

You are confusing my posts with someone else.

WintersTwilight · Post by **WintersTwilight** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:52 pm

Dear Backglass,

I apologize, it was Mirak who said it.

-WT

Mirak · Post by **Mirak** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:17 pm

WintersTwilight wrote:Dear Mirak,

I don't understand where you got that idea at all. I do not believe that God has an opposite, but I do believe that Hell is where God is not. So perhaps rather than God sending people away to Hell as if it is punishment (which I believe it is), God is simply allowing people to have free will. If people choose God over themselves, then they shall be with God, but if they choose themselves over God, then they shall be with themselves apart from God. As for those who lived and died before Jesus, I doubt very much as to whether they will be judged in the same way, for Jesus brought a new covenant.

These of course are things that appear in Christianity. Arguing against Christianity does not seem logical if you do not believe in God to begin with. Why not argue that God does not exist? You must understand, however the one whom you agrue against. You must understand what they believe about God, otherwise you may end up only disproving the existance of your own conception of God.

-WT

Just because one does not understand, that does not mean that no one understands.

Dear WT

An interesting post script in view of your opening sentence :wink:

As for the post you are responding to, there was a hint of irony intended and I apologise if that was not made clear beforehand.

I do not believe in the existence of God.
I understand you to be a Christian and therefore respond to your arguments within the framework that you have chosen to believe.

If there is one thing the longevity of this thread has demonstrated it is that the inability to prove the absence of God is not proof of his existence..and the opposite is also true...I call this, the opposite is also true..(friendly sarcasm)

However as I am debating with people who do believe in a God I hope that by pointing out the contradictions in the nature of the God they believe in may actually start them thinking that maybe he does not exist...at least in the form that they envisage

ATB
Mirak

Stopper · Post by **Stopper** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:23 pm

WintersTwilight wrote:Arguing against Christianity does not seem logical if you do not believe in God to begin with.

I dunno, it seems logical to do so if you have Christians arguing for the existence of God in the first place. After all, this very thread is entitled "Logic dictates there is a God", not "Logic dictates there is no God"...

ttocs · Post by **ttocs** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:27 pm

wow... this is a long forum...

OnlyAmbrose · Post by **OnlyAmbrose** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:26 pm

jay_a2j wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:
I can agree with that. Jay?

You can do whatever you want, free will allows that.

I wasn't asking for your permission to believe something I was asking if you agree with it as well

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:10 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:
I can agree with that. Jay?

You can do whatever you want, free will allows that.

I wasn't asking for your permission to believe something I was asking if you agree with it as well

I can plead "no contest" to the two quotes. The last line he wrote however, I firmly disagree with.

Now about the thread Title it seem as stated earlier in the thread that there can only be a few "concepts" that could be deemed as "logical:

1. That the Universe and all life within it has always existed. - this option is just not logical and it leaves us with no explination to the orgin of life question.

2. That the Universe and all life within it was created from nothing. - This option takes more faith to believe in than does the existence of God.

0r

3. That the Universe and all life within it was created by God, an all-powerfull, eternal being. - Finally, we have stumbled upon logic!

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:17 pm

jay_a2j wrote:That the Universe and all life within it has always existed. - this option is just not logical and it leaves us with no explanation to the orgin of life question

How is this any less logical than saying a magical god has always existed?

How is the "mystery of life" question any less logical than the "mystery of what was doing before the creation or who create him" question?

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:22 pm

Backglass wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:That the Universe and all life within it has always existed. - this option is just not logical and it leaves us with no explanation to the orgin of life question

How is this any less logical than saying a magical god has always existed?

How is the "mystery of life" question any less logical than the "mystery of what was doing before the creation or who create him" question?

What God was doing before the creation? Well, one thing is certain He created Angels.

Who created God? "I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end" God always has been and always will be.

stinkycheese · Post by **stinkycheese** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:39 pm

Now about the thread Title it seem as stated earlier in the thread that there can only be a few "concepts" that could be deemed as "logical:

1. That the Universe and all life within it has always existed. - this option is just not logical and it leaves us with no explination to the orgin of life question.

2. That the Universe and all life within it was created from nothing. - This option takes more faith to believe in than does the existence of God.

0r

3. That the Universe and all life within it was created by God, an all-powerfull, eternal being. - Finally, we have stumbled upon logic!

You're joking right?

The burden of proof is on you...you can't just delcare god as truth. You are the one making the claim so prove it. You cannot exclude all possibilities except those three. You have no evidence supporting your position, except that other possibilities are unlikely, un-fucking-likely, not false, just unlikely. Even if the other possibilities were proven false, that doesn't mean that logic dictates that god exists. Your desire for certainty and simple answers is the only way you can explain the phenomenon of life. You avoid positive imformation...proving someone else wrong does not make you right.

Damn I think I just listed like 6 logical fallacies in your little spiel. That's not even all of them.

Furthermore, you cannot logically prove or disprove god's existence. Logic requires you to always question authority, to think critically. In order to determine a premise true logically, you must have empirical evidence.

Here are two more quotes for you:

Truth is the daughter of time, not authority.
--Sir Francis Bacon

The idea of god implies the abdication of human reason & justice; it is the most decisive negation of human liberty & necessarily ends in the enslavement of mankind both in theory & practice.
--Mikhail Bakunin

mr. incrediball · Post by **mr. incrediball** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:27 am

what i don't understand is, where did GOD come from? and no you can't take the easy way out and say "he is eternal" because, heres the thing, it's gonna wow you, stuff has begginings! so, answers, now all you ppl who no everything

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:29 am

mr. incrediball wrote:what i don't understand is, where did GOD come from? and no you can't take the easy way out and say "he is eternal" because, heres the thing, it's gonna wow you, stuff has begginings! so, answers, now all you ppl who no everything

God's origin? I think he was made in the big bang.

Get it?

Big bang?

Haha! Double Entendre! :roll:

WintersTwilight · Post by **WintersTwilight** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:51 am

Dear mr. incrediball,

I am not sure if I entirely agree that everything must have a beginning. The concept of beginning seems to imply the existance of time. But anything "before" the beginning of time might not have to have a "beginning". Even if they did have a beginning it would not be possible to measure "when" that beginning was because "when" also implies the existance of time. Rather than God being the one thing that has no beginning, it might be more accurate to say that God is the one thing who's existance does not depend on any other thing.

-WT

Knight of Orient · Post by **Knight of Orient** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:59 am

Backglass wrote:
Knight of Orient wrote:You have made your choice. The only true way, the way to eternal life is by choosing God. Thousands of years ago, the Bible was written. If you paly close attention, you would see that prophecies are coming true. The end times are near. You are blinded. Eternal agony is what you are headed for, if you do not leave the path it seems you have chosen.

You have made your choice. The only true way to happiness is to open your eyes and enjoy this life because there is no afterlife, and no gods. Thousands of years ago the bible was written to control people...keep them in line and encourage them to do "good". There is no "end time". You are blinded. A lifetime of superstition and rituals is what you are headed for if you do not leave the path it seems you have chosen.

The Bible is Gods word, so if it is meant to control people, I guess you are saying then that God is real. It seems that you are contradicting yourself now.

OnlyAmbrose · Post by **OnlyAmbrose** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:18 am

Knight of Orient wrote:
Backglass wrote:
Knight of Orient wrote:You have made your choice. The only true way, the way to eternal life is by choosing God. Thousands of years ago, the Bible was written. If you paly close attention, you would see that prophecies are coming true. The end times are near. You are blinded. Eternal agony is what you are headed for, if you do not leave the path it seems you have chosen.

You have made your choice. The only true way to happiness is to open your eyes and enjoy this life because there is no afterlife, and no gods. Thousands of years ago the bible was written to control people...keep them in line and encourage them to do "good". There is no "end time". You are blinded. A lifetime of superstition and rituals is what you are headed for if you do not leave the path it seems you have chosen.

The Bible is Gods word, so if it is meant to control people, I guess you are saying then that God is real. It seems that you are contradicting yourself now.

I hardly think that is what he's saying, bud. He's saying it was written by people in order to control other people, with no divine inspiration included. There's no need to warp his words

ElMark · Post by **ElMark** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:28 am

A good example of the bible not being a definitive guide is the fact that christianity is divided into many sects, each with a slightly different interpretation of the bible. If the bible is divine inspiration, then why are there so many divisions of christianity? Not to mention the big division of christianity, judaism, and islam...all of which worship the same God. Why is God telling the majority of the people in the world different things? So either this material is man's interpretation OR God is a sadist.

Knight of Orient · Post by **Knight of Orient** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:33 am

OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Knight of Orient wrote:
Backglass wrote:
Knight of Orient wrote:You have made your choice. The only true way, the way to eternal life is by choosing God. Thousands of years ago, the Bible was written. If you paly close attention, you would see that prophecies are coming true. The end times are near. You are blinded. Eternal agony is what you are headed for, if you do not leave the path it seems you have chosen.

You have made your choice. The only true way to happiness is to open your eyes and enjoy this life because there is no afterlife, and no gods. Thousands of years ago the bible was written to control people...keep them in line and encourage them to do "good". There is no "end time". You are blinded. A lifetime of superstition and rituals is what you are headed for if you do not leave the path it seems you have chosen.

Sorry for the confusion, i was just stating that the Bible was not written by humans to control them, but rather that humans were spoken to by God to write the Bible, they were in sense, tools.

The Bible is Gods word, so if it is meant to control people, I guess you are saying then that God is real. It seems that you are contradicting yourself now.

I hardly think that is what he's saying, bud. He's saying it was written by people in order to control other people, with no divine inspiration included. There's no need to warp his words

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:48 am

ElMark wrote:A good example of the bible not being a definitive guide is the fact that christianity is divided into many sects, each with a slightly different interpretation of the bible. If the bible is divine inspiration, then why are there so many divisions of christianity? Not to mention the big division of christianity, judaism, and islam...all of which worship the same God. Why is God telling the majority of the people in the world different things? So either this material is man's interpretation OR God is a sadist.

The reason Christianity is divided up into many denominations is because man has a way of screwing things up. Denominations are man-made. Gods Word is perfect, without flaw. Now, where some denominations have small differences in interpretation they all agree on the basics; that Jesus is the Son of God, that He died for our sins and the only way to enter Gods kingdom is through Jesus. Then there are those who interpret Gods word in a way that distorts the Word of God. Jehovah Witnesses for example, believe that Jesus is less than God. They interpret (or twist) "The Father and I are one" to mean one in "spirit", not one in the same. Denying Jesus' equal staus with the Father.

Judiasm, Islam and Christianity.

Judiasm is an incomplete faith, not wrong just incomplete. It was prophesied that "He would be rejected by His own people" and predicted in the OT or Torah. The Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah (as predicted) but some of them recognize Jesus as Messiah today and more will in the future.

Islam is a false religion. They put Jesus at a mere "prophet" level, not Devine at all. Gods Word tells us that there will be many false teachings and the list is long...David Koresh is on that list.

Christianity

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me."

Master Bush · Post by **Master Bush** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:53 am

Logic dictates that this thread should have ended 57 pages ago. Also, god's gay.

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:33 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:I hardly think that is what he's saying, bud. He's saying it was written by people in order to control other people, with no divine inspiration included. There's no need to warp his words

Thanks Ambrose. Even Jay would admit that was quite a stretch.

mightyal · Post by **mightyal** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:12 pm

Master Bush wrote:Logic dictates that this thread should have ended 57 pages ago. Also, god's gay.

Deeply repressed homosexuality would explain many of Christianity's sins. Thank christ you've outed him.

slash1890 · Post by **slash1890** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:29 pm

Has anyone here read up on Constantine, and how he bastardized Christianity?

Mirak · Post by **Mirak** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:55 pm

jay_a2j wrote:Judiasm, Islam and Christianity.

Judiasm is an incomplete faith, not wrong just incomplete. It was prophesied that "He would be rejected by His own people" and predicted in the OT or Torah. The Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah (as predicted) but some of them recognize Jesus as Messiah today and more will in the future.

Islam is a false religion. They put Jesus at a mere "prophet" level, not Devine at all. Gods Word tells us that there will be many false teachings and the list is long...David Koresh is on that list.

Christianity

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me."

Jay
There are very few things as hypocritical and ugly as an obviously religious person showing contempt for other religions...
I somehow expected more from you

Logic dictates that there is a God!

Does God exist?