Logic dictates that there is a God!

zarvinny · Post by **zarvinny** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:41 pm

reply 1500!

i am amazed at the ability of both sides to sometimes issue coherent arguments that make sense and are backed by their own personal soures that the other side does not acknowledge as acceptable

23 Minutes of Hell, did a guy come back from hell and write a first account narrative of that book, did the devil or some other being that received first hand knowledge write the book, did someone receive second hand knowledge and write the book, or did a religious crapbag invent a story for his own monetary gain by splicing and inferring what is not there from religious texts and his own imagination?

ksslemp · Post by **ksslemp** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:49 pm

Econ2000 wrote:im making this nice and simple THERE IS NO GOD! NOW DEAL WITH IT!

This is TRUTH

You can "Know" that there is a God, but you'll never "Know" that there isn't!

OnlyAmbrose · Post by **OnlyAmbrose** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:53 pm

Econ2000 wrote:im making this nice and simple THERE IS NO GOD! NOW DEAL WITH IT!

I would love to see you try to prove it

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:11 am

God requires faith to exist.
Proof that God exists makes faith unnecessary, since God's existence becomes concrete.
God then ceases to exist.

I think He'd do his best to remove all physical, chemical, and spiritual evidence that He exists to ensure His continued existence. Hence, we can claim a non-God related origin to everything, since any evidence that God did it would prove His existence and thus destroy Him.

*takes two asprin* Man, metaspiritual forensics makes my head hurt.

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:23 am

ksslemp wrote:This is TRUTH

This is nothing more than superstition & ghost stories.

ksslemp wrote:You can "Know" that there is a God, but you'll never "Know" that there isn't!

You can go through your life deluded by fairy tales if you choose...I choose to face reality.

Enjoy this life...it's all you've got.

Mirak · Post by **Mirak** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:35 am

jay_a2j wrote:
I'm currently reading a book called 23 Minutes in Hell.... its NOT a fun place, please seek the truth. Eternity depends on it!

This is one of your best yet!
=D>

Now I know you are just pulling our chain :wink:

OnlyAmbrose · Post by **OnlyAmbrose** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:17 am

Backglass wrote:
ksslemp wrote:This is TRUTH

This is nothing more than superstition & ghost stories.

ksslemp wrote:You can "Know" that there is a God, but you'll never "Know" that there isn't!

You can go through your life deluded by fairy tales if you choose...I choose to face reality.

Enjoy this life...it's all you've got.

You can't prove they're fairy tales. YOU require "faith" too- faith that there is no God. You "know" that there is no God just as much as I "know" that there is one. Atheism requires faith, just as theism does.

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:34 am

OnlyAmbrose wrote:You can't prove they're fairy tales.

Now thats just silly. Must I also prove that Unicorns and Leprechauns dont exist in order to KNOW they dont? Of course not. Logic tells you they dont exist...which is my point.

OnlyAmbrose wrote:YOU require "faith" too- faith that there is no God. You "know" that there is no God just as much as I "know" that there is one. Atheism requires faith, just as theism does.

Wrong. This is a common rebut amongst the religious. You cannot imagine that someone simply doesnt believe in any religion, so you must attribute religious properties to them. Atheism becomes "faith in nothing" or some kind of "anti-religion" religion. It is neither. Just as you think the buddists, muslims, jews and hindu's are wrong, I just take it one step further and say you're all wrong.

Faith requires belief. I dont believe. I am religion free.

Mirak · Post by **Mirak** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:34 am

OnlyAmbrose wrote:You can't prove they're fairy tales. YOU require "faith" too- faith that there is no God. You "know" that there is no God just as much as I "know" that there is one. Atheism requires faith, just as theism does.

Nice play on words....is St Ambrose the patron saint of semantics?

Atheists do not believe there is a god...that is not the same as having "faith" that there is no god...there is no faith involved..unless you count faith in your own intelligence.

:wink:

OnlyAmbrose · Post by **OnlyAmbrose** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:12 pm

Mirak wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:You can't prove they're fairy tales. YOU require "faith" too- faith that there is no God. You "know" that there is no God just as much as I "know" that there is one. Atheism requires faith, just as theism does.

Nice play on words....is St Ambrose the patron saint of semantics?

Atheists do not believe there is a god...that is not the same as having "faith" that there is no god...there is no faith involved..unless you count faith in your own intelligence.

Not a play on words at all. I mean faith in the following context, taken directly from dictionary.com:

2. belief that is not based on proof

You cannot PROVE that there is no god. Therefore, by definition #2, you have FAITH that there is no god.

Unless of course you would like to prove a god doesn't exist.

Basically what I'm saying is that atheists aren't necessarily above "faith" themselves.

Stopper · Post by **Stopper** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:25 pm

Well, Bertrand Russell said something similar about a teapot which orbited between Earth and Mars. If someone was to tell you that there was such a teapot, which was so small it couldn't be seen by telescopes, you would probably choose to believe that it didn't exist.

You can't prove the teapot doesn't exist, so you would still have to leave that .00001% uncertainty that the teapot might actually exist, but this is so immaterial that effectively you're an atheist with regard to this teapot. No faith is required as to the non-existence of the teapot.

OnlyAmbrose · Post by **OnlyAmbrose** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:51 pm

Stopper wrote:Well, Bertrand Russell said something similar about a teapot which orbited between Earth and Mars. If someone was to tell you that there was such a teapot, which was so small it couldn't be seen by telescopes, you would probably choose to believe that it didn't exist.

You can't prove the teapot doesn't exist, so you would still have to leave that .00001% uncertainty that the teapot might actually exist, but this is so immaterial that effectively you're an atheist with regard to this teapot. No faith is required as to the non-existence of the teapot.

Interesting analogy. And yet... since we are here, atheists must believe we came from SOMEWHERE... just not God. I gave a spiel on the Big Bang and it's immense improbablity without the presence of a supreme being earlier. If you want to read the full thing, it's on page 97, and some posts following it contain some points as well. Here are some vital points:

Now, how do atheists claim that matter became what it is today? The Big Bang Theory. All the matter in the universe was massed at ONE SMALL POINT (for our purposes let's assume it's the size of the head of a pin) at an infinitely small size, and it exploded, and now the universe is ever-expanding outward at mind-boggling speeds.

But how long was all that matter massed up like that? If matter has always been around, and before it resembled what it is today it was all amassed at that INIFINTELY SMALL point, then logically the argument by atheists must be that before matter expanded into the universe as we know it, it was at that point INFINITELY LONG.

Impossible. Against the laws of physics. Matter cannot exist for ANY longer than an infinitely short period of time in such a condensed form. When there is a high concentration at one point (in the case of our proverbial point in which all the matter in the universe is housed, the density/concentration is near-infinite, clearly a HIGH concentration, right? Wink ) and a lower concentration at the other (since we're talking ALL the matter in existance, this means the concentration everywhere but that one point is zero, so we're talking an infintely large difference between the two), it will expand to fill the difference. That's why, scientists say, the Big Bang occured in the first place, and why we're still expanding.

But HOW was this infintely dense point held together for an INFINITELY LONG PERIOD OF TIME? In a one word answer, I'd tell you the following:

God.

Plain and simple. The presence of a supernatural being is a perfect explanation for why such a point could ever come into existance.

But I was taught by various books and teachers that the big bang occured the instant that the matter reached that infinitely condensed state. That the pent-up energies held within that single point of space that it reached critical mass in such a short amount of time that it couldn't be measured.

Precisely. But what made the matter reached that infinitely condensed state? That's where my view of the supernatural comes in... if everything around is vacuum, what force could make matter defy the laws of physics and converge into an infinitely small point, thus doing exactly the opposite of what the laws of physics suggest, it SHOULD go the other way around, unless there is an external force... see where I'm going?

Here's the main point. Someone posted the following reply to me:

Some scientistst think the big bang might have started as a singularity, i.e. a black hole in another universe, and because singularities screw with the laws of physics the only way for it to continue is to bud off into another universe i.e. ours. In which case we are supremely lucky to live in one that is able to produce and sustain life...

So we came from another universe? The prefix of universe being "UNI", I find that ridiculously unlikely. Probably just as unlikely as you find the concept of a god.

There is no way you can prove that we came from another universe. Nor is there any way you can prove ANY possible explanation for said point of matter's existance, which completely contradicts the laws of physics.

People then went on to say that there are phenomena in the universe no one can explain. If you believe that we came from one of these phenomena, and you claim you can't explain or know them, then is that not faith?

I could see the sans-God explanation of creation as the teapot just as well as I could see the avec-God explanation as such.

Stopper · Post by **Stopper** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:21 pm

You have moved into the origins of the universe. I can tell you now, that I haven't the faintest idea how the universe came into being. The Big Bang theory is the common consensus amongst physicists at the moment as far as I'm aware, but of course it leaves many question unanswered, and like most scientific theories have been, is probably wrong and will need modifications or maybe even an overhaul in the future.

The thing is, I don't need an explanation as to where we've all come from. I suspect that trying to find this out through science will lead to an infinite regression, where we'll get closer and closer to the answer, but never finally reach it. But none of this has anything to do with the existence of god. I can live with the existence of the universe being a complete mystery.

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:00 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:atheists must believe we came from SOMEWHERE... just not God.

Atheists are not a group or religion with a common belief system like catholicism, etc. The only thing we have in common is our absense of religion. Some will go for the big bang theory, others wont.

I take the same aproach the theisists do when talking about their god.

It's always been here.

heavycola · Post by **heavycola** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:27 am

Ambrose your quotes about the origins of the universe contain two major false assumptions - firstly that the universe had to be 'held together for an infintely long time' before expanding~: time came into existence with the big bang. There was no 'before' as we understand it.
Which is kind of my second point, i.e. the anthropic principle, which, in a way, states that there is no point arguing about how improbable our existence is; we do exist and therefore can ask these questions. Nothing more can be inferred from the fact of our existence alone, and to do so is only (understandable) anthropocentrism.

Plugging the holes that exist in our scientific understanding with god - what Richard Dawkins calls 'the god of the gaps' - is also understandable, but the gaps are shrinking and so is god. Thousands of years ago humans attributed everything - earthquakes, storms, spring, sunrise - to deities. But the more we understand, the less need there is for them. One day we will understand the universe better and god will vanish from that story, too.

I'm currently reading a book called 23 Minutes in Hell.... its NOT a fun place, please seek the truth. Eternity depends on it!

Jay man, don't ever read Harry Potter - its evilitude will blow your mind.

WintersTwilight · Post by **WintersTwilight** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:30 am

If God's existance depends on faith, then man created God and God did not create man. God's existance depends on nothing. This is what makes him God. He is the one thing that exists in and of Himself, all other things depend on something other than themselves to exist.

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:25 am

heavycola wrote:Jay man, don't ever read Harry Potter - its evilitude will blow your mind.

You don't have to worry about that...it won't happen. As I have not watched any of the movies either. :wink:

heavycola · Post by **heavycola** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:22 am

jay_a2j wrote:
heavycola wrote:Jay man, don't ever read Harry Potter - its evilitude will blow your mind.

You don't have to worry about that...it won't happen. As I have not watched any of the movies either.

because of the evil and witchcraft contained therein?

Mirak · Post by **Mirak** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:39 pm

WintersTwilight wrote:If God's existance depends on faith, then man created God and God did not create man. God's existance depends on nothing. This is what makes him God. He is the one thing that exists in and of Himself, all other things depend on something other than themselves to exist.

Gods existence does not depend on faith?! ](*,)

Jay look out you may have a serious challenger here...^^

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:20 pm

Mirak wrote:Jay look out you may have a serious challenger here...^^

Gods existence does not depend on faith. Mans relationship to Him does. God exists wether we have faith in Him or not. Winter is right and a welcome addition to the conversation. :wink:

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:47 pm

Ok, what if no one man had a relationship with Him. Would God cease to exist then?

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:00 pm

vtmarik wrote:Ok, what if no one man had a relationship with Him. Would God cease to exist then?

No.

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:02 pm

jay_a2j wrote:You don't have to worry about that...it won't happen. As I have not watched any of the movies either.

You are really missing out on some good entertainment. They are very well made FANTASY movies. That means they are not real, Jay. :lol:

I am curious...have you seen The Exorcist?

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:09 pm

Backglass wrote:
I am curious...have you seen The Exorcist?

Yes, and it was based on a true story. It shows the power of demons...or um elves in your case. :wink:

And I am not a fan of Fantasy flicks.

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:15 pm

jay_a2j wrote:
Backglass wrote:
I am curious...have you seen The Exorcist?

Yes, and it was based on a true story. It shows the power of demons...or um elves in your case.

Funny...let me see if I have this straight. Exorcist - Good, Harry Potter - Bad.

So it's OK to watch fantasy movies if good triumphs in the end?

I also do not believe in demons or exorcists Jay. You see...it's just a movie. You can relax! :lol:

Logic dictates that there is a God!

Does God exist?