Logic dictates that there is a God!

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:23 pm

I think we've actually completed the argument. I mean, on one shore we have the atheists (Backglass, etc.) who profess a lack of belief. While on the other shore we have the theists (Jay_a2j, etc.) who profess the perfection and completeness of their God. The only problem here is the whole 'logic dictates' thing. Logic dictates either possibility depending on your perceptions and beliefs. If you believe strongly in God, you can use logic to prove His existence, much the same way I can prove that horses have nine legs.

No horse has five legs.
A horse has four more legs than no horse.
Therefore, horses have nine legs.

Sure, no one can prove it using actual physical evidence, but logic doesn't need any kind of evidence. It's all about the process with logic, not content.

The way I see it, it was all symbolic. Christ dying on the Cross is a symbol for ultimate self-sacrifice to save others. A lot of people would take a bullet for someone, but they probably wouldn't hang on a cross for hours upon hours with whip wounds and a crown of thorns shoved into their brow to save someone's life. If you believe in this ethereal 'sin' thing then more power to you, but be kind enough to leave the atheists where they are. If God has a plan for the world, then those few people who don't subscribe to your particular church's interpretation of events and are thus destined for hell must play their own part in that plan. It's blasphemy to go against the plan, so why do it?

And if you're wondering what part of the conflict I am between the atheists and the theists, I'm that guy who sitting on a big billboard watching the war happen down below me as I share tea with weird gods.

mr. incrediball · Post by **mr. incrediball** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:25 pm

heavycola wrote:
You have as much faith in your belief that there are no gods as many people of faith have in their God. So you DO have a religion

::tears hair out in clumps::

Jay - a religion involves belief in a higher power and the observance of ritual in that higher power's name.

Atheism doesn't involve anything at all. It is just a belief that there is no god or gods. That's all. To call it a religion is absolutely ridiculous.

And i don't profess to hate religion, except when it interferes with the lives of those who want nothing to do with it - teaching fallacious, unscientific nonsense in schools, for example, or complaining when the ten commandments are taken down from classrooms and courts. If you could all just get on with believing in whatever it is you believe - genesis, witches etc - without bnothering the rest of us, i don't think religion would inspire much dislike at all.

i'm afrais this is where i disagree with heavycola, religion is simply belief, and, when a group of people believe in the same thing, they start celebrating their beliefs together and form a religion

mr. incrediball · Post by **mr. incrediball** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:33 pm

and as to where i am in the thiest/athiest argument, i'm the guy who tries to point out to all those that the argument is stupid and therefore everyone who is trying to force their beliefs on someone else (thiests and athiests alike) are also stupid.

god is NOT a fact, at least, not until we can prove it,
in the same way, neither is evolution, though so far evolution is pretty likely to be a fact,
the bible does not count as evidence,

maybe neither christianity or athiesm are right, maybe it's on of the other thousands of religions out there, or something completely different...

besides, it's not what you belive in that counts, it's how good a person you are inside,

if there are rewards and punishments after death, there are people on both sides who will get both, though the punishment probably isn't eternal, cause that'd just be mean :wink:

and THAT is all i have to say :lol:

Freetymes · Post by **Freetymes** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:37 pm

I do not beleive in the organized religions, they are run by humans and have been bastardized and used poorly.

However

I have seen god!

I saw him in my dieing grandmothers eyes and in the peace she gained from her strong beliefs in his power to comfort her.

THAT WAS REAL!

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:01 pm

Freetymes wrote:in the peace she gained from her strong beliefs in his power to comfort her. THAT WAS REAL!

...and she gained that peace on her own. It came from within her, not bequeathed upon her. What you saw was your Grandmothers strength & will.

Freetymes · Post by **Freetymes** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:21 pm

Backglass wrote:
Freetymes wrote:in the peace she gained from her strong beliefs in his power to comfort her. THAT WAS REAL!

...and she gained that peace on her own. It came from within her, not bequeathed upon her. What you saw was your Grandmothers strength & will.

However it was her belief in god that gave her that strength and will. Without it I have no doubt she would of given up hope and died in a much harder way. she had decidedly less pain (she refused meds) because she believed god was helping her. Whether he did or not is not the point. To her he was very real and thus he helped.

You want god to be a substance when in reality he resides in those who believe and may indeed not be a substance you can understand...

God is only real to those who choose to believe he is real.

So you are right... For you god does not exist. He is not real.
and
you are wrong... For many he is as real as the sun. Thus he exists.

All of this from an agnostic but I wonder and I do not discount something simply because I can not see or touch it...

Organized religion I can see and touch so it is easily discounted.

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:39 pm

Freetymes wrote:To her he was very real and thus he helped.

I understand what you are saying, but simply wanting something to be true does not make it so. Gary Berkowitz (son of sam) believed a dog told him to kill. It was very real to HIM, but we know dogs dont talk. The mind is very powerful. My wife does not use anesthesia at the dentist (FREAKY...I KNOW!) But it comes from within her...not from a god. Your grandmother used her belief in a god to block out her pain...but that doesnt prove that a god exists.

Freetymes wrote:God is only real to those who choose to believe he is real.

Like flying in Peter Pan?

slash1890 · Post by **slash1890** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:37 pm

So...it took 100 pages for us to finish this argument?

I tend to side with the athiests, but really I'm more agnostic. I fight for whichever side I feel isn't being represented as well as it should be.

OnlyAmbrose · Post by **OnlyAmbrose** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:30 pm

ok well hold off on the "the argument is over" thing until tomorrow. i have a pair of essays I need to write so I can't resopnd to a few points that have been made tonight, but please keep a pair of eyes on this topic

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:30 am

mr. incrediball wrote:
besides, it's not what you belive in that counts, it's how good a person you are inside,

"No one is Good but God"

"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"

mr. incrediball · Post by **mr. incrediball** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:42 am

^now thats just plain selfishness on god's part

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:51 am

mr. incrediball wrote:^now thats just plain selfishness on god's part

How is it selfish? God is without sin, we are not. God came to live as man and die so that we could be forgiven of our sin. God is far from selfish.

Phobia · Post by **Phobia** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:03 am

the fact is, we are never going to find out no matter how much we debate until we die. so to all debaters -

believe what you want to believe!

now im not much of a debater myself so im not going to argue with any of you, so goodbye

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:21 am

jay_a2j wrote:"No one is Good but God"

"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"

More meaningless quotes:

"I am the Lorax, I speak for the trees".

"He took the Roast Beast!"

"Would you eat them with a fox?"

My books are closer to the truth than your books.

Phobia wrote:believe what you want to believe!

Including fairy tales.

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:27 am

Backglass wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:"No one is Good but God"

"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"

More meaningless quotes:

"I am the Lorax, I speak for the trees".

"He took the Roast Beast!"

"Would you eat them with a fox?"

My books are closer to the truth than your books.

Phobia wrote:believe what you want to believe!

Including fairy tales.

backglass what turned you sooooooooo against God? You hate Him far too much to not believe He exists.

Phobia · Post by **Phobia** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:27 am

Backglass wrote:
Phobia wrote:believe what you want to believe!

Including fairy tales.

yes, if you want to believe that then do so

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:02 pm

jay_a2j wrote:backglass what turned you sooooooooo against God? You hate Him far too much to not believe He exists.

You cannot hate what does not exist. Why do you hate Unicorns? You must hate them since you deny their existence.

Sounds silly doesnt it.

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:03 pm

Phobia wrote:yes, if you want to believe that then do so

Look around....millions do. :roll:

Stopper · Post by **Stopper** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:25 pm

Phobia wrote:
Backglass wrote:
Phobia wrote:believe what you want to believe!

Including fairy tales.

yes, if you want to believe that then do so

I've never joined in on this thread, but I can't agree with you there, Phobia. People should be free to believe what they want to, but others have the perfect right to try and change their minds. If everyone started to believe whatever the hell they felt like, let's say, feng shui, Zen Buddhism, homeopathy, the badness of MMR, communism, free-market capitalism, whatever, everything would go to pot.

Mirak · Post by **Mirak** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:03 pm

jay_a2j wrote:
mr. incrediball wrote:^now thats just plain selfishness on god's part

How is it selfish? God is without sin, we are not. God came to live as man and die so that we could be forgiven of our sin. God is far from selfish.

OK let me get this right
God does not like sin (although presumably he created it)
Then he becomes a man and dies so that he can forgive us for being what he made us.....he may not be selfish but he sure sounds illogical to me...what a waste of omnipotence
but you knew that Jay

:wink:

WintersTwilight · Post by **WintersTwilight** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:38 pm

God did not create sin.

Mirak · Post by **Mirak** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:22 am

WintersTwilight wrote:God did not create sin.

Sorry...saying God created sin is about as silly as saying he created all good things.........

heavycola · Post by **heavycola** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:43 am

God creates man
God gives man free will because he want sus to love him of our own accord
Man invents sin by listening to a woman who listened to a snake
God, who is omnipotent and can do anythign he wants, decides on the following course of action: he impregnates a woman thousands of years later and has his own son murdered, which was a roundabout way of saying 'guys, everything's fine. Just because you you haven't tithed one-tenth of your income to me or wore two kinds of cloth together, as i explicitly told you in leviticus, doesn't mean you're going to hell. See?'

it all makes perfect sense :roll:

Xtians are fond of reminding us that we cannot know the mnd of god, although this is at odds with 'god wants us to evict the palestinians from their homes', 'god wants us to own guns', 'god wants us to cut welfare and give tax breaks to the rich', 'god wants us to victimise and demonise women who choose to have an abortion' etc etc.

Econ2000 · Post by **Econ2000** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:00 pm

im making this nice and simple THERE IS NO GOD! NOW DEAL WITH IT!

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:49 pm

Econ2000 wrote:im making this nice and simple THERE IS NO GOD! NOW DEAL WITH IT!

I'm making this nice and simple.... you have the remainder of your life to re-think that.

I'm currently reading a book called 23 Minutes in Hell.... its NOT a fun place, please seek the truth. Eternity depends on it!

Logic dictates that there is a God!

Does God exist?