The CUBE

[paulk]

I apologise for missing images on the cubes. I have some problems with my host right now.

[Tieryn]

I see the images are back up, great hopefully you've sorted your server out?

I host all my images at http://www.photobucket.com and find it's real easy to use and saves me having space elsewhere... but anyway

A note on the wording. I really like the progress it's made, it's coming along nicely and is making good progress. I'd have to think we are close to forge, but again, close is a relative term, and I'd still probably be looking at a month at the outside, This isn't a fast process People are busy.

With the wording, I would still really like to take out the word "sphere", as I think it doesn't fit in with the polyhedra we are using. (Polyhedra have only straight lines, while a sphere has curves). Also the word has nothing to do with a cube, other than the army spaces looking like circles/spheres.

I would really like to use the word "vertex" or "vertices" as plural, and think that this would actually be an improvement for people. If they didn't know what the word meant, they could go look it up, and then learn something! We want to be educational with a map such as this, so lets be precise as well? Do you agree? I hope so

So text would run: (sorry I can't edit this and send it, but I don't have the fonts). Also with little graphical displays to help with clarification.

Code: Select all

   |   /
   | /
---O---
  /|
/  |
There are
64 vertices.
These form
108 squares
and 27
minicubes

    O---O
   /   /
 /   /
O---O
4 adjacent
vertices
connected
to form a
square
give +1

     O---O
   / | / |
 /   V   |
O---Oo___O
|   K   /
| / | /
O---O
8 adjacent
vertices
connected
to form a
minicube
give +3
extra

Each yellow
centre vertex
in a square
or minicube
give an 
extra +1,
counted 
only once

What do you think?

Oh, and my final point... Is with the naming of territories and a legend...

I think we should perhaps look at keeping all territories named by letters rather than numbers... It looks odd to me and I'm not sure which is which dimension, or why. It seems rather arbitrary, and this is something I'm sure they'd hit on in the forge.

So my idea to fix this is firstly we need to provide a legend to help read the map, as well as have the territory names logically constructed.

So usually when we talk dimensions we go alphabetically, and we talk x, y, z. Which looks like

Code: Select all

y      
|    z
|  /
|/______x

I think we should follow this same convention, but using the letter groupings we choose. I would suggest disjoint letter groupings to lessen any confusion between them.. For example, A-B-C-D, and P-Q-R-S, and W-X-Y-Z

So our legend would look like this...

Code: Select all

^        "/:
|S      Z
|R    Y
|Q  X
|PW
|/A_B_C_D->

If you think this is a good idea, and I think it is for ease of logic and readability, which is one of the things holding us back, then just post and let me know that you will do it (don't need to have it done immediately) and I'll get started doing the XML this way, but I don't want to change the XML until we're set.

[nooksack]

I like this map because it is so different from most others on the site. I would play it!

[paulk]

How about this one:

[Ditocoaf]

Good, but call them vertices instead of spheres. "Spheres" just adds even more geometry where it isn't needed. A cube isn't made of eight spheres, it's made with eight vertices.

[Tieryn]

Good, but call them vertices instead of spheres. "Spheres" just adds even more geometry where it isn't needed. A cube isn't made of eight spheres, it's made with eight vertices.

Thanks, I'm glad it's not just me championing this point... Paul, that's something that's really going to be a sticking point with me, and I suspect others. The word "sphere" should hold absolutely no place in a map about cubes. I really would like to see it replaced with the accurate "vertices" and "vertex". People do know what the word means, and if they don't, they'll learn...

That aside, I think the new legend looks much much better. I'd still like to have a look at a |/_ legend to show how the naming scheme. I've done up something that might be an idea of what I'm thinking.



If you squish the legend up a bit you could have room in the bottom right. The example square/cube look really good. I wonder if the square shouldn't contain a yellow? just so not to be confusing at the outset? Cube needs a yellow as it's impossible to not have one.

Also, on another note, looking at version 7 in post 1... I really like the greying of the back, bottom and left planes, it adds a sense of depth to the picture, which can be missed as the only thing currently doing it is the overlapping lines to show which concavity/vexity the cube has. The shading provides a good warm feel without taking away the background.

Another issue that's been raised before is the difficulty in distinguishing layers and levels... now I don't have this problem, as I can see them reasonably well, but currently what we have is each vertical face a single colour, and then white edges connecting in the 3D plane.

When making up the legend above, I was wondering what it would look like if all lines in a single dimension were the same colour. So all horizontal lines were yellow, all vertical lines were blue, and all horizontal lines were green. This would quite easily show which direction the connection was available in, as each colour would mean a transition along that set of letters (as outlined in the key). So Green lines attack from P to S...

The other logical one to me is actually to reverse what I've done in the key, with the top left vertex being A1W

Code: Select all

    A1Z----------D1Z
    /|          / |
  /  |        /   |
A1W--+------D1W   |
 |  A4Z------+---D4Z
 |  /        |  /
 |/          |/
A4W---------D4W

[FreeMan10]

If I hold the center cube, do I get a cube bonus of +3, and a yellow sphere/vertex bonus of +8 for a total of +11?

I'm not having any problems figuring out what vertex is on what plane, nor the direction of attack. I'm no math whiz, but I've got decent spatial relations, and this is pretty obvious to me. I think that for those whose sense of spatial relations is somewhat challenged (like my wife) may find this a difficult map to play, and probably won't play more than once, if at all. I don't see that as an issue, since this isn't the only map here at CC.

I think that having the horizontal planes numbered instead of lettered will make it much easier to figure out what's where. The number in the middle of the territ name helps to make it a bit more readable, to me. It seems to be more representative of something, as opposed to a string of random looking letters. Sort of BINGO like... people are familiar with B12 - BINGO!!

[Tieryn]

If I hold the center cube, do I get a cube bonus of +3, and a yellow sphere/vertex bonus of +8 for a total of +11?

I'm not having any problems figuring out what vertex is on what plane, nor the direction of attack. I'm no math whiz, but I've got decent spatial relations, and this is pretty obvious to me. I think that for those whose sense of spatial relations is somewhat challenged (like my wife) may find this a difficult map to play, and probably won't play more than once, if at all. I don't see that as an issue, since this isn't the only map here at CC.

I think that having the horizontal planes numbered instead of lettered will make it much easier to figure out what's where. The number in the middle of the territ name helps to make it a bit more readable, to me. It seems to be more representative of something, as opposed to a string of random looking letters. Sort of BINGO like... people are familiar with B12 - BINGO!!

Uhm.. If you hold the centre cube you get +6 one for each square, +3 for the cube, and +8 for the yellows, making it +17.
Of course, 24 territories can attack you, so holding it wouldn't be easy... or allowed by any reasonable opponents

Fair enough on the numbers, I suppose that makes sense. I'd still like EFGH to become WXYZ to disconnect them from the ABCD. ABCDEFGH sometimes causes me to misread, and possibly misdeploy/attack later.

The thing with the coloured lines was just an idea by the way, and not a direction or really even valid... I agree that the map looks good the way it is, but thought I'd bring this up to have a look at and resolve.

[yeti_c]

You can't hold a cube without holding a yellow "sphere".

C.

[Tieryn]

*nod* so technically any cube bonus is +4, then +1 for every yellow ball after the first... but it's easier to say it the way it is I think

Cube bonuses are as follows:

Corner: +10 (8 )
Edge: +11 (12)
Face: +13 (6)
Centre: +17 (1)

[FreeMan10]

Yipes! I didn't realize that the face and cube bonuses were cumulative.

Yeah, this is gonna be an aggressive game - I'm taking that spheretex just to keep you from getting that +834,429 bonus!

BTW- there are only 8 Edge cubes available - one between each pair of corners. Minor nit-pick.

As far as the letter groups go, I'd agree with WXYZ for the second letter. So long as there's a number in the middle, I think readability will be way up.

[Tieryn]

Yipes! I didn't realize that the face and cube bonuses were cumulative.

Yeah, this is gonna be an aggressive game - I'm taking that spheretex just to keep you from getting that +834,429 bonus!

BTW- there are only 8 Edge cubes available - one between each pair of corners. Minor nit-pick.

As far as the letter groups go, I'd agree with WXYZ for the second letter. So long as there's a number in the middle, I think readability will be way up.

You've missed the 4 around the middle band sorry to contradict your nitpick, but go look at a rubix cube 4 on top, 4 on bottom, and 4 around the middle 1 between each pair of corners... where each corner has 3 possible pairs 3d remember!

[paulk]

If I hold the center cube, do I get a cube bonus of +3, and a yellow sphere/vertex bonus of +8 for a total of +11?

Yes, plus +6 bonus for the squares. Total of +17. But you would be extreamly lucky/strong to hold it since if you loose only one corner your bonuses drop to +10 and if additionally loose the diamentral corner your bonus goes down to 0.

I think that having the horizontal planes numbered instead of lettered will make it much easier to figure out what's where. The number in the middle of the territ name helps to make it a bit more readable, to me. It seems to be more representative of something, as opposed to a string of random looking letters. Sort of BINGO like... people are familiar with B12 - BINGO!!

Thank you. And the fact that I made it ABCD and then EFGH is that in my head it is easier to just "continue around the corner" with EFGH.

[paulk]

Lets hold a minivote about:

EFGH versus WXYZ

and

spheres versus vertexes

Who prefers what?

If more people prefer one before the other I will change it.

[paulk]

aaaw, what the h... I bend over:

(Tieryn, I moved the whole cube 1 px to the right.)

[oaktown]

Legend is better than when last I checked. Still would hurt to have a vertex image shadowed behind the first use of the word, but I think people will get it.

I think calling each point a vertex is fine, but isn't the plural of vertex "vertices"??

I'm going to break down the cube bonuses again... this for a corner cube, which seems to net the smallest bonus, and is in turn the easiest to hold:
+1 for each of six sides = +6
+3 for holding the cube = +3
+1 for holding the yellow ball in the cube = +1
(I think the idea was that the yellow vertix would only count once, right? Because the one vertex in this cube is in three squares plus the cube.)
Total for a corner cube = +10

Specs for a corner cube: 8 territories, 7 border territories, 14 attackers. The +10 seems a bit high, but not terribly so given how hard it will be to hold a cube.

The center cube will be next to impossible to hold unless the game is pretty much over anyway, so who cares what the bonus is!

Suggestion: start with the yellow spheres neutral, and start them with like five armies on each. It takes away the possibility of somebody starting with a cube - which could happen in 2-4 player games - and it makes a player really earn that cube bonus.

[letuce]

Letuce thinks that this map looks wonderous

[letuce]

letuce likes the hyper cube more then the cuboid, but would like to have both versions if that is a possiblity

[paulk]

Legend is better than when last I checked. Still would hurt to have a vertex image shadowed behind the first use of the word, but I think people will get it.

I think calling each point a vertex is fine, but isn't the plural of vertex "vertices"??

I'm going to break down the cube bonuses again... this for a corner cube, which seems to net the smallest bonus, and is in turn the easiest to hold:
+1 for each of six sides = +6
+3 for holding the cube = +3
+1 for holding the yellow ball in the cube = +1
(I think the idea was that the yellow vertix would only count once, right? Because the one vertex in this cube is in three squares plus the cube.)
Total for a corner cube = +10

Specs for a corner cube: 8 territories, 7 border territories, 14 attackers. The +10 seems a bit high, but not terribly so given how hard it will be to hold a cube.

The center cube will be next to impossible to hold unless the game is pretty much over anyway, so who cares what the bonus is!

Suggestion: start with the yellow spheres neutral, and start them with like five armies on each. It takes away the possibility of somebody starting with a cube - which could happen in 2-4 player games - and it makes a player really earn that cube bonus.

1) I can change it to vertices.

2) Tieryn will make the yellow vertices divided between the players so that will eliminate the possibility of someone starting with a center cube.

[paulk]

Version 17:

[Ditocoaf]

I like the idea of the yellow vertices starting with neutrals; it means that the map will start simpler, until someone cuts a shortcut through the center.

[paulk]

I like the idea of the yellow vertices starting with neutrals; it means that the map will start simpler, until someone cuts a shortcut through the center.

I prefer to start with equally divided yellow vertices, so that no one gets a free center cube bonus.
It is my firm belief that neutrals hinder the game.

[gimil]

I have a major concern with how youve have presented the cube color wise. THe yellow center circles is easily recognisable but the rest ir looks like a cocktail of colored lines.

Would you consider making the outer square oa single color as well. And make all other connections white?

[Ditocoaf]

I have a major concern with how youve have presented the cube color wise. THe yellow center circles is easily recognisable but the rest ir looks like a cocktail of colored lines.

Would you consider making the outer square oa single color as well. And make all other connections white?

Well, the entire rest of the map is the outer cube, so I think the system he has actually is easier to read. Each layer is a different color (exept for the center cube), helping you to visualize the map once you've figured it out. I would be opposed to making the entire map in only two colors.

[Tieryn]

The trouble I see with making the center spheres the starting locations is that all of the starting locations border three others. Why attack out, when you could attack in and eliminate players before they ever get a chance?

I'd rather see the inner spheres begin neutral - this would eliminate the chance of anybody completing a cube, and still leave you with a solid 56 starting locations.

By "starting locations" I don't mean -only- starting locations. In an 8 player game, you would start with 1 centre vertex, as well as 7 randomly scattered non-yellow vertices.

In a 5 player game you would start with 1 yellow vertex (and 3 would be randomly neutral). You would then get 11 randomly scattered.

in a 2 player game you would start with 2 yellow vertices each (8/3=2.6`) with 4 neutral. You would then get 18 randomly scattered vertices.

The trouble with making the yellow vertices all neutrals, is that if I take a corner cube early on, before neutrals are eliminated, there is now a +5 neutral barrier defending my yellow vertex, and my inroad territories are reduced to 9 rather than 14.

With that in mind, I think starting neutrals will actually restrict and unbalance the gameplay, while starting yellows will not restrict anything, and you won't be able to eliminate a player first up, as they will have 7 other territs about the place.