Holy Wars - The Crusades - 13th Century

happysadfun · Post by **happysadfun** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:12 am

gavin_sidhu wrote:
reverend_kyle wrote:I think holding pinkies should be worth 2 no matter what.. but they be attacked from every territory.. that would make for interesting strategy.
Too big an advantage if you started with both of them.

Exactly. You would then be beaten to a pulp by anyone, because everyone can attack you. It works!

cowshrptrn · Post by **cowshrptrn** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:45 pm

if you did that you'd have to make it 1 individually, 2 if you hold a continent in addition to it maybe...

CHAMPOS · Post by **CHAMPOS** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:09 am

FINAL FORGE

A couple of final amendments made following the poll

Mongul Trides - harder to defend
Roman Catholics - easier to hold

this is now the final forge as my illustrator trial has run out

thanks to all - particularly Marvaddin

Champos[/img]

Marvaddin · Post by **Marvaddin** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:20 am

Thanks, friend. Its good participate of the creation of an interesting map like this one. Im very proud of the final result. Title, graphics, legend, all is great.

I would only change 2 little things...
1) Remove the small border between Jengis and Chernigov, adding a little one between Ogdai and Suzdal instead.
2) Add a sea

Beyond that, the map is perfect, I think.

Congratulations. =D>

reverend_kyle · Post by **reverend_kyle** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:22 am

happysadfun wrote:
gavin_sidhu wrote:
reverend_kyle wrote:I think holding pinkies should be worth 2 no matter what.. but they be attacked from every territory.. that would make for interesting strategy.
Too big an advantage if you started with both of them.
Exactly. You would then be beaten to a pulp by anyone, because everyone can attack you. It works!

Gavin isnt smart.. the only way you'd even likely get an advantage was if you also went first... and if so its only a 2 army advantage.. the dice could easily screw you out of one.

gavin_sidhu · Post by **gavin_sidhu** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:46 am

reverend_kyle wrote:
happysadfun wrote:
gavin_sidhu wrote:
reverend_kyle wrote:I think holding pinkies should be worth 2 no matter what.. but they be attacked from every territory.. that would make for interesting strategy.
Too big an advantage if you started with both of them.
Exactly. You would then be beaten to a pulp by anyone, because everyone can attack you. It works!

Gavin isnt smart.. the only way you'd even likely get an advantage was if you also went first... and if so its only a 2 army advantage.. the dice could easily screw you out of one.

The dice could also screw your opponents out of taking the pinks of you. A bonus of 2 men is equivelant to the bonus of Australia and South America, nothing to be sneered at, having a bonus like that at the beginning of the game doesnt increase playability. Also, i didnt calculate it but im pretty sure the chances of getting both wouldnt be that tiny, its happened to me before on Discworld, and ive only played that map twice. In a team game you are likely to hold the pinkies if you got them in the beginning.

reverend_kyle · Post by **reverend_kyle** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:48 am

gavin_sidhu wrote:
reverend_kyle wrote:
happysadfun wrote:
gavin_sidhu wrote:
reverend_kyle wrote:I think holding pinkies should be worth 2 no matter what.. but they be attacked from every territory.. that would make for interesting strategy.
Too big an advantage if you started with both of them.
Exactly. You would then be beaten to a pulp by anyone, because everyone can attack you. It works!

Gavin isnt smart.. the only way you'd even likely get an advantage was if you also went first... and if so its only a 2 army advantage.. the dice could easily screw you out of one.
The dice could also screw your opponents out of taking the pinks of you. A bonus of 2 men is equivelant to the bonus of Australia and South America, nothing to be sneered at, having a bonus like that at the beginning of the game doesnt increase playability. Also, i didnt calculate it but im pretty sure the chances of getting both wouldnt be that tiny, its happened to me before on Discworld, and ive only played that map twice. In a team game you are likely to hold the pinkies if you got them in the beginning.

I've never seen someone win carrying a 2 pt continent from the start..

I've seen someone carry one in over 6 instances.. take that into account.

CHAMPOS · Post by **CHAMPOS** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:31 am

kyle,

the bonus for holding each pink is 2 armies

2 for papal
2 for holy lands
4 for both

you ONLY qualify for this bonus if you already hold a group of territiories (i.e. own at least one continent)

marvaddin,

the border change would make monguls too difficult and make islam by far the best prospect
this way the browns can have 4 borders if go for 7 territories and 3 borders if go for 8 territories (i.e. inc cernigov)
sea??

reverend_kyle · Post by **reverend_kyle** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:44 am

CHAMPOS wrote:kyle,

the bonus for holding each pink is 2 armies

2 for papal
2 for holy lands
4 for both

you ONLY qualify for this bonus if you already hold a group of territiories (i.e. own at least one continent)

marvaddin,

the border change would make monguls too difficult and make islam by far the best prospect
this way the browns can have 4 borders if go for 7 territories and 3 borders if go for 8 territories (i.e. inc cernigov)
sea??

I know I dont like the you only qualify for the bonus.

Haydena · Post by **Haydena** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:05 am

Hang on, did you Final Forge this yourself?

Sheesh a sign of slight arrogance there if you ask me.

reverend_kyle · Post by **reverend_kyle** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:08 am

Haydena wrote:Hang on, did you Final Forge this yourself?

Sheesh a sign of slight arrogance there if you ask me.

yes he did.. and in accurately on top of that.. it should say [final forge]

Lupo · Post by **Lupo** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:31 am

One more time: it's ALMOHADES and not Alomhades!

Marvaddin · Post by **Marvaddin** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:04 am

CHAMPOS wrote:marvaddin,

the border change would make monguls too difficult and make islam by far the best prospect
this way the browns can have 4 borders if go for 7 territories and 3 borders if go for 8 territories (i.e. inc cernigov)
sea??

Yeah, I realized it. But once Mogul is taken, reduce the borders so easily is not good, I think, since other continents cant do that. And this way the Orthodox have 10 adjacent locations (including Papal and Holy), it would reduce it to 9. If you think Emirates is so superior, maybe we can do something... like another country.

Anyway, this is a minor change, and not really necessary.

CHAMPOS · Post by **CHAMPOS** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:17 am

Lupo

updated - this is now my last change as cannot make anymore on illustrator

Cheers, Champs

P Gizzle · Post by **P Gizzle** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:37 pm

im gonna play the role of annoying little sibling here: when do we get to play it? huh? :wink:

happysadfun · Post by **happysadfun** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:54 pm

reverend_kyle wrote:
gavin_sidhu wrote:
reverend_kyle wrote:
happysadfun wrote:
gavin_sidhu wrote:
reverend_kyle wrote:I think holding pinkies should be worth 2 no matter what.. but they be attacked from every territory.. that would make for interesting strategy.
Too big an advantage if you started with both of them.
Exactly. You would then be beaten to a pulp by anyone, because everyone can attack you. It works!

Gavin isnt smart.. the only way you'd even likely get an advantage was if you also went first... and if so its only a 2 army advantage.. the dice could easily screw you out of one.
The dice could also screw your opponents out of taking the pinks of you. A bonus of 2 men is equivelant to the bonus of Australia and South America, nothing to be sneered at, having a bonus like that at the beginning of the game doesnt increase playability. Also, i didnt calculate it but im pretty sure the chances of getting both wouldnt be that tiny, its happened to me before on Discworld, and ive only played that map twice. In a team game you are likely to hold the pinkies if you got them in the beginning.

I've never seen someone win carrying a 2 pt continent from the start........

I have. But they were smashed to bits and never got to take the bonus.

CHAMPOS · Post by **CHAMPOS** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:04 pm

given the result of the poll i reckon one further change to the map - baghdad will also have a border with kublai - this makes the islamic emirates (top of the poll) a bit harder

other than that no more changes are planned

any final views?

how do you get a map FINAL FORGED?

CHAMPOS

Nous-irons · Post by **Nous-irons** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:21 pm

The map is too much centred on Europe IMO. Often Central Asia seems to be ignored, yet mind you one of the reasons for fighting for the Holy Lands was access to the Silk Road.

Also, the northern Germanic tribes had been Christianised by this point ...

Marvaddin · Post by **Marvaddin** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:53 pm

Remember, that would make the Emirates more difficult to hold, too... Is this change really necessary?

CHAMPOS · Post by **CHAMPOS** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:40 pm

yea, your right

map stays as is then

champos

CHAMPOS · Post by **CHAMPOS** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:03 am

had a bit of a rethink

main change is removing tunis - papal border

any comments?

edmundomcpot · Post by **edmundomcpot** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:27 am

looking good..one thing i would say is the sea..without it it looks incomplete...yet at the same time it makes it look unique

Marvaddin · Post by **Marvaddin** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 3:45 pm

I dislike the connection removal, unless you can explain your point. Even why Emirates is not an easy region, but was connected to both as compensation.
Remove a country from Orthodox is ok, since we still have 36.
New borders of Emirates near Holy Lands is ok.
About Mongul tribes, I think its very powerfull again... could use the old one.
I like very much you added a bonus for holding both pink territories.
I would just put a sea, and consider it finished.

reverend_kyle · Post by **reverend_kyle** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:07 pm

I hate the silver border.

AndyDufresne · Post by **AndyDufresne** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:09 pm

I'd look into what marv said about the various areas...

And as for border color...perhaps a simple black would be nice...and give the sea a 'light gray' or 'light blue gray' tint, to help look like that part is actually finished.

--Andy

Holy Wars - The Crusades - 13th Century

which continent (colour) would you go for first??

the crusades 1220ad (final forge)

BAGHDAD