Would you abort a down syndrome fetus?

[Napoleon Ier]

^^At birth, fair point. The Nazis were the ones that immediatly came to mind, by the Greeks you refer more particularly to the Spartans.
Hippocrates, interestingly, opposed abortion.

How do you manage to completely invalidate everything you say so quickly?
Barely 3 posts in the debate from you and you start making comparisons to nazis already.

"You know who else had a big military? NAZIS! So no country should have a military."

I am arguing from what may appear to be a logical fallacy, but the point I am striving to make is that totalitarian states tend to favour abortion, indeed force it upon people (as some cases exist even today of doctors forcing abortions on unwilling patients), so as to oppose the notion that is held by some libertarians, namely that "pro-choice on everything" is the position to take, when of course the inability of one party to make a choice of greater value (life is a more important right than that to disposeof one's body as one wishes) is ignored.

Simple trends observed and analysed....not very persuasive granted, but a point nonetheless. Considering that interests of a society supersese those of a disabled kid to live is outrageous and inherently socialist.

[Napoleon Ier]

but teh woman haz teh right to killz teh embryo at 8 months 3 weeks!!!!!!111

Was that the sound of the point going over your head again?

No, it was the sound of your ass producing another poorly written post.

[Snorri1234]

I am arguing from what may appear to be a logical fallacy, but the point I am striving to make is that totalitarian states tend to favour abortion, indeed force it upon people (as some cases exist even today of doctors forcing abortions on unwilling patients), so as to oppose the notion that is held by some libertarians, namely that "pro-choice on everything" is the position to take, when of course the inability of one party to make a choice of greater value (life is a more important right than that to disposeof one's body as one wishes) is ignored.

I don't see your actual point anywhere though.


Sure totalitarian states have forced abortion on people in some cases (, btw you also fail to point out that aborting a healthy child wasn't allowed in the same states,) but I must've missed the memo were any pro-choice advocate was arguing for mandatory abortions.

Maybe it's just me, but invoking Godwin's law right of the bat isn't a good idea no matter what you're trying to prove.

[Fieryo]

tick-tack-toe three posts in a row.

[Snorri1234]

but teh woman haz teh right to killz teh embryo at 8 months 3 weeks!!!!!!111

Was that the sound of the point going over your head again?

No, it was the sound of your ass producing another poorly written post.

It was your poorly written post, though.

The original point Symmetry made was that Down-syndrom does not mean the child will have a horrible life. It had absolutely nothing to do with whether abortion should be allowed or not.

[Napoleon Ier]

Snorri 1234 wrote :

Maybe it's just me, but invoking Godwin's law right of the bat isn't a good idea no matter what you're trying to prove.

Fair enough. Note the point, if irrelevant to a socialist like you, that libertarianism isn't correlated with abortion though.

Snorri 1234 wrote :

I must've missed the memo were any pro-choice advocate was arguing for mandatory abortions.

[url]
http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=60399
[/url]

[Snorri1234]

http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=60399

Wtf? I'm not really suprised this is Italy though, italians are just fucking weird.

But I truly not support that decision. The girl should have the ultimate choice, though I wonder what 13 year old would be so crazy to have sex and want the child anyway. "We have to take a step back and ask ourselves how this could have happened to a 13 year old girl." is something I fully agree with.

Parents ofcourse can decide what is best for their children in most cases, but this certainly isn't one.

[Napoleon Ier]

http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=60399

Wtf? I'm not really suprised this is Italy though, italians are just fucking weird.

But I truly not support that decision. The girl should have the ultimate choice, though I wonder what 13 year old would be so crazy to have sex and want the child anyway. "We have to take a step back and ask ourselves how this could have happened to a 13 year old girl." is something I fully agree with.

Parents ofcourse can decide what is best for their children in most cases, but this certainly isn't one.

Good

Not entirely vegetabelized....

[heavycola]

I'm not a abortionist.

But if I was, then yes, because then Fetus's would basicly be money.

Yeah, abortionists think of fetus' as money....

Ironic though this statemen was, it's actually very very true....

This is a ridiculous thing to say, even from someone who takes advice on birth control from an 80-year old male virgin.
How on earth would you know? How many 'abortionists' do you know?

Brilliant. Attack me cos I'm the nasty Catholic. Grimy papist scum! burn 'em I say! Not that its your fault, you've been classically conditioned by the media....not, again to say you're an idiot, just as i say, psychologically conditioned.

No, I have come to the conclusion that catholicism is even more ridiculous than most religious beliefs all by myself! Aren't I clever?

How many abortionnists do I know? Quite a few, from my Christian contacts, who revulsed at the whole thing quit and confirm that profit played a large part in the abortion industry.

I don't believe you.

"$590 million are spent each year on first trimester abortions and $393 million are spent on late term abortions. That means that each year in the U.S., the abortion industry brings in approximately $983 million through their abortion services alone. If you add in the $273 million that Planned Parenthood (America's largest abortion provider) receives annually in government grants and contracts, the annual dollar amount moves well past 1 billion.

I live in a country with free healthcare, as do you. Forgive me if i thought that at least some of your abortionist friends might live nearby.
But you are talking about the US, in which case it's not just abortions but every kind of operation and medical procedure that causes dollar bill signs to light up in the eyes of evil, money-grabbing doctors.

[Napoleon Ier]

heavycola wrote :

Brilliant. Attack me cos I'm the nasty Catholic. Grimy papist scum! burn 'em I say! Not that its your fault, you've been classically conditioned by the media....not, again to say you're an idiot, just as i say, psychologically conditioned.

No, I have come to the conclusion that catholicism is even more ridiculous than most religious beliefs all by myself! Aren't I clever?

I came to the conclusion the Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of Rome is the One True Church. All on my own

heavycola wrote :

How many abortionnists do I know? Quite a few, from my Christian contacts, who revulsed at the whole thing quit and confirm that profit played a large part in the abortion industry.

I don't believe you.

Of course....why did you even bother to ask?

"$590 million are spent each year on first trimester abortions and $393 million are spent on late term abortions. That means that each year in the U.S., the abortion industry brings in approximately $983 million through their abortion services alone. If you add in the $273 million that Planned Parenthood (America's largest abortion provider) receives annually in government grants and contracts, the annual dollar amount moves well past 1 billion."

heavycola wrote :

I live in a country with free healthcare, as do you. Forgive me if i thought that at least some of your abortionist friends might live nearby.
But you are talking about the US, in which case it's not just abortions but every kind of operation and medical procedure that causes dollar bill signs to light up in the eyes of evil, money-grabbing doctors.

Wow there! And the wages of the doctors, the suppliers of the specialized tools, the training, the independant providers...? There s an abortion industry, and it thrives, often in the US for example in the hand of rather dodgy men of some disrepute, having emerged from the illegal "backstreet" abortion clinics...

[Snorri1234]

Wow there! And the wages of the doctors, the suppliers of the specialized tools, the training, the independant providers...? There s an abortion industry, and it thrives, often in the US for example in the hand of rather dodgy men of some disrepute, having emerged from the illegal "backstreet" abortion clinics...

1.) The people who actually get abortions don't do it for the money.
2.) The wages of most doctors don't depend on how many abortions they do. (Though maybe in the US.)
3.) I fail to see how this justifies your claim that a fetus is basically the same as money. If you're talking about big bussiness' then I can see that, but that holds true for everything. From the heart-operation for your grandpa to the painkillers you take for your back, the industry tries to get money out of it.

[heavycola]

heavycola wrote :

Brilliant. Attack me cos I'm the nasty Catholic. Grimy papist scum! burn 'em I say! Not that its your fault, you've been classically conditioned by the media....not, again to say you're an idiot, just as i say, psychologically conditioned.

No, I have come to the conclusion that catholicism is even more ridiculous than most religious beliefs all by myself! Aren't I clever?

I came to the conclusion the Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of Rome is the One True Church. All on my own

heavycola wrote :

How many abortionnists do I know? Quite a few, from my Christian contacts, who revulsed at the whole thing quit and confirm that profit played a large part in the abortion industry.

I don't believe you.

Of course....why did you even bother to ask?

"$590 million are spent each year on first trimester abortions and $393 million are spent on late term abortions. That means that each year in the U.S., the abortion industry brings in approximately $983 million through their abortion services alone. If you add in the $273 million that Planned Parenthood (America's largest abortion provider) receives annually in government grants and contracts, the annual dollar amount moves well past 1 billion."

heavycola wrote :

I live in a country with free healthcare, as do you. Forgive me if i thought that at least some of your abortionist friends might live nearby.
But you are talking about the US, in which case it's not just abortions but every kind of operation and medical procedure that causes dollar bill signs to light up in the eyes of evil, money-grabbing doctors.

Wow there! And the wages of the doctors, the suppliers of the specialized tools, the training, the independant providers...? There s an abortion industry, and it thrives, often in the US for example in the hand of rather dodgy men of some disrepute, having emerged from the illegal "backstreet" abortion clinics...

Pure supposition. How many doctors havbe you spoken to? how many of disrepute? how did you know they were of disrepute?

You talk about an 'abortion industry' as if it were separate from the transplant industry or the pharmaceutical industry. It isn't, unless you have an axe to grind. You spout this nonsense just after proclaiming catholicism to be The Truth...




Btw i didn't insult you. You take your stance on birth control from a 70-something virgin man. That is simply the truth of it.

[Napoleon Ier]

^^I don't need to know abortion doctors to condemn them. How many SS officers do you know?
Furthermore, yes, I have an axe to grind, the abortion lobbies twisted public opinion to make it see abortion was right and legalise itso that they could murder for profit. I think murder for profit is deeply wrong. Yourself?
As for my stance on birthcontrol, it is arrived at through my own reasoning. That's the beauty of Catholicism. There's the essential theology, then you're free to believe without having to constantly be buried in the Bible trying to exactly reference yourself from it.

[got tonkaed]

^^I don't need to know abortion doctors to condemn them. How many SS officers do you know?
Furthermore, yes, I have an axe to grind, the abortion lobbies twisted public opinion to make it see abortion was right and legalise itso that they could murder for profit. I think murder for profit is deeply wrong. Yourself?

i dont think for one second the abortion lobbies started from individuals looking to make money.

I have just as little doubt that those people ended up hopping aboard the bandwagon and probably are on their still to this day. Call it a hunch, but probably the individuals who were in serious health risk and the friends and families of those who had died because of illegal abortions were probably the bulk of the lobbies that worked to create change.

[Snorri1234]

^^I don't need to know abortion doctors to condemn them. How many SS officers do you know?

You don't need to know them to condemn them for something you think is wrong based on your faith, no. But you do need to prove your assertion that many of them are of disrepute.

And damn, can't you make more than 5 posts without invoking the Godwin Law?

Furthermore, yes, I have an axe to grind, the abortion lobbies twisted public opinion to make it see abortion was right and legalise itso that they could murder for profit.

The whole problem with this argument is that you have no proof for it. That and it makes no sense whatsoever, as the abortion lobbies generally aren't even fucking part of the coporations who supposedly profit from it so much.

[Neoteny]

^^I don't need to know abortion doctors to condemn them. How many SS officers do you know?
Furthermore, yes, I have an axe to grind, the abortion lobbies twisted public opinion to make it see abortion was right and legalise itso that they could murder for profit. I think murder for profit is deeply wrong. Yourself?

i dont think for one second the abortion lobbies started from individuals looking to make money.

I have just as little doubt that those people ended up hopping aboard the bandwagon and probably are on their still to this day. Call it a hunch, but probably the individuals who were in serious health risk and the friends and families of those who had died because of illegal abortions were probably the bulk of the lobbies that worked to create change.

The risks associated with illegal abortions are my primary reason for supporting abortion rights. The coat hanger image should be enough to make anyone think that something is wrong with that picture.

[Napoleon Ier]

^^I don't need to know abortion doctors to condemn them. How many SS officers do you know?

You don't need to know them to condemn them for something you think is wrong based on your faith, no. But you do need to prove your assertion that many of them are of disrepute.

And damn, can't you make more than 5 posts without invoking the Godwin Law?

[/quote]

Except I didn't use it, I haven't compared anyone to Nazis. Hevn't you already been told to readn and think before you post?

Snorri1234 wrote :

Furthermore, yes, I have an axe to grind, the abortion lobbies twisted public opinion to make it see abortion was right and legalise itso that they could murder for profit.

The whole problem with this argument is that you have no proof for it. That and it makes no sense whatsoever, as the abortion lobbies generally aren't even fucking part of the coporations who supposedly profit from it so much.

[url]
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=30098[/url]

[Snorri1234]

^^I don't need to know abortion doctors to condemn them. How many SS officers do you know?

You don't need to know them to condemn them for something you think is wrong based on your faith, no. But you do need to prove your assertion that many of them are of disrepute.



And damn, can't you make more than 5 posts without invoking the Godwin Law?

Except I didn't use it, I haven't compared anyone to Nazis. Hevn't you already been told to readn and think before you post?

Aren't SS officers Nazis?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30098

Fix the url.

Wow. That site is so biased it isn't even funny anymore. It's also just plain crazy judging from the commentaries and highlights on the right.....

[unriggable]

2.) The wages of most doctors don't depend on how many abortions they do. (Though maybe in the US.)

Like many employees of mainstream medical companies, abortion doctors save money every operation they don't do, and keep some of it.

[Napoleon Ier]

^^I don't need to know abortion doctors to condemn them. How many SS officers do you know?

You don't need to know them to condemn them for something you think is wrong based on your faith, no. But you do need to prove your assertion that many of them are of disrepute.



And damn, can't you make more than 5 posts without invoking the Godwin Law?

Except I didn't use it, I haven't compared anyone to Nazis. Hevn't you already been told to readn and think before you post?

Aren't SS officers Nazis?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30098

Fix the url.

Yes, they are. I wasn't comparing anyone to them though. I was making an argument by analogy.

"Fix the URL" is not an argument. Don't hypocritically accuse me of trying to divert attention from points, and get some arguments of yor own.

[Snorri1234]

Yes, they are. I wasn't comparing anyone to them though. I was making an argument by analogy.

Don't bullshit me. You were comparing them, as you could easily have chosen any other group of amoral people.
Do you seriously believe that helped your argument?

"Fix the URL" is not an argument. Don't hypocritically accuse me of trying to divert attention from points, and get some arguments of yor own.

No dipshit, I meant you need to learn how to properly include url's (and quote btw).

[got tonkaed]

now obviously i cant comment to some of the accuracy of his statements...but the man and the source you use could very easily both be construed to have a bit of an axe to grind.

the website itself, claiming it is the largest growing independent news site, is seemingly through even the most superficial of glances, a bit of a home to some conspiracy rhetoric. Now this alone of course does not mean the article is truthful or whatever, but it bears mentioning.

Also, the man in question, is currently not at all identified with the pro-choice movement and is fact a member of a conservative sect of catholicsm. It certainly brings into question what affect such a landmark change in thinking and in behavior, if one notes his works published may have on what he is reporting and in his views.

[Snorri1234]

now obviously i cant comment to some of the accuracy of his statements...but the man and the source you use could very easily both be construed to have a bit of an axe to grind.

the website itself, claiming it is the largest growing independent news site, is seemingly through even the most superficial of glances, a bit of a home to some conspiracy rhetoric. Now this alone of course does not mean the article is truthful or whatever, but it bears mentioning.

Also, the man in question, is currently not at all identified with the pro-choice movement and is fact a member of a conservative sect of catholicsm. It certainly brings into question what affect such a landmark change in thinking and in behavior, if one notes his works published may have on what he is reporting and in his views.

Why Obama and other democrats should be questioned on their faith.
Love that one.
Why better trade with Europe is a step towards a world government.
Does Jay get his news from here?
Homosexuals get diseases all the time.
Wow.

Enter contest, debunk 'global warming,' win big.
Riiiiight.

[unriggable]

Napoleon, what kinds of websites do you look at?

[Napoleon Ier]

Yes, they are. I wasn't comparing anyone to them though. I was making an argument by analogy.

Don't bullshit me. You were comparing them, as you could easily have chosen any other group of amoral people.
Do you seriously believe that helped your argument?

I wasn't comparing you unmitigated cretin, I was saying you don't need to know abortionnists to condemn them, like you don't to know Klansmen or Nazis to condemn them.

But hey, if you want, sure, let's compare those three :

"Darky niggers ain't humans, dirty yids ain't human, inhuman-clump-o-cells-fetus (most derogatory of all three) ain't human" : same ignotant bullshit, different people, different times.

Good night snorarse.