Conquer Club

let's kick this pig.

i'll start off by saying that reparations are obviously the moral and ethical thing to do, and there is ample precedence for it in american law. a tort has been committed and the party who committed it (namely the american government) owes a debt. the wronged parties are dead, so that debt is owed to their next of kin -- the descendants of american slaves.

the amount of reparations owed and how to pay them and who exactly to pay them to are all serious issues that will need to be worked out, but no hurdles to the practical implementation of reparations can change the basic fact that they are owed and should be paid.

go fucking fist yourself... we have no fucking money for this shit. Slaves were given fucking land and the great American dream... fucking opportunity.

Moral and ethical for those who are responsible. The problem today is that far too many people who's ancestors are not responsible would be asked to pay.

At the time slavery happened, it was the societal norm, not just in the US, but in most of Africa. None of that justifies it, but who, exactly is to pay? The africans who first conquered and sold other peoples? The Europeans who got wealthy off the trade while claiming ignorance of the result? The Americans who bought and sold people? What of those who are descended from the guilty?

Also, as was mentioned in another thread, are the people here, today, better off or worse off those those in Africa? In many cases, they are actually better off... in many cases, Particularly for women, better off by far. That in no way, shape or form justifies slavery, but it does beg the question whether, at this point, reparations are really due.

Also, though slavery is often attributed strictly to blacks, in fact people of all races were enslaved. Whites were bondservants. They had definite advantage over others in that they were more often able to gain freedom and once free, they became like any other settler or colonists. Blacks could gain freedom, but were never "just like anyone else". However, Chinese, Mexicans, etc and certainly Native Americans were all enslaved.

If anyone is owed reparations, I would say it is not the blacks, it is native americans.

er... um... I mean...
Sir... don't you think that haven been given their freedom, land grants and the opportunity to make a future for themselves that reparations have already been made? Also, I seriously doubt that we can afford to shell out any monies, after the grand ass fucking that this fucking company has been rendered by fucking multi national corporations... fucking white devils that they are!!!!

silent wind wrote:er... um... I mean...
Sir... don't you think that haven been given their freedom, land grants and the opportunity to make a future for themselves that reparations have already been made? Also, I seriously doubt that we can afford to shell out any monies, after the grand ass fucking that this fucking company has been rendered by fucking multi national corporations... fucking white devils that they are!!!!

They were not given land grants. Freedom was taken from them and could be said to be a gift given back. That said, I don't believe reparations are owed.

Still, you might get more of an audiance if you at least voiced your disaproval in a more moderate manner.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

silent wind wrote:er... um... I mean...
Sir... don't you think that haven been given their freedom, land grants and the opportunity to make a future for themselves that reparations have already been made? Also, I seriously doubt that we can afford to shell out any monies, after the grand ass fucking that this fucking company has been rendered by fucking multi national corporations... fucking white devils that they are!!!!

They were not given land grants. Freedom was taken from them and could be said to be a gift given back. That said, I don't believe reparations are owed.

Still, you might get more of an audiance if you at least voiced your disaproval in a more moderate manner.

thanks for the goddamn advice.

silent wind wrote:er... um... I mean...
Sir... don't you think that haven been given their freedom, land grants and the opportunity to make a future for themselves

YOu say it like freedom is an honor that you have to have given to you and not a right of living in this country.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

silent wind wrote:er... um... I mean...
Sir... don't you think that haven been given their freedom, land grants and the opportunity to make a future for themselves that reparations have already been made? Also, I seriously doubt that we can afford to shell out any monies, after the grand ass fucking that this fucking company has been rendered by fucking multi national corporations... fucking white devils that they are!!!!

They were not given land grants. Freedom was taken from them and could be said to be a gift given back. That said, I don't believe reparations are owed.

Still, you might get more of an audiance if you at least voiced your disaproval in a more moderate manner.

Actually, during Reconstruction (early years at least) the former slaves were given land grants. Didn't really help in the long run, but they were given.

And I agree with you on the reparations part. No one today can be held responsible for the actions of their ancestors, especially of something that ended 145 years ago.

muy_thaiguy wrote:Actually, during Reconstruction (early years at least) the former slaves were given land grants. Didn't really help in the long run, but they were given.

My understanding is that it was pretty minimal and that, even so, much was taken back after reconstruction.

.. hardly the "40 acres and a mule" promised once upon a time, anyway.

strike wolf wrote:

silent wind wrote:er... um... I mean...
Sir... don't you think that haven been given their freedom, land grants and the opportunity to make a future for themselves

YOu say it like freedom is an honor that you have to have given to you and not a right of living in this country.

Sir, I declare to you from the depths of my heart, as cold and as black as it is... freedom is not as much a right as it is a reward for those brave enough to fight for it. You have to stand up and make your way on your own two feet. Once you start requiring of others to make your way for you, you lose your freedom.

No sir, as chiche as it sounds... freedom isn't free.







f*ck

If you support reparations, then you support the notion that two wrongs make a right, an eye for an eye philosophy, etc.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Moral and ethical for those who are responsible. The problem today is that far too many people who's ancestors are not responsible would be asked to pay.

At the time slavery happened, it was the societal norm, not just in the US, but in most of Africa. None of that justifies it, but who, exactly is to pay? The africans who first conquered and sold other peoples? The Europeans who got wealthy off the trade while claiming ignorance of the result? The Americans who bought and sold people? What of those who are descended from the guilty?

Also, as was mentioned in another thread, are the people here, today, better off or worse off those those in Africa? In many cases, they are actually better off... in many cases, Particularly for women, better off by far. That in no way, shape or form justifies slavery, but it does beg the question whether, at this point, reparations are really due.

Also, though slavery is often attributed strictly to blacks, in fact people of all races were enslaved. Whites were bondservants. They had definite advantage over others in that they were more often able to gain freedom and once free, they became like any other settler or colonists. Blacks could gain freedom, but were never "just like anyone else". However, Chinese, Mexicans, etc and certainly Native Americans were all enslaved.

If anyone is owed reparations, I would say it is not the blacks, it is native americans.

QFT

john9blue wrote:If you support reparations, then you support the notion that two wrongs make a right, an eye for an eye philosophy, etc.

hmmm... I think that if justice calls for an eye for an eye... that isn't a bad deterrent for eye poking. But the fact that slavery was not illegal at the time... I don't see how you can justify posing a penalty for it... especially on the governing body of several generations removed from it.

muy_thaiguy wrote:And I agree with you on the reparations part. No one today can be held responsible for the actions of their ancestors, especially of something that ended 145 years ago.

i do not expect the average white person to be "held responsible" (even if they have been the primary beneficiaries of the slaver oligarchy that existed until 1865 as well as the systemic bias that still exists against descendants of slaves). but the government as an institution can certainly be held responsible for allowing, even condoning, the institution of slavery in america. it is the government that would pay reparations, after all.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Moral and ethical for those who are responsible. The problem today is that far too many people who's ancestors are not responsible would be asked to pay.

the us government would pay.

At the time slavery happened, it was the societal norm, not just in the US, but in most of Africa. None of that justifies it, but who, exactly is to pay? The africans who first conquered and sold other peoples? The Europeans who got wealthy off the trade while claiming ignorance of the result? The Americans who bought and sold people? What of those who are descended from the guilty?

see above

Also, as was mentioned in another thread, are the people here, today, better off or worse off those those in Africa? In many cases, they are actually better off... in many cases, Particularly for women, better off by far. That in no way, shape or form justifies slavery, but it does beg the question whether, at this point, reparations are really due.

oh my god. if you mug a black dude you don't get off because the black guy is "better off" living here than in america. a wrong has been committed, and it is incumbent upon us to right it.

this is not to mention that the slave trade and other european activities in africa over the course of the past five centuries are the sole reason why africans living in america are "better off" than the africans in africa. WE fucked africa up. and now you want to use the tragedy of billions to justify the tragedy of millions, when the blood from both is pretty squarely on our collective hands. that is fucking disgusting.

Also, though slavery is often attributed strictly to blacks, in fact people of all races were enslaved. Whites were bondservants. They had definite advantage over others in that they were more often able to gain freedom and once free, they became like any other settler or colonists. Blacks could gain freedom, but were never "just like anyone else". However, Chinese, Mexicans, etc and certainly Native Americans were all enslaved.

we owe reparations to the descendants of all people who were enslaved, although i would say not for indentured servitude, which while a horrible institution, did not have the same sort of long-lasting effects that slavery did. the descendants of white slaves have also had their reparations in the form of the aforementioned systemic bias that exists in favor of all white people.

If anyone is owed reparations, I would say it is not the blacks, it is native americans.

we pay native americans tons of money already. we owe them a lot of land which rightfully belongs to them, too, but that's an issue for another day.

john9blue wrote:If you support reparations, then you support the notion that two wrongs make a right, an eye for an eye philosophy, etc.

i like how you apparently think shelling out a pittance for black people is the same thing as three motherfucking centuries of slavery. god you have to be the dumbest poster here.

My point stands. Do two wrongs make a right, especially now that the odds of repeating our past mistakes are virtually zero, and blacks have nearly the same opportunity as whites? Even the slight racism that persists today should be corrected by other means than "here's a few bucks, sorry about your ancestors"... It's ridiculous.

SultanOfSurreal wrote:

john9blue wrote:If you support reparations, then you support the notion that two wrongs make a right, an eye for an eye philosophy, etc.

i like how you apparently think shelling out a pittance for black people is the same thing as three motherfucking centuries of slavery. god you have to be the dumbest poster here.

Maybe the Africans that sold them to the European slavers should pay out...

The last time that any of my family were involved in slavery was probably when some of my anglo-saxon ancestors enslaved some of my celtic ancestors in the 6th century.

jonesthecurl wrote:The last time that any of my family were involved in slavery was probably when some of my anglo-saxon ancestors enslaved some of my celtic ancestors in the 6th century.

oreally... give me twenty fuckin bucks then buddy... I'm Irish!

Some irish owned welsh slaves at times, y'know. Next pint's on you.

Ah the magical government will pay for it. So we the citizens wouldn't have to. I understand now...

john9blue wrote:My point stands. Do two wrongs make a right,

no, and reparations are not wrong

especially now that the odds of repeating our past mistakes are virtually zero,

"totes sorry for four centuries of forced labor, murder, rape, and all that other stuff. won't happen again! we cool?"

and blacks have nearly the same opportunity as whites?

hahahahahaha

Even the slight racism that persists today

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

should be corrected by other means than "here's a few bucks, sorry about your ancestors"... It's ridiculous.

I'm thinking at least about $100,000 per family. It's no panacea for sure, but it will definitely create a sizable black middle class, inject much-needed vigor into black communities, help black people become more involved in our society's political and social processes, and generally increase the self-determination of these people who for so long have been oppressed. it is definitely a better alternative to a patronizing and blatantly self-serving "oh geeze, sorry we rigged the game in our favor guys, you'll just have to deal"

rockfist wrote:Ah the magical government will pay for it. So we the citizens wouldn't have to. I understand now...

the government prints all the money you possess. you give some back to them for the privilege of living here and they invest it in various expenditures.

look, it's not my fault capitalism is a giant castle in the sky based on a series of meaningless abstractions. but as long as we are functioning within that framework, we may as well do our best to ensure everyone has an equal chance to succeed. to that end, reparations are the best option.

I'll take your laughter as concession.

Reparations is taking money from one person by force and giving it to another. That's stealing. I hesitate to say it's "wrong" because it may ultimately benefit society, but it helps to put it in perspective like that and see it for what it is- robbery.

I've got a question now, who exactly is keeping black people from achieving their full potential?