ObamaCare - exchanges ,report your states options!

[PLAYER57832]

Since we know the Democrats don't have a bone in their body that would actually listen to their constituents, .

If conservatives truly had the majority of opinion, as you wish to believe, Democrats would not HAVE THE MAJORITY.

[Nobunaga]

Bullet Point: ...
... {removed by Trephining to shorten quoted post text}
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Bullet Point:
Question: Why would those who'd get paid be for a system that provides insurance or care for all, and those "nice ol' insurance companies" be against? Could it be that insurance is afraid they'll get a smaller piece of the pie? Isn't health care about HEALTH, not INSURANCE profits?
Answer: No, currently in America, "health care" is about Insurance Profits; but hopefully that will soon change so that health care becomes, as it should be, about Health.

I have a question: What is the average health insurance company profit margin? (in % terms)

... 3 to 3.3%. Pure evil, obviously.

...

[PLAYER57832]

Bullet Point: ...
... {removed by Trephining to shorten quoted post text}
...
Bullet Point:
Question: Why would those who'd get paid be for a system that provides insurance or care for all, and those "nice ol' insurance companies" be against? Could it be that insurance is afraid they'll get a smaller piece of the pie? Isn't health care about HEALTH, not INSURANCE profits?
Answer: No, currently in America, "health care" is about Insurance Profits; but hopefully that will soon change so that health care becomes, as it should be, about Health.

I have a question: What is the average health insurance company profit margin? (in % terms)

... 3 to 3.3%. Pure evil, obviously.

...

Actually, Humana took a 7.1 profit in 2009. Anthem Blue Cross took a profit of 7.3 percent.

Further, they took a 56% increase and gave their CEOs very nice bonuses right when the economy was tanking.
At the same time, the amount these companies paid toward actual health care was down by 3%-5%, money that instead went to hefty administration costs.

AND, the way they keep these profits is by denying claim after claim, excluding more and more sick people and insuring mostly healthy people.
link: http://rawstory.com/2010/02/top-health- ... ains-2009/

(this is just the first one, I will post more)

A couple of fact check reports seem to dispute this. What I find interesting is that each of them looks to earlier years (citing increases of 2-3%) and not the above year in question. Also, they, too show increases, just not quite as much as given above. They don't tackle the reduced medical payments at all.

ON the one hand, these seem like low percentages. In one article, for example, they compare the profits to companies like Hersheys that they say make about a 6% profit. However, I happen to know that many other industries, like timber for example, feel lucky to get a 1% profit margin on a 20 year investment. These were yearly profits. Further, those other articles don't truly address WHY the rates increase. In one case, they blame it on the method of collecting payments -- that the percentage showed the payments collected initially and not the yearly pay-outs.

Bottom line... these companies ARE dumping patients (= more left to taxpayers) and ARE playing pretty loose and fast with their policies (going back and cancelling policies sometimes years later, for pretty trivial reasons.. like forgetting that you had achne at one point).

EDIT:
More links.. most of these show that the original post was closer to the real truth than the later two, and explains why.
http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2009/ ... uch-money/

http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/ins ... index.html

This one more or less agrees with the 3%, but ALSO shows more on where the real problems are in our current system.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-k ... indus.html

[thegreekdog]

Bullet Point: More than 2/3 of the American GNP (Gross National Product) is healthcare, currently.
Bullet Point: Americans are one of the LEAST healthiest nations, despite currently spending about ten times as much for health care (someone has to line insurance bigwigs' pockets in our current system) as other systems
Bullet Point: Frequently in a lawsuit, our only option, the money goes to attorneys, NOT to the medical debt.
Bullet Point: Hospital and doctors' insurance costs rise to pay for the uninsured.
Bullet Point: Insurance costs are based on volume. More insureds would mean more volume.
Bullet Point: Giving everyone access to health care would increase volume, lower insurance costs, reduce the amount per capita spent on healthcare, increase national health.
Bullet Point: America already has some "socialized medicine" for children, unwed mothers, disabled (medicaid) and senior citizens (medicare).
Bullet Point: America already has other socialized programs, one is in education (my taxes pay for someone else's kids to get an education).
Bullet Point: The government has an obligation to protect its people. While healthcare itself has been kept outside of that obligation, there are factors in which the government is already involved. The FDA; the CDC; and with viral terrorism threats on the rise, it only makes sense for everyone to be able to see a doctor.
Bullet Point: Doctors and nurses are primarily FOR national health care.
Bullet Point: Insurance agents and owners are primarily AGAINST national health care.
Bullet Point: The government regulates cost to an extent on another "national need" - Oil.
Bullet Point: The government steps in, in crisis situations, to prohibit "price gouging" - why should insurance for medical care be exempt from that prohibition against price gouging?

Question: Why would those who'd get paid be for a system that provides insurance or care for all, and those "nice ol' insurance companies" be against? Could it be that insurance is afraid they'll get a smaller piece of the pie? Isn't health care about HEALTH, not INSURANCE profits?
Answer: No, currently in America, "health care" is about Insurance Profits; but hopefully that will soon change so that health care becomes, as it should be, about Health.

Apart from sources, just a couple of questions/points:

(1) Why is the US the least healthiest nation?
(2) Explain to me how money goes to attorneys, not to the plaintiffs, in medical malpractice cases
(3) How is public education working out for you? Does public education solve education problems? Does public education exacerbate education problems? Do you know what I'm getting at here?
(4) Doctors and nurses are NOT for public health care. Please ignore the doctors that the president trots to the podium every time he speaks.
(5) Insurance companies are not for UNIVERSAL healthcare. They are absolutely FOR the current plan.
(6) The government should not and does not step in for price gouging.

I'm not sure where you're getting your bullet points from, but they are mostly incorrect. Not only are they incorrect, but most of them having nothing to do with the current bill, which makes your post, in my humble opinion, completely worthless.

[Trephining]

I have a question: What is the average health insurance company profit margin? (in % terms)

... 3 to 3.3%. Pure evil, obviously.

...

Actually, Humana took a 7.1 profit in 2009. Anthem Blue Cross took a profit of 7.3 percent.

Further, they took a 56% increase and gave their CEOs very nice bonuses right when the economy was tanking.
At the same time, the amount these companies paid toward actual health care was down by 3%-5%, money that instead went to hefty administration costs.

AND, the way they keep these profits is by denying claim after claim, excluding more and more sick people and insuring mostly healthy people.
link: http://rawstory.com/2010/02/top-health- ... ains-2009/

(this is just the first one, I will post more)

So you just proved that you aren't willing to answer a question about the topic. I ask about the average and you cherrypick an outlier.

Nobunaga was right in there. Most insurance companies price to earn a 2.5%-5% profit. I have seen insurance company rate filings that price for 0.5%-1% as well, but I am not going to cherrypick on my point.

If you removed ALL profits and insurance administration costs, then all health insurance could be 10-20 percent cheaper. That would buy us 2 years' time in terms of the current touted "crisis", because after two more years of medical claims/cost increase, we would be right back where we were, with no actual solution.

[Trephining]

I wonder how many participating in the various threads on health care reform have actually read any of the currently pending bills, or at least summaries of the various parts of them.

[Neoteny]

Since it took me three months to explain the grandfather clause of the original bill to you people (ITS A THOUSAND PAGES!!:?!?!), I said f*ck this shit.

It doesn't matter if we've read the bill or not, conservatives are going to pick at nothing, blow it out of proportion, and then once it's explained to them, declare that the bill is too long.

Or were you going to go a different route?

[PLAYER57832]

I have a question: What is the average health insurance company profit margin? (in % terms)

... 3 to 3.3%. Pure evil, obviously.

...

Actually, Humana took a 7.1 profit in 2009. Anthem Blue Cross took a profit of 7.3 percent.

Further, they took a 56% increase and gave their CEOs very nice bonuses right when the economy was tanking.
At the same time, the amount these companies paid toward actual health care was down by 3%-5%, money that instead went to hefty administration costs.

AND, the way they keep these profits is by denying claim after claim, excluding more and more sick people and insuring mostly healthy people.
link: http://rawstory.com/2010/02/top-health- ... ains-2009/

(this is just the first one, I will post more)

So you just proved that you aren't willing to answer a question about the topic. I ask about the average and you cherrypick an outlier.

#1, I did say that was just the first quote, though I changed it when you were posting this.

#2, given that those 2 companies along represent far more than half it's hardly "cherry picking"(I am looking for exact figures, but I saw references in the past saying that Blue Cross alone represented 80% of insured americans)

Nobunaga was right in there. Most insurance companies price to earn a 2.5%-5% profit. I have seen insurance company rate filings that price for 0.5%-1% as well, but I am not going to cherrypick on my point.

If you removed ALL profits and insurance administration costs, then all health insurance could be 10-20 percent cheaper. That would buy us 2 years' time in terms of the current touted "crisis", because after two more years of medical claims/cost increase, we would be right back where we were, with no actual solution.

I have posted more information above.

[natty dread]

Socialized healthcare seems like a good thing to me.

[PLAYER57832]

Apart from sources, just a couple of questions/points:

(1) Why is the US the least healthiest nation?

2 reasons cited as dominant

#1 poor attention to preventative care, heavy emphasis on treating trauma and other "high return"/dramatic procedures

#2 poor diet, lack of excercise (policies regarding food subsidies, lack of funding for parks and other greenspaces as well as addiction to TV/internet cited as primary contributing causes)

(2) Explain to me how money goes to attorneys, not to the plaintiffs, in medical malpractice cases

This does include some pretty "shifty" lawyers (some can take 90% or more) that weight it in the negative direction. The bar association reccomendation is a 30% "take". However, that is only a reccomendation, not a dictate. Also, that does not include court costs and other assorted "administrative" type fees. (expenses, etc.). I will try to find a source, but the typical amount a plaintiff receives is supposed to be around 45%.

(3) How is public education working out for you? Does public education solve education problems? Does public education exacerbate education problems? Do you know what I'm getting at here?

As much as I have come out with criticisms of public education, it FAR surpasses the alternative of letting every business dictate what is taught. That was the policy in years past... and it failed. Some people do wind up getting a better education in private schools. A large reason, not to be taken too lightly, is their ability to pick and choose who they get. My son, for example is not a candidate for the local private school because his behavior, in the past, was less than stellar.

(4) Doctors and nurses are NOT for public health care. Please ignore the doctors that the president trots to the podium every time he speaks.

Actually, while I am certainly not going to suggest that every doctor in the country agrees, when surveys are done, most doctors DO support universal health care. Though medicare and such have problems, they are often far easier to deal with than the insurance companies. You at least know where you stand, as one doctor put it.

(5) Insurance companies are not for UNIVERSAL healthcare. They are absolutely FOR the current plan.

agreed

(6) The government should not and does not step in for price gouging.

Disagree. It absolutely MUST set limits on prices. Its failure to set limits for the worst abuses means they continue, more people lose their homes or lose coverage and we ALL wind up paying. Gauging is not a reasonable profit.

[Snorri1234]

(6) The government should not and does not step in for price gouging.

What? Why the hell not?

[thegreekdog]

(1) US Not Healthiest - Agreed... what makes you think that is going to change with the current healthcare bill?
(2) Attorneys - What makes you think that is going to change with the current healthcare bill?
(3) Public Education vs. Public Healthcare - My point with this was that if public education is so poorly run, what makes anyone think public healthcare will be run any better?
(4) Doctors PRACTICE universal healthcare, they are NOT for state run healthcare. Find me a poll.
(5) Price Gouging - People should step in to stop price gouging, not the government. You don't like the prices at Business X, go to Business Y.

[natty dread]

(5) Price Gouging - People should step in to stop price gouging, not the government. You don't like the prices at Business X, go to Business Y.

Doesn't the very definition of "price gouging" involve using a monopoly or similar to raise prices? Ie. you have corn, nobody else sells corn, you can gouge prices on your corn.

[Mr_Adams]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/S ... rofits.bmp

take a look. we are concerned with the average profit margins of the Health Insurance Industry. 3.3%. That's the number we are interested in.

As for the US being unhealthy, its because the people as a whole are lazy, fat and eat processed crap. end of story.

Attorneys getting money has nothing to do with the insurance companies, but it comes back to the culture again. A country full of people who feel they are entitled to all these things, even if they don't work a day for it.

I am a high school senior in the public education system. I can tell you socialized education is a joke. We have a class for high school Freshmen who can't do basic algebra. A few of us calculus students tutor them an hour a day (I'm in there right before calc class). Some of them can't even multiply, and they've made it through 8 years of public education. So, you tell me, is socialized education successful/effective?

All the doctors and nurses I know (and I know a few) are not for socialized healthcare. I go to school with the kids of 3 dentists, an orthodontist, a pediatrist ect. and none of their parents are pro-sco. healthcare.

No company is for more competition in their market. Duh.

Doctors cost so much not because they are greedy, but because the american legal system opens the doors for thousands of law suits every year, which makes the doctors keep malpractice insurance. They have to cover their rears, and that makes medical care cost more, which makes insurance cost more.

[thegreekdog]

(5) Price Gouging - People should step in to stop price gouging, not the government. You don't like the prices at Business X, go to Business Y.

Doesn't the very definition of "price gouging" involve using a monopoly or similar to raise prices? Ie. you have corn, nobody else sells corn, you can gouge prices on your corn.

Is that my definition of price gouging? Yes.

Is that Player's definition of price gouging? No. Player's definition of price gouging is that the insurance company should not make $X in income, where $X is a reasonable amount. I don't know what Player thinks a reasonable amount of income is, but apparently whatever insurance companies make is not reasonable. I suspect the answer is that a reasonable amount of income is $0, effectively.

Therefore, if Blue Cross makes $100, they are price gouging.

Anyway, I was using Player's definition of price gouging, not the common definition (although, really, when we're talking about healthcare, the Player's definition is the common definition).

By the way, how long do you all think it will be before someone decides that law firms make too much money and impose price limits? I'm really excited for when that comes.

[thegreekdog]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/SoMLoWBKM4I/AAAAAAAAK4g/wKdZyg5LxQ0/s1600-h/profits.bmp

take a look. we are concerned with the average profit margins of the Health Insurance Industry. 3.3%. That's the number we are interested in.

As for the US being unhealthy, its because the people as a whole are lazy, fat and eat processed crap. end of story.

Attorneys getting money has nothing to do with the insurance companies, but it comes back to the culture again. A country full of people who feel they are entitled to all these things, even if they don't work a day for it.

I am a high school senior in the public education system. I can tell you socialized education is a joke. We have a class for high school Freshmen who can't do basic algebra. A few of us calculus students tutor them an hour a day (I'm in there right before calc class). Some of them can't even multiply, and they've made it through 8 years of public education. So, you tell me, is socialized education successful/effective?

All the doctors and nurses I know (and I know a few) are not for socialized healthcare. I go to school with the kids of 3 dentists, an orthodontist, a pediatrist ect. and none of their parents are pro-sco. healthcare.

No company is for more competition in their market. Duh.

Doctors cost so much not because they are greedy, but because the american legal system opens the doors for thousands of law suits every year, which makes the doctors keep malpractice insurance. They have to cover their rears, and that makes medical care cost more, which makes insurance cost more.

From the mouths of babes...

Yes, this is everything I was getting at. Thanks Mr. Adams. He is absolutely 100% correct in all regards. This post makes me happy that not every young member of our society is an idiot.

[Mr_Adams]

HA! from the mouth of babes? 17 is "babe"? I guess from your point of view, anything under 25ish is juvenile though, yes?

[thegreekdog]

HA! from the mouth of babes? 17 is "babe"? I guess from your point of view, anything under 25ish is juvenile though, yes?

If you are still in college, you are young... the upper limit of my young scale increases every year.

[Snorri1234]

(5) Price Gouging - People should step in to stop price gouging, not the government. You don't like the prices at Business X, go to Business Y.

Doesn't the very definition of "price gouging" involve using a monopoly or similar to raise prices? Ie. you have corn, nobody else sells corn, you can gouge prices on your corn.

The thing is that price-gouging usually happens when people don't have the luxury of going somewhere else.


Within the medical world there are several cases of where price gouging actually happens and why the free market can't correct them. Like drugs which have effectively a monopoly because there are no real alternatives (some cancerdrugs), or medical emergencies where people simply can't get to another doctor or hospital.


Saying that people, not the government, should stop price gouging is absurd.

[thegreekdog]

(5) Price Gouging - People should step in to stop price gouging, not the government. You don't like the prices at Business X, go to Business Y.

Doesn't the very definition of "price gouging" involve using a monopoly or similar to raise prices? Ie. you have corn, nobody else sells corn, you can gouge prices on your corn.

The thing is that price-gouging usually happens when people don't have the luxury of going somewhere else.


Within the medical world there are several cases of where price gouging actually happens and why the free market can't correct them. Like drugs which have effectively a monopoly because there are no real alternatives (some cancerdrugs), or medical emergencies where people simply can't get to another doctor or hospital.


Saying that people, not the government, should stop price gouging is absurd.

Okay, it's not absurd, but whatever.

It's interesting that you noted that price gouging happens because people can't go elsewhere. That happens to be the case with health insurance, ironically enough. And it happens to be the case because health insurance companies cannot cross state lines. And it happens to be the case because of federal and state laws. Go figure.

[PLAYER57832]

(5) Price Gouging - People should step in to stop price gouging, not the government. You don't like the prices at Business X, go to Business Y.

Doesn't the very definition of "price gouging" involve using a monopoly or similar to raise prices? Ie. you have corn, nobody else sells corn, you can gouge prices on your corn.

Is that my definition of price gouging? Yes.

Is that Player's definition of price gouging? No. Player's definition of price gouging is that the insurance company should not make $X in income, where $X is a reasonable amount. I don't know what Player thinks a reasonable amount of income is, but apparently whatever insurance companies make is not reasonable. I suspect the answer is that a reasonable amount of income is $0, effectively.

BALONEY.. and you know it, becuase I have made it quite clear before. I expect better than trolling from you greekdog.

As to what the exact OK profit is, it depends more on the factors that are deducted, how that profit is figured. My general issue (not directly with healthcare) is that too often companies take profit without really paying for externalities, such as (but not limited to) pollution and do so while expecting society to support their low- wage workers.

In healthcare, I think that decisions on recommended procedures should be evidentiary based and decided more universally, based on shared data, not the priority of one or another insurance company. I also think there needs to be a much tighter floor on profit than on other types of companies because there is no real, true free market in insurance right now. If the exchanges come through, we will be closer, but for it to work, the government has to set a basic "floor" -- either by providing a public option OR by mandating certain minimum coverage.

Right now, the insurance industry is motivated primarily by EMPLOYER COSTS, not the insurance delivery, etc. Most of us have no choice, we either take what the employer offers or go without. A few of us are lucky enough to have our kids covered under Medicaid (despite paying premiums.. Medicaid picks up the co-pay and things like dental and eye that few insurance policies cover any more).

[Phatscotty]

(1) US Not Healthiest - Agreed... what makes you think that is going to change with the current healthcare bill?
(2) Attorneys - What makes you think that is going to change with the current healthcare bill?
(3) Public Education vs. Public Healthcare - My point with this was that if public education is so poorly run, what makes anyone think public healthcare will be run any better?
(4) Doctors PRACTICE universal healthcare, they are NOT for state run healthcare. Find me a poll.
(5) Price Gouging - People should step in to stop price gouging, not the government. You don't like the prices at Business X, go to Business Y.

5...Yes one thing I hardly see anyone talk about is the gouging from the hospitals. I agree that health insurance charges too much, but that is nothing compared to what hospitals charge patients. Case in example....

3 months ago, I had some intense, mysterious back pain. It struck out of nowhere in the morning when I was getting out of my car. I was content on staying home from work, but my boss demands a doctors note. So, I went to the Hospital, cuz I started to think it could possibly be a kidney stone. Heres my experience, with the charges....

After waiting about 45 minutes, I was seen and got a bed about 9;30 am. I was given drugs through injection 1 time (almost double dosed when a different nurse walked in 10 minutes after the first shot and didnt know I was already given drugs, ALWAYS HAVE A FRIEND OR FAMILY MEMBER CLOSE TO YOU WHEN POSSIBLE!) So I laid there about an hour, then my scan came up. I spent 1 minute in the scan room, came out. I went back to my bed. hung out for another hour, the doctor came in and told me I did not have a kidney stone. I go home with my doctors note..

The Bill? $7,800. four seperate billers. The insurance company does it's part, paying about 6,400$(still leaves me with $1,400) overall. One thing that irked me was I had to pay 4 different deductibles of $250 (BS) since it was not the hospital, but a different company that took the sca($550), and another company that read the results to the doctor($450). (total BS) an anesthetic company for the drugs, ($600 for one shot??) and the hospital bed, for 2.5 hours, was about $5200.

When I asked "if it's a different company that tested me and and gave me a scan, and the doctor ONLY asked me about my symptoms before the scan, and then read the results after the scan, Then why did I need a bed? I could have waited for the scan in the lobby, and waited for the results in the lobby." (to save 6,000, who wouldnt?)

I am just picking the everloving shit out of these peoples brain, to try to get as much understanding about exactly how you can charge someone this much money. What I come to find is that it is government regulation that requires a separate company to read the results of a test for a doctor (at least with the machine I used), and I got her to admit that the doctor was mostly a 3rd party communicator between me and the scanning company, and also that I didnt need a ER bed.

It has always been my opinion, that as soon as you get a third party to assume any portion of the responsibility to pay(for ANY service), it always give the primary service a green light to raise prices. And after many, many years of subsidies, the gouging becomes standard practice. The inflation rates of the 3rd party merge into the primary service. Then you get what we have now...ER beds at $2,500/hr and $120/aspirin.

[PLAYER57832]

It's interesting that you noted that price gouging happens because people can't go elsewhere. That happens to be the case with health insurance, ironically enough. And it happens to be the case because health insurance companies cannot cross state lines. And it happens to be the case because of federal and state laws. Go figure.

No, the biggest reason is because few people actually purchase their own insurance. They rely upon their employer and their employer's motive is saving money, not necessarily providing best care. This is not because they are evil, it is because they are in the business of making a profit... and healthcare is one big expense they can cut. However, if you leave it up to individuals, they will often choose to pay more for better coverage. Even when they don't, they will generally pay more attention to things like service, which doctors accept the policy, etc.

[PLAYER57832]

I am a high school senior in the public education system. I can tell you socialized education is a joke. We have a class for high school Freshmen who can't do basic algebra. A few of us calculus students tutor them an hour a day (I'm in there right before calc class). Some of them can't even multiply, and they've made it through 8 years of public education. So, you tell me, is socialized education successful/effective?

If socialized education is such a joke, how is it that you are learning Calculus, curtesy of the tax payors?

A lot of kids just don't want to learn and/or have very difficult situations with which to deal. That is not, in many cases the fault of the education system. When you claim that socialized education is a failure, you have to more than simply say its not perfect, you have to show why private education is better. AND that means looking at universal private education, not the current system where private schools can select for the better students.
AND--y-the-way, sounds like your education is better than that my son will be offered ... I will have to tutor him in Calculus myself ..,

To CONTRAST I can point to several of my private school friends and acquaintances who did not get Calculus at all, who have almost no knowledge of biology or other cultures. Far worse, a good many for "private education" are really wanting the world to believe the Earth was created in 6 rotations of the earth, well under a million years ago. THAT is why we NEED universal and free education!

[Snorri1234]

As for the US being unhealthy, its because the people as a whole are lazy, fat and eat processed crap. end of story.

"LOL PEOPLE ARE FAT AND LAZY" is not a good enough explanation. Certainly, it plays a part but you can't reasonable argue that all these things like not being able to afford preventative care and prenatal care, getting insurance-claims dismissed even though you need them and all that have no effect on people's health?

All the doctors and nurses I know (and I know a few) are not for socialized healthcare. I go to school with the kids of 3 dentists, an orthodontist, a pediatrist ect. and none of their parents are pro-sco. healthcare.

Well considering dentists and orthodontists aren't part of socialized healthcare here I fail to see the relevance.

FYI, all the doctors I know (and that's a lot more than you) think the american system is absurd.

Doctors cost so much not because they are greedy, but because the american legal system opens the doors for thousands of law suits every year, which makes the doctors keep malpractice insurance. They have to cover their rears, and that makes medical care cost more, which makes insurance cost more.

Malpractice insurance is a small percentage of costs. So are most doctor's salaries actually.