INTO THE DEEP (COMPLETE - Mafia Win !!)

[dakky21]

One thing has to be taken in the account. No one of those who claimed speak of their secondary actions... OK, I'll start first. OK, I can hide during the night and as I said all actions against me are void. BUT. I can also choose to ambush whoever checks on me, but then I'm not hidden and if the kill is directed I will be killed. But IF it's just an inspection, I will learn something of those who checked me.

That said... I understand why TX AG spoke about passive abilities and perhaps a passive role that can poison people. He obviously has a similar role or was picked and someone who visited him or the real poisoner got poisoned. Blacky was poisoned because he visited someone, but if he was misdirected then we can't know who he did visit, and I think this story is leading to nowhere, just more confusion. Razorvich Certified Confusion. RCC.

[Sirius Kase]

Mets almost immediately confirmed he got redirected. It's like a confession to being the poisoner!

It's not quite like that.

I am not a poisoner.

Also, if I were the poisoner, why would I admit it? Either I'm scum and then I'm just giving myself up, or I'm town and I'm letting scum know a power role to target for a kill.

Right. It doesn't make sense unless you are coordinating with someone else, taking a hit for the team, even.

[ZaBeast]

To sort through the mess and distinguish between scummy comments and confused comments, and confused - scummy comments, I propose that EVERYONE WHO HAS CLAIMED SOMETHING ALREADY:

Please post everything you have already stated, (and any details you wish to add that are necessary for understanding what you are claiming), in one single post in a clear way.

If I recall correctly that means jfm, dakky, skoffin, tobikera, metsfan.. did I miss any others?

dakky:

One thing has to be taken in the account. No one of those who claimed speak of their secondary actions... OK, I'll start first. OK, I can hide during the night and as I said all actions against me are void. BUT. I can also choose to ambush whoever checks on me, but then I'm not hidden and if the kill is directed I will be killed. But IF it's just an inspection, I will learn something of those who checked me.

mets: afaik only claimed to being redirected

jfm:

My ability is "prevent all attacks against your target"

I have been trying to tell yous i am town and i just get the you must be scum for giving out info on yourself.My ability is weak at the beginning of the game as i have a less than 7% chance of picking the scums target unless i make myself the target and then they waste thier night.

I have no choice now but to target myself every night but atleast town now knows that i can only be lynched.Also note attacks is plural so you can count on vigilantes in this game.

then claimed to be a seraphim knight (specie: angel fish)

SW: standard doc (specie: axolotl)

What it actually was saying without quoting my role is that I prevent kill actions from reaching my target. Not that I prevent my targets actions.

skoff: claims to have been targeted by a killing action last night.

tobi: random redirect N1 (different unknown one onwards) and partial mirroring (specie: squid)

I am not a bus driver, or a water taxi driver, but I last night I could mis-direct someone's action. According to the mod, my abilities will be different on N2, but that's neither here nor there. My role is a TOWN role.
I am a squid and last night I squirted ink on a chosen person to mis-direct them.
I chose Metsfanmax.

Also I was thinking about it and I don't see why tobi would have a healer mentioned in his role pm given the role he claimed. Am I missing something?

Quite simple really. The mod said that if my next target prey is a healer, I become one for one night in the future. So, if my prey is a food fish, I get to eat, and if my prey is a healer, I get to heal. That's all I know.

I think that is all

[ZaBeast]

And who brought up the idea of a self-targetting seraph knight?
That makes no sense at all. It defeats the core essense of the role and can't be called seraph knight anymore.

It's a one time deal for target,it's why i held the title back till now.Who i would target hasn't been done yet.

To answer BuJ, it's jfm himself who said he would have to target himself every night when he claimed. See my post above.
@jfm, if you not claiming completely was a clever ploy to trick scum, then why would you have willingly (and completely unnecessarily) mentioned you haven't targeted anyone yet? If you holding back your seraph knight role was a gambit, you lost everything it gave you by opening you up to redirection/roleblocking from mafia this turn, on top of having a doc counter-claim. I don't think you'd have been targeted by mafia anyways if that was what you were afraid of.

Not so random. I think Blacky is one of the more experienced players. Therefore, if he is town (which I believe), then he would be a prime target.

Is he? Is he really?

defends dakky and setting up lynch candidates blacky and serius

Not even sure what the question from skoffin is putting in doubt. blacky being town, a prime target or (less likely) experienced (my guess would be a prime target). I'm waiting of clarification from skoff, but I don't see it as setting up blacky as a lynch candidate.

There are many possible reasons for why we have no NK
1. Doc type save -
2. Roleblock - I believe there will be a roleblocker in the game, but I don't think this is the no NK reason
3. Mafia attacked me - what I personally suspect
4. Bus driving or other action altercation - I believe there will be a role somewhere that can alter night actions, but not what happened last night
5. They went for dakky like he thinks - which would be dumb and unlikely

6 ???chose not to attack...start with a strong list of lynchable candidates

How would killing N1 prevent scum from trying to push for lynches D2? I don't get it.

To summarise -
1. I think there is at least two killers, probably mafia and a SK rather than a vig - for reasons

(3 or 4 mafia and 1 serial killer is more likely

Pretty sure she was talking about killing factions, not players

The obvious answer is he is a newish player with little experience playing town PR.

That doesn't make sense to me; his role change screams that someone has told him what to say.

If I were scum and my teammate had successfully claimed a town power role the last thing I would do is tell them to claim something slightly different, thereby throwing doubt onto that initial claim.

Out of the blue, really bad idea. When counter-claimed, that's the lesser evil.

You claim to have misdirected Mets. Mets almost immediately confirmed he got redirected. It's like a confession to being the poisoner!

So you believe Tobi's case is solid? Because that's the only way him confessing being redirected is the same as admitting to be the poisonner.

But hey, why is it weirder that Tobi knows of the existence of a healer through a mod note that Blacky's knowledge of it? I believe Blacky was told by the mod that he was poisoned and needed to seek the aid of a healer. Would be a cruel mod PM if there's no healer. I think it's much more plausible that Tobi was told of a healer by the mod than he happened to be a scum role cop that happened to target the healer last night (especially when he claims an action that Mets has confirmed).

I don't think it's very surprising a mod would notify someone poisoned of its state. What I find surprising is that tobi would know about a healer when he has nothing to do with the case, and with explanation a partial mirroring role, but only for healing roles.

Okay I'll bite. Who's scum with him?

Did they bus day 1 or defend him?

Did they start the wagon on him or did they push a counter?

Did they tell him to claim or did he do that all by himself? If it's A did someone spew that they knew it beforehand? If B did anyone seem surprised by him going all rogue?

What scum narrative actually makes sense to you to explain:
Step 1: scum player claims a 'protective' unprompted and without any heat on them and without any plausible benefit at the start of the game.
Step 2: over half the players interrogate or vote him to elaborate further and/or to lynch him
Step 3: a counterwagon springs up and gets hammered right after jfm fullclaims

The obvious answer is he is a newish player with little experience playing town PR.

Yes mafia is a game of deception but the convulted answers are rarely the right answers.

I don't see how that clears him in any way though. For instance let's get over your 3 steps
1. Bad move as scum OR as town.
2. Not alignment indicative again
3. Counterwagon could be from townies who moved on or from scum who'd rather have someone else lynched. Again, don't see how it clears him.

[ZaBeast]

So in conclusion the claimed role makes sense, but as skoffin, I don't believe jfm being deceptive about his role could come from a player who made so many newbie mistakes already.
That's why I'm keeping my vote on him.

[Ragian]

So, both of you are voting him because he's a newbie. ZaBeast because jmf has played too cleverly and like a newbie, and a newbie can't play cleverly, while Skoffin votes jmf because she's still smarting from when mitch was here.

Who's next? TX, Sirus, and blacky? Tobi perhaps?

[BuJaber]

The issue is the dayplay from the other players doesn't mske sense if some of them are his partners.

It isn't jfm's actions THEMSELVES that clear him, it's the fact that this steo by step game flow happened in the first place.

My questions to dakky aren't meaningless. There needs to be some plausible answers to them that supports scum!jfm, because there is no way that the entire scum team just ignores the whole thing and doesn't react to it if jfm was scum. And I personally haven't seen any reactions from the others that definitely point to them being scum partners with jfm, except for pershy and he ended up flipping town.

The biggest mistake that newbie town make is worrying about getting lynched.
It takes time to learn how to do everything you can to stop your lynch but without having constant worry over how you look. Jfm is worrying constantly and that fucks people's reads up.

It sounds like DBD games have plenty of PRs and interesting mechanics, meaning jfm has probably seen a PR trying to confuse scum before, he just sucked at imitating it.

And I'm not seeing the issue with him not telling us he's not literally a doctor earlier. People inferred it from his description which does in fact match the regular seraph knight description. The variation of self targetting is pointless (no offence mod) because the whole point of the role is to be a super doctor for one player in the game. Like a permanent bodyguard without the downside of dieing in their place.

Also if the claim was in faxt manufactured by his teammates to save him then it is a terrible claim given the obvious holes of not targetting anyone, and claiming the ability to self target which just make him look scummier.
You should know that if it weren't for day 1, I wouldn't believe a single word about the seraph knight claim. It's even dumber than the random claim in d1.

FP'd by Ragian

It sucks because we are seriously approaching a point where we just have to lynch him just to get rid of the confusion and controversy. It's too hard to sort people's alignment if he continues to be alive and people still bring up the jfm is scum case

[BuJaber]

If you want to lynch him because his play is annoying and anti-town I am not opposed to lynching a player like that on principle to raise the bar of proficiency.

But let's not pretend there's a scum case here

[BuJaber]

Even if you think he's scum why aren't you pushing mets harder? Or aage? Or me?

Basically someone who isn't new and does know better, but still townreading jfm. Or in the case of aage seemingly avoiding the whole thing.

Is it because jfm is easier to lynch and you don't actually have a case?

[Tobikera]

Not sure how this day will end, but it should be interesting.

[ZaBeast]

So, both of you are voting him because he's a newbie. ZaBeast because jmf has played too cleverly and like a newbie, and a newbie can't play cleverly, while Skoffin votes jmf because she's still smarting from when mitch was here.

Who's next? TX, Sirus, and blacky? Tobi perhaps?

Skoff said it better than me. you can't excuse his scuminess because he's a newbie but accept he tried to trick scum by being deceptive about his role. If you believe he's good enough to be deceptive about his role, then you have to believe the scummy parts are actually scummy and not due to newbiness

Also if the claim was in faxt manufactured by his teammates to save him then it is a terrible claim given the obvious holes of not targetting anyone, and claiming the ability to self target which just make him look scummier.

I challenge you to try to find another role that would fit the claim and allow self-targetting then. The scum team had contraints to begin with and I believe seraph knight is the best fake claim they could come up with

Even if you think he's scum why aren't you pushing mets harder? Or aage? Or me?

Basically someone who isn't new and does know better, but still townreading jfm. Or in the case of aage seemingly avoiding the whole thing.

Is it because jfm is easier to lynch and you don't actually have a case?

Because protecting scum doesn't necessarily mean you are. Don't say there's no case though. Anybody else would have been lynched already. I believe him jumping in the Ragian bandwagon D1 is enough of a slip to warrant lynching by itself.

[Metsfanmax]

Skoff said it better than me. you can't excuse his scuminess because he's a newbie but accept he tried to trick scum by being deceptive about his role. If you believe he's good enough to be deceptive about his role, then you have to believe the scummy parts are actually scummy and not due to newbiness

Skoffin is really stretching the normal meaning of words in that post. jfm didn't lie about his role, he didn't obfuscate his role, and he didn't change his claimed role. The only thing he did was explicitly reveal the additional piece of information that he is a doctor that can only target one player, which was already softclaimed in his D1 post:

I have no choice now but to target myself every night but atleast town now knows that i can only be lynched.Also note attacks is plural so you can count on vigilantes in this game.

I don't think it takes a master of mafia, or even a particularly experienced player, to recognize the value in not giving up every piece of information you have when you claim. So I find your reasoning and Skoffin's reasoning flimsy.

At any rate, let's say you're right. Neither of you have actually made a strong case that his being deceptive about it is inherently scummy. If jfm's action was as clever as you're claiming, why couldn't it have come from a town player who realized that giving up the additional information to scum was a bad idea? There's nothing inherently scummy in the alleged deception. It's arguably a town-aligned move, if he's telling the truth about his role and he is town. I think you're going too far in the other direction -- just because BuJ might be wrong about attributing jfm's actions to newbieness, doesn't mean that you can swing all the way in the other direction and attribute his actions to brilliance. It really would be a brilliant play if he is scum, much more clever than merely eliding the information about only targeting one player. That is, if you believe he is a good enough player to be capable of the alleged scum deception, then he's certainly also a good enough player to withhold his information as town.

For the same reason, I will agree with you that BuJ's reasoning doesn't strike me as solid either. If jfm is telling the truth about being a Seraph Knight and is town, then being smart enough to know that he didn't actually have to target himself last night is somewhat clear evidence that he's not as much of a newbie as BuJ is suggesting. One thing that's interesting is that if jfm is scum, he could have said he chose to target himself last night, which would be a pretty undisprovable claim, unless he got night killed and it became a moot point. The fact that he admitted that he didn't do it (or did target himself but is lying about it now, to mislead scum) strikes me as town-aligned, precisely because it is a little risky.

I think the fault here lies more with strike wolf, not with jfm, for (a) being confident that doc can be counter-claimed in this game and (b) counter-claiming jfm when jfm never explicitly claimed the same "doctor" role that strike says he has. strike says he tried to elicit a clearer claim from jfm, which is presumably referring to:

So I have some potentially important information but I would need a clearer claim from JFM before I can know for certain if it's worth mentioning or just going to add to the confusion.

Except that strike never pushed that beyond this post, and then directly contradicted himself by adding to the confusion by doing his claim before jfm gave his clearer claim, with his explanation being that he is:

the only one barking that right now and I am not currently active enough to force the issue in a reasonable amount of time. Also, I admittedly may have been trying to avoid having to admit to such an embarrassing mistake.

Many of us were clear on D1 that we weren't attributing to jfm the role of standard town doc, only informally calling him a doctor because he has basically the same ability. (Some people admittedly weren't so clear. *cough* dakky *cough*)

The sequence of events described by you and Skoffin is plausible. I find myself uncertain what to think about jfm and his actions. But you could be wrong, and I'm not confident enough that I believe your story to go after jfm. And at this point, doing it merely because strike outed himself would be the sunk cost fallacy.

[ZaBeast]

Reply to mets

Skoff said it better than me. you can't excuse his scuminess because he's a newbie but accept he tried to trick scum by being deceptive about his role. If you believe he's good enough to be deceptive about his role, then you have to believe the scummy parts are actually scummy and not due to newbiness

Skoffin is really stretching the normal meaning of words in that post. jfm didn't lie about his role, he didn't obfuscate his role, and he didn't change his claimed role. The only thing he did was explicitly reveal the additional piece of information that he is a doctor that can only target one player, which was already softclaimed in his D1 post:

I have no choice now but to target myself every night but atleast town now knows that i can only be lynched.Also note attacks is plural so you can count on vigilantes in this game.

Not clearing out the confusion is being deceptive imo. Also the claim you quoted doesn't match a seraph knight role, thus being deceptive there as well.

For the same reason, I will agree with you that BuJ's reasoning doesn't strike me as solid either. If jfm is telling the truth about being a Seraph Knight and is town, then being smart enough to know that he didn't actually have to target himself last night is somewhat clear evidence that he's not as much of a newbie as BuJ is suggesting. One thing that's interesting is that if jfm is scum, he could have said he chose to target himself last night, which would be a pretty undisprovable claim, unless he got night killed and it became a moot point. The fact that he admitted that he didn't do it (or did target himself but is lying about it now, to mislead scum) strikes me as town-aligned, precisely because it is a little risky.

I wouldn't believe a self-targetting seraph knight, it defeats the purpose of the role and would turn him into a bulletproof role. Also willingly admitting he didn't target anybody is a mistake that ruins the edge he got by being deceptive about his role, which makes me think the seraph knight claim has been fabricated by the scum team.

About the rest of the post: The deception is not particularly scummy. What I'm saying is that if he's good enough to be deceptive about his role, he's good enough to be held accountable for his slips.

[BuJaber]

Whatever let's lynch this and get back to playing mafia. I'm done arguing about him.

[V]jfm[/V]

[BuJaber]

Whatever let's lynch this and get back to playing mafia. I'm done arguing about him.

Unvote Vote jfm

[Ragian]

BuJ, you're better than that. Don't give in to frustration. Whom of the three main jmf hunters would believe to be scum? I'm dead sure one of them is. I'd say either Skoffin or Beast. They want us to hit him and learn nothing D2.

[BuJaber]

The problem isn't with the slimeball that is the scum among them. The problem is with the townies not moving on from this.

The jfm thing has become a cancer that needs to be dealt with. (Some) scum are letting this continue because it serves their agenda, and some town are too either because they've lost interest or they don't know what to think.

Of course not all the jfm pushers are scum, I agree, but I can't tell which is which. My gut tells me it's dakky, who is an optimal lynch sometime before lylo anyway given his claim. However I'm not convinced that skoffin isn't scum either. She's the one going beyond calling jfm scum to also implicating others before jfm even flips. Given what we know so far zabeast looks the most townie out of them. that's what I can tell you. I can't with the information we have tell who's scum with a lot of confidence. You know dakky's reputation just as well or better than I do. Sadly he actually could be town.

I was wrong to not let the jfm lynch go through day 1. I regret it. Sometimes the best move isn't the correct move in the short term, it's about having a more cooperative town in the long term.

[Razorvich]

Mod Note: Day 2 Deadline will be released in 48 hours

[Skoffin]

Mets, a Seraph Knight can't target themselves - had it claimed as such he would have been pegged right away, so it's not a town-aligned move to say he didn't pick himself. I just don't get how he can be too dumb apparently to be scum, but can know enough to obscure aspects of his role to fool scum. I have literally never met a newb who would do that.
And his role claim now is not the same as what he claimed day 1. Day 1 he claimed he could select anyone, even himself, to protect at night. People made assumptions certainly, but he didn't correct any and it is reasonable to assume doctor based on his posts . Day 2 he claims Seraph Knight that can only target one person for the entire game, and he can't select himself. Both may be protective type roles but they are not the same claim; he has changed the details. Why did he soft claim protective, lead us into a doctor type claim and then claim something else D2? And now he has run away from the conversation entirely. He was active as f*ck D1, meanwhile D2 he was around long enough to OMGUS vote people (literally every person he has declared as the scum team are people voting him) and now he has disappeared for 3 days. Come on

Alright, if you refuse to see the issue with jfm, then who the hell DO you think is scum? I'd also like to know why it's only a select few people talking here.

Blacky has gone very quiet
Serius is quiet except when to say some vague non-opinion
aage has disappeared
pika slips in slightly and dodge rolls back out

dakky is the only person I trust right now

[jfm10]

Awe did skoffin miss me?Now it's time for me to show yous some things i have learned.strike wolf,i can't prove with words that you are scum,it can only be done with cooperative actions.

1.Would the real doctor please use a reply to razorvich and tell him you want to use your daytime action to heal blacky.DO NOT post in this thread that its done or that your a doctor cause these guys will crucify you.

2.blacky,when it is done i believe razorvich will send you a letter telling you that you're healed.if that happens then please type confirmed and vote strike wolf.

3. when this happens the rest of the new players MUST get on the train and lynch strike wolf.

4. ragian , bujaber and metsfanmax please you guys are playing with logic and i believe aage is aswell,after this post I will be hit hard and i have got to go to sleep.By me the time needed for the doctor to work his magic.Thank Yous and goodnight.

unvote skoffin

vote strike wolf

[ZaBeast]

Wait, what?
How do you know the healing is a day action, and why would that rule out SW as the healer? I mean he said the quote below about not knowing who he'll target tonight, but that doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't have a day action, even if it makes it unlikely.

To answer a question, yes I can heal poisonings as well as regular kills and if you look back you'll even see I low key brought up the idea of a poisoner as "unlikely" day 1. That said, i have not decided who I'm going to target tonight.

I think jfm is annoying but harmless, if he's scum, he can wait. Blacky might be a deadman walking. we can't lynch all of them today so, I pick this one:
VOTE Metsfanmax

For the record, do you think jfm is scum?

[blacky365]

Awe did skoffin miss me?Now it's time for me to show yous some things i have learned.strike wolf,i can't prove with words that you are scum,it can only be done with cooperative actions.

1.Would the real doctor please use a reply to razorvich and tell him you want to use your daytime action to heal blacky.DO NOT post in this thread that its done or that your a doctor cause these guys will crucify you.

2.blacky,when it is done i believe razorvich will send you a letter telling you that you're healed.if that happens then please type confirmed and vote strike wolf.

3. when this happens the rest of the new players MUST get on the train and lynch strike wolf.

4. ragian , bujaber and metsfanmax please you guys are playing with logic and i believe aage is aswell,after this post I will be hit hard and i have got to go to sleep.By me the time needed for the doctor to work his magic.Thank Yous and goodnight.

unvote skoffin

vote strike wolf

I dont follow... if I were to get a message saying im healed, how does that make SW scum?

[Metsfanmax]

Mets, a Seraph Knight can't target themselves

And you know this because... you helped the mods write the role PMs?

[Ragian]

Awe did skoffin miss me?Now it's time for me to show yous some things i have learned.strike wolf,i can't prove with words that you are scum,it can only be done with cooperative actions.

1.Would the real doctor please use a reply to razorvich and tell him you want to use your daytime action to heal blacky.DO NOT post in this thread that its done or that your a doctor cause these guys will crucify you.

2.blacky,when it is done i believe razorvich will send you a letter telling you that you're healed.if that happens then please type confirmed and vote strike wolf.

3. when this happens the rest of the new players MUST get on the train and lynch strike wolf.

4. ragian , bujaber and metsfanmax please you guys are playing with logic and i believe aage is aswell,after this post I will be hit hard and i have got to go to sleep.By me the time needed for the doctor to work his magic.Thank Yous and goodnight.

unvote skoffin

vote strike wolf

I dont follow... if I were to get a message saying im healed, how does that make SW scum?

Strike has said he heals at night. Apparently, jmf knows that healing is done by day. Let's see what happens.

I was about to vote chap.

[blacky365]

Ok...
vote strike wolf

I guess if I am healed then I will unvote, if not then I’m voting for someone who could potentially heal me but is choosing not to!