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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:47 pm
by Stopper
Paulicus wrote:Caleb the Cruel wrote:OwlLawyer wrote:Caleb, when you touch the bed of a woman with her period, do you wash yourself and your clothes immediately?
is that in the Bible?
Yes it's the bible, but old testament.. Jesus changed this in the new.
I thought he specifically said he would change not a word, comma, etc of the Law? Surely that's why the Catholics & Pentecostalists still chase after homos, even though there is only mention of homosexuality in the OT. Mind you, they still eat pork, so... All a bit confusing, and not a little dubious if you ask me
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:48 pm
by Stopper
You know what, I meant "persecute" homos, not "chase after" them, but that is another matter
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:49 pm
by vtmarik
jay_a2j wrote:Ok this post is FULL of mis-information. I bolded the parts where you made up stuff as scripture and it is nowhere to be found in scripture.
Also the paragraph with the astric * is nothing more then your interpretation.
And thus is no less valid than yours.
I'm working from the same raw materials as you. All interpretation is opinion, and thus cannot be proven right or wrong. But that damn verse says "Women are inferior to men."
And I never said Catholics were not Christian. Some are, some aren't. (I believe I defended Catholics against Calebs rants) There is some catholic doctrine that I find not lined up with scripture. (Praying to Mary/ Confessional are two examples)
Ok, you never said that, but then again you never made any effort to distance yourself from Truman's opinions on the matter, hence the reason I lumped you in with him. My apologies.
When believers say, "the Church", we mean all the people who have Faith in Jesus. Not a building or denomination. Jesus is the head of "the Church", we (Christians) are "the body". The Spirit of God dwells in the hearts of men/women not buildings.
I agree with that, but that leads me to this question:
Why do the buildings exist?
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:49 pm
by OwlLawyer
The bible, and what is in the bible has changed over the years... so i guess God was wrong at one point?
Oh, and those respected Christian leaders who formed the books of the Bible...
They were Catholic.
Protestants and Catholics have different books in their Bibles....
Who's right? How could God let this happen?
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:55 pm
by OnlyAmbrose
OwlLawyer wrote:The bible, and what is in the bible has changed over the years... so i guess God was wrong at one point?
Oh, and those respected Christian leaders who formed the books of the Bible...
They were Catholic.
Protestants and Catholics have different books in their Bibles....
Who's right? How could God let this happen?
God said there would be false prophets, etc (personally, I liken Joseph Smith to such forewarnings), and if there's false prophets there's obviously going to be a divide among believers. Those who stay on the straight and narrow will be saved. Personally, I believe all Christians to be on the straight and narrow... some sects just to be a little bit off from the center of the path, maybe straying on the outskirts, etc.
About the different books in the Bible, this is only different on certain occasions. My understanding is that after the Reformation Protestants chucked out Maccabees for some reason or another.
In any event, I want to hear anyone who has anything to say about the non-Christianity of the Catholic Church, please, I have a few words to say to you
I'll address this first-
They fall under "christian" because Christ is their head.. but it can be argued that because of the pope being their leader and only he having the power to comunicate directly with Christ.. or something like that (I'm not catholic).. but the scripture does not say the church should be structured like this.
The short answer is that this draws a few wrong conclusions. Jesus clearly stated to Peter that he would be "the rock" upon which he would build the Church. Leadership is clearly implied there. About the "direct communication" thing, that's a common misconception as well. Not only are Popes quite capable of making mistakes, but I'm just as capable of praying to God as the Pope is.
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:55 pm
by Jargo The Axe
I believe I answered that already... and when did the Bible change and make God wrong?
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:55 pm
by Paulicus
OwlLawyer wrote:The bible, and what is in the bible has changed over the years... so i guess God was wrong at one point?
Oh, and those respected Christian leaders who formed the books of the Bible...
They were Catholic.
Protestants and Catholics have different books in their Bibles....
Who's right? How could God let this happen?
It's not that the bible has changed over the years (mind you some versions have been altered I will not get into that) but many have prided their versions by going back to the oldest versions of text and re-translating for the new version.. but what they found was over time it had already been very well preserved and passed on.
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:57 pm
by Jargo The Axe
And the respected leaders I am talking about were recently after Martin Luther did his thing. If you're going to criticize the Bible maybe you should read it and understand it first. Just a suggestion. Not a lash out.
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:00 pm
by Paulicus
OnlyAmbrose wrote: They fall under "christian" because Christ is their head.. but it can be argued that because of the pope being their leader and only he having the power to comunicate directly with Christ.. or something like that (I'm not catholic).. but the scripture does not say the church should be structured like this.
The short answer is that this draws a few wrong conclusions. Jesus clearly stated to Peter that he would be "the rock" upon which he would build the Church. Leadership is clearly implied there. About the "direct communication" thing, that's a common misconception as well. Not only are Popes quite capable of making mistakes, but I'm just as capable of praying to God as the Pope is.
For those not catholic it is hard to tell the real from the rumour.
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:03 pm
by Jargo The Axe
Not to attack anyone but I don't fully understand the justification of praying to saints. please explain?
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:25 pm
by vtmarik
Jargo The Axe wrote:Not to attack anyone but I don't fully understand the justification of praying to saints. please explain?
I think it's because it's to distribute the work load. Why pray to God when you can pray to one of his assistants?
It's like a corporation, if you're computer goes down you aren't going to call the CEO.
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:28 pm
by Jargo The Axe
Are you kidding? That has no Biblical basis whatsoever. If someone else has a better reason please tell. Otherwise I don't see the difference between praying to a saint and praying to Budha or Muhammed.
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:33 pm
by vtmarik
Jargo The Axe wrote:Are you kidding? That has no Biblical basis whatsoever. If someone else has a better reason please tell. Otherwise I don't see the difference between praying to a saint and praying to Budha or Muhammed.
I think I better step aside and let OnlyAmbrose take over, he's catholic and I'm not.
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:39 pm
by Jargo The Axe
lol alright sounds good. What are you by the way?
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:41 pm
by jay_a2j
jay_a2j wrote:
And I never said Catholics were not Christian. Some are, some aren't. (I believe I defended Catholics against Calebs rants) There is some catholic doctrine that I find not lined up with scripture. (Praying to Mary/ Confessional are two examples)
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:47 pm
by Jargo The Axe
So you are saying it doesn't. Right? Well I don't believe it was either I'm just interested in the defense behind it.
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:57 pm
by OnlyAmbrose
jay_a2j wrote:jay_a2j wrote:
And I never said Catholics were not Christian. Some are, some aren't. (I believe I defended Catholics against Calebs rants) There is some catholic doctrine that I find not lined up with scripture. (Praying to Mary/ Confessional are two examples)
The praying to Mary issue is one I can go into depth with if you like- it is very well tied into the intercession of saints, and I have quite a lot of experience defending the doctrine.
I can't think of anything in scripture which suggests that confession is bad. In fact... there is clear scriptural support of it. I found this as I was flipping through the Bible last night:
New American Bible wrote:James 5:16- Therefore, confess your sins to one another, that you may be healed.
Here's another classic used by most Catholic apologists. It is of Jesus sending the disciples out into the world... in the modern Church, the disciples are the priests.
New American Bible wrote:John 20:21-23"Amen I say to you, As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained"
Since you say that these are AGAINST scripture, I'd like the know where confession comes into conflict with the Bible. The saints explanation may take a bit longer, so let's clear up the confession issue first. Given these two verses, I think a very good case can be made FOR confession- I doubt a good Biblical case can be made AGAINST it.
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:00 pm
by OnlyAmbrose
vtmarik wrote:Jargo The Axe wrote:Are you kidding? That has no Biblical basis whatsoever. If someone else has a better reason please tell. Otherwise I don't see the difference between praying to a saint and praying to Budha or Muhammed.
I think I better step aside and let OnlyAmbrose take over, he's catholic and I'm not.
yeah i'll get to that, one thing at a time. Confession first, the saint one is often a little harder to explain because people generally have a large amount of misconceptions regarding it.
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:04 pm
by Jargo The Axe
Actually Jesus means to ask each other for forgiveness as well as God (meaning always do both)
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:05 pm
by OnlyAmbrose
Jargo The Axe wrote:Actually Jesus means to ask each other for forgiveness as well as God (meaning always do both)
That's basically what confession is, I'm glad you agree
Anyways, I'm glad to be on familiar turf now. The whole atheist vs. Christian was new to me, but I've been down the fundamentalist vs. Catholic road several times.
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:13 pm
by jay_a2j
This boils down to difference of beliefs based on scripture interpretation.
CONFESSIONAL:
James 5:16- Therefore, confess your sins to one another, that you may be healed.
confess your sins to
one another not a priest or minister. I can go directly to God and ask for forgiveness. I don't have to tell a priest so he can tell me if I say 10 hail Mary's I'll be absolved of that sin. That is ludacris. Jesus is our mediator to God not man.
PRAYING TO MARY / SAINTS
Mary was not devine. She was human like you and I. I don't believe there are any scriptures that instruct us to pray to dead people. "When you pray, pray like this: Our Father who art in heaven" not "Blessed Mary , mother of God".
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:23 pm
by OnlyAmbrose
Again, we'll get to the Mary and saints thing later. Back to Confession:
jay_a2j wrote:This boils down to difference of beliefs based on scripture interpretation.
CONFESSIONAL:
James 5:16- Therefore, confess your sins to one another, that you may be healed.
confess your sins to
one another not a priest or minister. I can go directly to God and ask for forgiveness. I don't have to tell a priest so he can tell me if I say 10 hail Mary's I'll be absolved of that sin. That is ludacris. Jesus is our mediator to God not man.
And why, pray, can't a priest or minister be considered "one another"? Indeed, this piece of Biblical gold combined with the passage from John I provided in a prior post seems to indicate that ministers are the best people to confess your sins to- what's more, common sense would seem to dictate that if you are sinning, what better person to provide healing that a minister? I don't understand why it's ok for me to confess to anyone, just NOT a priest or a minister.
What's more, it should be noted that Jesus was a man. He commanded the disciples to carry out his work once he was gone, and if you deny THAT fact I will bust out more Bible verses than the software on this forum can safely handle
.
In addition, your rendition of confessions is almost ridiculously cynical- I can't speak for other Catholics on this matter, but I don't go to confession because I have to, I do so because I WANT to. Even if it were not "required", I think I would, because it is a truly glorious experience. I have lived far from a perfect life and committed sins beyond those which most Christians have, and a confession is the most gratifying and purifying experience I have ever had.
What's more, on a less Biblical note, the priests give darned good advice on how to combat your temptations. I know THAT from experience too. Confession cannot be said to be a bad thing on anyone's watch, not even fundamentalists'- if you were to look at it in a secular viewpoint, it's simply seeking council from a minister in your church. From a Biblical standpoint, there's sufficient ground to argue it and no ground to deny it.
And as a conclusion, I have yet to see you prove how the practice of Confession by the Catholic Church is against scripture, and thus how it denies "some Catholics" their Christianity.
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:45 pm
by jay_a2j
OnlyAmbrose wrote:Again, we'll get to the Mary and saints thing later. Back to Confession:
jay_a2j wrote:This boils down to difference of beliefs based on scripture interpretation.
CONFESSIONAL:
James 5:16- Therefore, confess your sins to one another, that you may be healed.
confess your sins to
one another not a priest or minister. I can go directly to God and ask for forgiveness. I don't have to tell a priest so he can tell me if I say 10 hail Mary's I'll be absolved of that sin. That is ludacris. Jesus is our mediator to God not man.
And why, pray, can't a priest or minister be considered "one another"? Indeed, this piece of Biblical gold combined with the passage from John I provided in a prior post seems to indicate that ministers are the best people to confess your sins to- what's more, common sense would seem to dictate that if you are sinning, what better person to provide healing that a minister? I don't understand why it's ok for me to confess to anyone, just NOT a priest or a minister.
What's more, it should be noted that Jesus was a man. He commanded the disciples to carry out his work once he was gone, and if you deny THAT fact I will bust out more Bible verses than the software on this forum can safely handle
.
In addition, your rendition of confessions is almost ridiculously cynical- I can't speak for other Catholics on this matter, but I don't go to confession because I have to, I do so because I WANT to. Even if it were not "required", I think I would, because it is a truly glorious experience. I have lived far from a perfect life and committed sins beyond those which most Christians have, and a confession is the most gratifying and purifying experience I have ever had.
What's more, on a less Biblical note, the priests give darned good advice on how to combat your temptations. I know THAT from experience too. Confession cannot be said to be a bad thing on anyone's watch, not even fundamentalists'- if you were to look at it in a secular viewpoint, it's simply seeking council from a minister in your church. From a Biblical standpoint, there's sufficient ground to argue it and no ground to deny it.
And as a conclusion, I have yet to see you prove how the practice of Confession by the Catholic Church is against scripture, and thus how it denies "some Catholics" their Christianity.
The only thing that denies anyone of their Christianity is them not recieving Jesus as their Lord and Savior. And some Catholics fall into this category. I don't have a problem with confessing to a priest or minister. But THEY cannot forgive my sin. Who has the power to forgive sin but God? This is what the Pharasies asked Jesus when He forgave sin. (not realizing that Jesus was in fact God) And no doubt that a priest or minister can give good counseling but I hold fast to their inability to forgive sin.
WE are commanded to forgive the trespasses of others. That is when we are wronged. To forgive so that we may also be forgiven. Man does not have the power to absolve sin. And do you know what is written on the Pope's garment he wares? I don't know if its true, but I'll have to find it online and post it here to get your view.
EDIT: VICARIUS FILII DEI
THE LITERAL MEANING: VICARIUS - substituting for, or in place of
FILII - means son
DEI - means God
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:02 pm
by OnlyAmbrose
jay_a2j wrote:OnlyAmbrose wrote:Again, we'll get to the Mary and saints thing later. Back to Confession:
jay_a2j wrote:This boils down to difference of beliefs based on scripture interpretation.
CONFESSIONAL:
James 5:16- Therefore, confess your sins to one another, that you may be healed.
confess your sins to
one another not a priest or minister. I can go directly to God and ask for forgiveness. I don't have to tell a priest so he can tell me if I say 10 hail Mary's I'll be absolved of that sin. That is ludacris. Jesus is our mediator to God not man.
And why, pray, can't a priest or minister be considered "one another"? Indeed, this piece of Biblical gold combined with the passage from John I provided in a prior post seems to indicate that ministers are the best people to confess your sins to- what's more, common sense would seem to dictate that if you are sinning, what better person to provide healing that a minister? I don't understand why it's ok for me to confess to anyone, just NOT a priest or a minister.
What's more, it should be noted that Jesus was a man. He commanded the disciples to carry out his work once he was gone, and if you deny THAT fact I will bust out more Bible verses than the software on this forum can safely handle
.
In addition, your rendition of confessions is almost ridiculously cynical- I can't speak for other Catholics on this matter, but I don't go to confession because I have to, I do so because I WANT to. Even if it were not "required", I think I would, because it is a truly glorious experience. I have lived far from a perfect life and committed sins beyond those which most Christians have, and a confession is the most gratifying and purifying experience I have ever had.
What's more, on a less Biblical note, the priests give darned good advice on how to combat your temptations. I know THAT from experience too. Confession cannot be said to be a bad thing on anyone's watch, not even fundamentalists'- if you were to look at it in a secular viewpoint, it's simply seeking council from a minister in your church. From a Biblical standpoint, there's sufficient ground to argue it and no ground to deny it.
And as a conclusion, I have yet to see you prove how the practice of Confession by the Catholic Church is against scripture, and thus how it denies "some Catholics" their Christianity.
The only thing that denies anyone of their Christianity is them not recieving Jesus as their Lord and Savior. And some Catholics fall into this category. I don't have a problem with confessing to a priest or minister.
But THEY cannot forgive my sin. Who has the power to forgive sin but God? This is what the Pharasies asked Jesus when He forgave sin. (not realizing that Jesus was in fact God) And no doubt that a priest or minister can give good counseling but I hold fast to their inability to forgive sin. WE are commanded to forgive the trespasses of others. That is when we are wronged. To forgive so that we may also be forgiven. Man does not have the power to absolve sin. And do you know what is written on the Pope's garment he wares? I don't know if its true, but I'll have to find it online and post it here to get your view.
I will agree with you on the bolded point. But then... many non-Catholics fall into such a category as well. Though I do not deny that the Catholic Church is particularly unhealthy in terms of the faith of its following. The most I can do to improve this count is participate at my parish and try to set hearts afire with love of God. In any event, it's a plague which I hardly think affects the Catholic Church alone.
Now for the underlined portion. It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ that we are forgiven. The actual words the priests say in the confessional generally are something resembling the following:
Rite of Absolution wrote:God the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son, has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
You may deny it all you want, but the fact is that in the Bible, according to John, Jesus says thus:
"As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
It would seem to me that Jesus gives the disciples His power to forgive sins here. I fail to understand where there is room for you to claim that God did not give man the power to forgive sin when Jesus is quite clearly giving men the power to forgive sin right here.
And again, I have yet to see anything contrary to Scripture in this doctrine. Not that the absence of contrary evidence would automatically prove its validity, but you seemed to be claiming that it was a doctrine against Biblical teaching when you said the following:
jay_a2j wrote:There is some catholic doctrine that I find not lined up with scripture. (Praying to Mary/ Confessional are two examples)
So if you would like to try to prove that point before we continue, I'd appreciate it
As an aside, no, I'm not an expert on the Pope's wardrobe, sorry
Though I am interested in what you've got to say on the matter, so long as you address the above issues as well
EDIT-
Interesting statement there. Here's the wikipedia article, apparently it's something of a controversy... though since the Pope currently wears no such title I don't see the issue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicarius_Filii_Dei
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:35 pm
by jay_a2j
It must be a difference on interpreting scripture. I have been a Christian for over 20 years. In all that time I have NEVER heard a minister tell someone that he absolves thier sin.
What verse is this?
"As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
Its always good to read the verses before and after a scripture to make sure its not taken out of context.
"Retain sin" huh? I was under the belief that we were to forgive not retain.
When I need forgiveness I go to God. If you feel that you can't approach God and must instead go to a priest more power to you.
I read your link and it cleared it up for me. Thanks.