INTO THE DEEP (COMPLETE - Mafia Win !!)

[Ragian]

Pika's reply as a spoiler...

Spoiler

@Pika, who would you vote now? I mean, if you had to...

I'm not entirely sure, mainly I'm having a hard time sorting which of the bad plays are deliberately malicious and which are simply misguided. Even if you restrict it to actual claims, we already have three players who have made seemingly bad plays in that respect: First, jfm10 is an uncontested Doctor claim, but they claimed for no reason and now refuses to participate unless on the defensive. After that you have dakky21, who likewise claimed for no apparent reason, only to reveal it was some sort of misguided gambit to try tricking scum. Finally, Tobikera, who claimed solely to push for a lynch (on one of the more likely lynch candidates from Day 1) under an exceptionally poor line of reasoning. Tobikera has also lied at least once for absolutely no reason during Day 2 as far as I can surmise, "A healer was mentioned in my N1 info from the mod".

I still have my suspicions from Day 1 too, but it dawns on me that it may be possible to clear Metsfanmax if we lynch Tobikera and they flip Mafia.

I'll have a good look through some peoples' posts at some point, but most of Day 2 has been derailed by pure speculation so far, so unless I find something I missed from Day 1 I expect I'll be going for the two birds with one stone approach.

The three you mention seem to be trying to scumhunt or felt they were cornered. Whether any of that is true, I just don't see them being scum. Either of them. Also, lynching Tobi (whom I think is town) for the sole purpose of proving Mets is not scum if Tobi is scum is not something I can get behind at this moment.

Pika's second post...

Spoiler

At some point in the game, if we are 100% that Blacky is town (and we conclude the poisoner was passive), we may need him to tell us who he targeted N1 so the rest of us can avoid them.

I want to say who I targeted last night, but do not want to give that individual the time to prepare a defense story.
I am waiting to see if they reveal anything so I can trap them in a lie...

Unless you actually have something relatively concrete please don't claim based on passive-poisoner speculation and rolefishing by TX AG 90, speaking of, @Ragian TX AG 90 has certainly jumped up my list of lynch candidates for today.

Cheers

---

Blacky? What do you mean "before"?

Question for the group.

Are scum allowed to communicate with each other outside of voting on a night target? Or do they have to communicate openly on this board?

In other words, if Scum A used an ability to find out what Townie B's abilities are, could they message the rest of their scum buddy's?

I believe they can. I'm relatively new (and I have never been scum before) but I believe they have a messaging group independent of this thread where they communicate.

I'll address SW's posts later today.

[blacky365]

Blacky? What do you mean "before"?

Question for the group.

Are scum allowed to communicate with each other outside of voting on a night target? Or do they have to communicate openly on this board?

In other words, if Scum A used an ability to find out what Townie B's abilities are, could they message the rest of their scum buddy's?

I believe they can. I'm relatively new (and I have never been scum before) but I believe they have a messaging group independent of this thread where they communicate.

Well I was dammed with whatever I say here... Surely there is no point in me saying im not scum here... that is obvs still up for debate, as everyone is.

[Ragian]

I'll be the first to admit that English isn't my first language, but typing it like that surely means that you're scum now...

[blacky365]

I'll be the first to admit that English isn't my first language, but typing it like that surely means that you're scum now...

Huh? how do you figure? is what I wrote that cryptic?

[dakky21]

I believe that is a scum slip. He was "never a scum before" so he doesn't know how the night chat works but says "they have a messaging group independent of this thread where they communicate".

Other possibility is that he played games before and there was a night chat revealed (after the games ended) so he doesn't know if this game has a night chat.

anyway, as I said, I think it's a slip anyway.

unvote
vote Blacky

[TX AG 90]

Typical. We get a tiny snippet of information via CLAIMS (so not even confirmed), and the players think they're on a field trip.

All the new information, including the no night kill thing, tells us NOTHING yet in this game.

So can we stop wasting time and exposing town abilities and start to actually scumhunt.

We had counterwagons to jfm, we had obvious rolefishing, we have agenda driven day 2 posts.

Vote people based on actual things said and votes placed. Don't get distracted by setup or flavor. It's a noob trap.

In a more standard game, I would say that we probably don't have 3 people being targetted for a kill so one of them is definitely lying, but in this game it's too soon to tell.

OK, so I guess I fell into the noob trap. However, I'm not sure the best way to track scum via the votes. I've heard to look at who voted pershy and start there, but then I've heard don't look at pershy, scum wouldn't want to jump on that wagon and reveal themselves. So, this noob is caught in a loop.

The discouraging thing is that NONE of you vets have pointed a finger at anyone based on D1 voting. So, we have BuJaber saying we should analyze D1, but nobody is actually doing it.

One thing I do know is this - how we analyze things from D1 will depend on whether we feel jfm is town or scum.

Somebody start and I'll follow and learn.

[dakky21]

@ TX... As I said already I don't think this game was set up randomly and there is a possibility that veteran players are scum so these vets aren't even looking at D1 anymore. That would be Pika, chap, Mets, Skoffin etc.

[blacky365]

I believe that is a scum slip. He was "never a scum before" so he doesn't know how the night chat works but says "they have a messaging group independent of this thread where they communicate".

Other possibility is that he played games before and there was a night chat revealed (after the games ended) so he doesn't know if this game has a night chat.

anyway, as I said, I think it's a slip anyway.

unvote
vote Blacky

Clearly you are misreading what I said... but either way, you may as well waste your vote... I’ll be dead by D3 anyway

[dakky21]

Blacky, votes are overrated.. you can change them when you wish. My vote on you doesn't mean it will stay on you, but for now it will.

[jfm10]

The point is that I was attacked by scum.

These types of statements are exactly why you deserve scrutiny. What you claim to know for sure is that you were attacked. The bit about the attack being by scum is speculation, not a fact, as you state here. And in that same post, you state that you suspect there's also an SK. So the statement-as-fact "I was attacked by scum" is suspicious.

I am a honest flamingo - typing with bird feet is hard enough, but you should just trust this face.

The violent rivers sweep up all life in front of them as they rage towards the coast.
Combining with the high tides and mixing with the ocean currents, Mother Nature is cunning, and the marine life is adapting.
Who once was confined to fresh water can now thrive in the choppy surf.
In one small bay, peaceful and tranquil, the towering cliff face is only out sized by the depth of the water below.
{It is on this small reef where the species collide, but co-exist happily.... for a time.}

Flamingo don't live on small reefs so was this a joke that went over my head?

[Ragian]

I'll be the first to admit that English isn't my first language, but typing it like that surely means that you're scum now...

Huh? how do you figure? is what I wrote that cryptic?

Well, you said that you've never been scum before. That means that you're scum now. Otherwise, you would have said, "I've never been scum." Or perhaps it's colloquial language that I'm not aware of (like the difference between written and spoken Danish). That's why I was asking.

[blacky365]

I debated internally if I should include the word ‘before’ I added it to try to avoid being accused of this exact thing!
Also, it is a way I speak... I have never been scum before... as in not now or before

[Ragian]

However, it could also be seen as a slip of the tongue. "I look forward to playing a scum role. I have never been scum before."

[Ragian]

Honestly, Tobi' s logic is so flawed on the Mets case that's almost enoufh reason for me to vote him (put simply, modus ponens does not apply because we can't disprove that C, D or E could also explain what happened. We can't even really prove that A might = B because you've yet to prove that while redirected that Mets actually visited Blacky) but honestly, I fucked up day 1. I messed up when I read my role. I basically saw block mentioned in my role PM and thought I was a jailer (I even read it twice but maybe I should have waited until I was fully awake to read). What it actually was saying without quoting my role is that I prevent kill actions from reaching my target. Not that I prevent my targets actions.

I tried to ask JFM to clarify his role to keep from having to counter claim and I end up being wrong but I think I'm the only one barking that right now and I am not currently active enough to force the issue in a reasonable amount of time. Also, I admittedly may have been trying to avoid having to admit to such an embarrassing mistake.

Vote JFM

For the record, I did receive proof that my action was successful last night and it was not Skoffin.

So either a. Skoffi n was busdriven with the person I targeted. b. Skoffi n is lying. C. My target went for food and I prevented them from being killed that way or more unlikely, d. Skoffi n and my target were both targeted for kills.

I understand if people don't really believe me, it was a really newbiesque mistake, but if you do I would like to receive some kind of protection. Preferably something that could keep me from being role blocked.

I need some clarification here. You're voting jmf because you are of the belief that you have similar roles, right? Or what am I missing regarding your claim?

Why is it that you're tied with Skoffin all of a sudden?

[dakky21]

Rage, SW is essentially claiming to be a doctor (can prevent kills) and not that he is a roleblocker (can prevent target actions). That is a counter-claim to JFM, so let's see what JFM has to say about it.

[dakky21]

Which is btw scummy by itself as JFM posted after SW wrote that and obviously skimmed the counter claim part... i'm asking again and again, how much will jfm be treated for not scumhunting but only defensing and not participating? Only one sentence posts D2 which don't mean a thing. And only 4 of them... Scummarining to the max!

Jfm if you are really a doctor, I suggest you start posting more often like you did D1, and something more than one sentence per day...

[BuJaber]

The discouraging thing is that NONE of you vets have pointed a finger at anyone based on D1 voting. So, we have BuJaber saying we should analyze D1, but nobody is actually doing it.

I'm voting Tobikera who was one of the jfm voters, and he also has begun the day shading people who haven't posted when it was like less than 24 hours since the day began.

Even day 1 in the beginning he was going after darin for not posting.

In day 2 it's particularly suspickous because we have already had wagons and someone got lynched in day 1 so why wouldn't he scumhunt based on that by default.

Activity level is sometimes a scum tell, but a lot of the time it is not related to the game at all just real life stuff. In my opinion it is always better to go after people that actually have posts to analyze unless the person not posting is guiltied by association or power role result or possibly if town are having a difficult time agreeing on the lynch.

Typically it's easy for scum to go after these kind of players because they don't have to fake reasons for scumreading them.

[ZaBeast]

I basically saw block mentioned in my role PM and thought I was a jailer (I even read it twice but maybe I should have waited until I was fully awake to read). What it actually was saying without quoting my role is that I prevent kill actions from reaching my target. Not that I prevent my targets actions.

You're sure you only prevent killing actions and not everything (like an inverse roleblocker, for lack of a better term) right ? jfm claimed he prevented "all attacks" against his target. Depending on what constitutes an attack, that might be different, but I don't think it is likely we have 2 docs, so I'll vote jfm. I'll note I'm open to voting tobi as well, mostly because he played scummy (but imo his PR wouldn't be a big loss if he gets mislynched, as he claimed redirecting who doesn't know who the actual target is). I'd leave blacky for tomorrow, as he might die anyways we could waste a lynch. Think we should discuss him so the healer has a better idea whether to save him though.

@ TX... As I said already I don't think this game was set up randomly and there is a possibility that veteran players are scum so these vets aren't even looking at D1 anymore. That would be Pika, chap, Mets, Skoffin etc.

You said both

Are scum allowed to communicate with each other outside of voting on a night target? Or do they have to communicate openly on this board?

In other words, if Scum A used an ability to find out what Townie B's abilities are, could they message the rest of their scum buddy's?

Usually only at night

Again, I wasn't role fishing. I was just trying to gather whether a passive poisoner was possible. Blacky said enough without revealing anything. It was well played and I haven't asked for anything since.

I've been the most active scum hunter D1. I may be overly enthusiastic and barking up the wrong trees because this is my first go, but I'm definitely town.

Can people stop equating number of post with scumhunting ability/how town-aligned they are? I haven't seen much scumhunting D2 so far (including by me)
Also how has blacky "said enough"? He only stated he didn't want to give any information about who he targetted yet (which is fair, but you can't say it answers your initial question)

I still wonder if Blacky did something to trigger a poisoning. It would help if he shared his night action with us if it isn't too compromising.

aage and TX, why are you voting me? You don’t want to use information gathered from our failed lynch? You just want to go with your “gut”?

I'll remind you you were on the wagon as well

The point is that I was attacked by scum.

These types of statements are exactly why you deserve scrutiny. What you claim to know for sure is that you were attacked. The bit about the attack being by scum is speculation, not a fact, as you state here. And in that same post, you state that you suspect there's also an SK. So the statement-as-fact "I was attacked by scum" is suspicious.

Exactly what I was thinking. How is it known that it was scum? That part wasn't shared before...

As pointed out by pika, scum=mafia+any malicious 3rd party, so basically anybody with killing roles except vigs, which shouldn't use their power on N1

[TX AG 90]

Again, I wasn't role fishing. I was just trying to gather whether a passive poisoner was possible. Blacky said enough without revealing anything. It was well played and I haven't asked for anything since.

Can people stop equating number of post with scumhunting ability/how town-aligned they are? I haven't seen much scumhunting D2 so far (including by me)

Also how has blacky "said enough"? He only stated he didn't want to give any information about who he targetted yet (which is fair, but you can't say it answers your initial question)

I still wonder if Blacky did something to trigger a poisoning. It would help if he shared his night action with us if it isn't too compromising.

OK, I'll try to explain again. I was trying to figure out if Blacky did ANYTHING that night that could have gotten him passively poisoned, not what he did. Notice that I said "if it isn't too compromising". I didn't want him to reveal to much. If he would have said he went for food or did nothing, then we could have ruled out passive poisoner. But since he did take a night action that failed AND was poisoned that same night, a passive poisoner role is still very much in play.

[chapcrap]

Well, that last one sure was long, chap

Yeah, I started testing how much I could copy into a new post. I had all of that in one post previously. idk. Pretty frustrating from my side.

And I unvoted in order to mull over the possibilities. Weighing for and against. Trying to make the best decision for town in the long run. And I stand by my actions.

Now, I'll go huff and puff till Skoffin's house is back to normal.

This is what I was looking for. Why the unvote if the claim didn't matter? I don't think voting on pershy was scummy in itself. I don't even necessarily believe that leading the lynch, as you did, was scummy. However, I do believe that greater scrutiny should be given to that. Especially when the main reason (from my perspective) that they lynch ended up happening was due to your lead.

strike wolf... wow.

Rage, SW is essentially claiming to be a doctor (can prevent kills) and not that he is a roleblocker (can prevent target actions). That is a counter-claim to JFM, so let's see what JFM has to say about it.

jfm already posted and didn't respond.

With strike wolf claiming the same role as jfm, I feel like he is forcing us to lynch one of them. We have full claims from each now.

I was already leaning jfm as scum, so I'm going to go with that on this. vote jfm


@Ragian, for the semantics of blacky's potential scumslip, it could go either way. I missed it the first time I read it and after you brought it up, thought about it for a second. But, to me, the argument you are making is one I would make against someone as a technicality when they were really innocent of a thing and I didn't have anything else to go on against them. Not that you are doing that, just that it would be an argument of last resort mostly meant to irritate them instead of proving my point.

[Skoffin]

Question for the group.

Are scum allowed to communicate with each other outside of voting on a night target? Or do they have to communicate openly on this board?

In other words, if Scum A used an ability to find out what Townie B's abilities are, could they message the rest of their scum buddy's?

I believe they can. I'm relatively new (and I have never been scum before) but I believe they have a messaging group independent of this thread where they communicate.

How do you know this?

[Ragian]

Rage, SW is essentially claiming to be a doctor (can prevent kills) and not that he is a roleblocker (can prevent target actions). That is a counter-claim to JFM, so let's see what JFM has to say about it.

I got as much. And I even think that I wrote that in my post. But how does that relate to skoffin?

@Skoffin, why aren't you commenting on SW's post? And for the record, Blacky says that he believes mafia to have a message group independent of the game; he never said that he knew it to be true. I think you're acting well scummy.

vote Skoffin

Gotta say, I'm on the fence regarding JMF. I don't find it hard to believe that we would have two protective roles in a game this big. Especially, if there's a active/passive poisoner.

@Zabeast, are you trying to get everyone killed? You're voting JMF, you don't mind voting Tobi, and you seem to have no issue letting Blacky die. Do you think all of them are scum? That feels like a lot...

[ZaBeast]

Gotta say, I'm on the fence regarding JMF. I don't find it hard to believe that we would have two protective roles in a game this big. Especially, if there's a active/passive poisoner.

If blacky isn't lying and we have a poisonner, the healer would probably be another protective role as both SW and jfm claimed they prevented attacks, not that they could heal somebody after the fact (unless healing would be the 1-shot ability from looking for food). However, the main reason I am debating voting between tobi or jfm is that if you're right and there are duplicate roles, I'd rather lose tobi's than jfm's (as I estimate that their contributions in terms of discussion are similar). A minor element is also that if jfm is scum, it would give me a town read for a lot more people: you (for his vote on D1), dakky and SW. I don't really know who a scum tobi would give me a read on other than mets

@Zabeast, are you trying to get everyone killed? You're voting JMF, you don't mind voting Tobi, and you seem to have no issue letting Blacky die. Do you think all of them are scum? That feels like a lot...

I'm suspicious of everyone, but I would say these 3 are at the top of my scum list. About blacky, I just said I would wait to see if he dies before we consider trying to lynch him though.

[blacky365]

However, it could also be seen as a slip of the tongue. "I look forward to playing a scum role. I have never been scum before."

Question for the group.

Are scum allowed to communicate with each other outside of voting on a night target? Or do they have to communicate openly on this board?

In other words, if Scum A used an ability to find out what Townie B's abilities are, could they message the rest of their scum buddy's?

I believe they can. I'm relatively new (and I have never been scum before) but I believe they have a messaging group independent of this thread where they communicate.

How do you know this?

I have only played mafia with DBD before this game. Although I was not scum, the townies were made aware that scum had a group chat ability. So as far as I was aware all games have this same thing.
Rage, you know this very well so I do not understand why you are acting all confused here!
The lesson to be learnt here is that if someone asks a question I should not say anything because no matter what I say, my words will be twisted to fit the scum agenda!

[BuJaber]

However, it could also be seen as a slip of the tongue. "I look forward to playing a scum role. I have never been scum before."

Question for the group.

Are scum allowed to communicate with each other outside of voting on a night target? Or do they have to communicate openly on this board?

In other words, if Scum A used an ability to find out what Townie B's abilities are, could they message the rest of their scum buddy's?

I believe they can. I'm relatively new (and I have never been scum before) but I believe they have a messaging group independent of this thread where they communicate.

How do you know this?

I have only played mafia with DBD before this game. Although I was not scum, the townies were made aware that scum had a group chat ability. So as far as I was aware all games have this same thing.
Rage, you know this very well so I do not understand why you are acting all confused here!
The lesson to be learnt here is that if someone asks a question I should not say anything because no matter what I say, my words will be twisted to fit the scum agenda!

Ragian defended you on this point though???