Balance Not Included Come Back Mafia End Game: Mod Down!!!

[TimWoodbury]

i targeted mets, so with that from my understanding of the role if he was targeted to be killed then there would of been names of a player or players added into the scene (it says announced in game i assume it means scene)

[legionnare]

Before Legion answers, I targeted him for the night and my action was changed to a role block.
Paraphrasing here to avoid a quote, but "Your action was interfered and is now changed to a block for the night and applies to the target."

Can confirm that my action was blocked, however I have never heard of a role that allows you to change what a persons action is so find it somewhat sceptical information.

[legionnare]

So now that Ragian has flipped scum we know for a certainty what happened N1; it happened as I claimed, I delayed Ragians kill action which meant he got to reselect a target during the day. Mitch claimed cop and was killed so I think we should look at those who put pressure on Mitch forcing him to claim.
As for N2 it's possible that a doctor or some such got lucky and picked the right target but another idea that comes to me is that Mafia have to pick between blocking or killing during the night and chose to block me to stop me getting lucky again?

[Skoffin]

Yes, I agree that it seems that Ragian was delayed and re-selected Mitch in the day. However, I don't think it likely that mafia can choose to block *or* kill. That would essentially cripple the scum team in a game where there appears to be plenty of town power roles. No, likely that the mafia kill was prevented in another way.
I'm unsure of what role would alter another player's ability and will look into it, but it would make sense for scum (if they have such an ability) to target DDS in order to block Legion. IF, however, a townie had that ability and targeted DDS then I suggest they come forward as they would essentially clear another town member for us.
So I'm pegging it as either doctor save or similar.

Still a tad confused on what Tim is saying, but I've deemed that unimportant for now and will consider that later.

[dakky21]

Before Legion answers, I targeted him for the night and my action was changed to a role block.
Paraphrasing here to avoid a quote, but "Your action was interfered and is now changed to a block for the night and applies to the target."

This is getting really weird.

I targeted you and got the result that Nag visited Samlen... paraphrasing to avoid a quote is similar. I guessed you are a watcher or something like that and you targeted Samlen, but as you say you targeted Legion so that means we were all shifted around with actions... lol... not good.

[DirtyDishSoap]

Yes, I agree that it seems that Ragian was delayed and re-selected Mitch in the day. However, I don't think it likely that mafia can choose to block *or* kill. That would essentially cripple the scum team in a game where there appears to be plenty of town power roles. No, likely that the mafia kill was prevented in another way.
I'm unsure of what role would alter another player's ability and will look into it, but it would make sense for scum (if they have such an ability) to target DDS in order to block Legion. IF, however, a townie had that ability and targeted DDS then I suggest they come forward as they would essentially clear another town member for us.
So I'm pegging it as either doctor save or similar.

Still a tad confused on what Tim is saying, but I've deemed that unimportant for now and will consider that later.

I've heard of town criers before, but they're used entirely differently by being able to "talk" (or yell, however you want to discern it) during the night. However, it wouldn't make sense for a role like that on a forum game.

And now that we have Dakky somewhat saying he is also an investigating role.

This....This is really confusing.

[Samlen]

ok so now i have a hot potato waffle that might explode today. Or it might explode to whomever I pass it on to tonight or it might explode in 5 days. Things are getting all the more interesting! I'd have preferred hearing if legion came out with being roleblocked last night before you claimed it, dds, since if he hadn't then it could've been more cause for suspicion. But now legion can only confirm it and we won't get much more info than that.

LOL can I ask if you did a night action last night?

Seeeecret. But in all seriousness, I didn't do anything last night other than twiddle my thumbs.

Before Legion answers, I targeted him for the night and my action was changed to a role block.
Paraphrasing here to avoid a quote, but "Your action was interfered and is now changed to a block for the night and applies to the target."

This is getting really weird.

I targeted you and got the result that Nag visited Samlen... paraphrasing to avoid a quote is similar. I guessed you are a watcher or something like that and you targeted Samlen, but as you say you targeted Legion so that means we were all shifted around with actions... lol... not good.

oooo does this mean I can thank nag for gifting me this potato waffle?

[dakky21]

oooo does this mean I can thank nag for gifting me this potato waffle?

not exactly I think... I got potato waffle N1 and passed it to you N2. Sorry, had to give it to someone

[nagerous]

ok so now i have a hot potato waffle that might explode today. Or it might explode to whomever I pass it on to tonight or it might explode in 5 days. Things are getting all the more interesting! I'd have preferred hearing if legion came out with being roleblocked last night before you claimed it, dds, since if he hadn't then it could've been more cause for suspicion. But now legion can only confirm it and we won't get much more info than that.

LOL can I ask if you did a night action last night?

Seeeecret. But in all seriousness, I didn't do anything last night other than twiddle my thumbs.

Before Legion answers, I targeted him for the night and my action was changed to a role block.
Paraphrasing here to avoid a quote, but "Your action was interfered and is now changed to a block for the night and applies to the target."

This is getting really weird.

I targeted you and got the result that Nag visited Samlen... paraphrasing to avoid a quote is similar. I guessed you are a watcher or something like that and you targeted Samlen, but as you say you targeted Legion so that means we were all shifted around with actions... lol... not good.

oooo does this mean I can thank nag for gifting me this potato waffle?

I can confirm that I visited though know nowt about the potato waffle looks like Dakky has 'fessed up to that.

Was hoping I would get your answer before it was revealed I visited you but seems inconsequential now

[Djfireside]

so DDS and Nag were switched. The fact that DDS role switched to role block is something that is a bit skeptical. I would say that its cover for someone else but with the strange balance Im friggin lost. I was coming to grill Tim on his statement earlier but in rereading it I guess I understand their role and I guess it makes sense.

[DirtyDishSoap]

so DDS and Nag were switched. The fact that DDS role switched to role block is something that is a bit skeptical. I would say that its cover for someone else but with the strange balance Im friggin lost. I was coming to grill Tim on his statement earlier but in rereading it I guess I understand their role and I guess it makes sense.

As I said, I have never heard of a role like that before, and I have nothing to gain by openly admitting about being switched to a role block.

Someone clue me in about the waffle because I'm lost on that one.

[nagerous]

Sam, 2 nights of choosing not to use the night action, 2 nights with no deaths.

Do you not like the night action you were given/concerned it may be dangerous?

[Skoffin]

Players:
1. Metsfanmax - Role/Name/Action Unknown
2. Samlen - Role/Name/Action unknown, claims to have an action but chose to do nothing N1 and N2. Received a potato waffle bomb N2.
3. Dakky - Role/Name/Action unknown. Targeted DDS N2, instead got the result that Nag visited Samlen. Gave the potato waffle bomb to Sam N2.

5. Dr fireside - Role/Name/Action unknown
6. Tim - Name unknown, claims Town Crier and selected Mets N2. Nothing happens
7. DirtyDishsoap - Town Watcher/Owl No visits N1 on Fircoal, selects Legion N2 but his watch action is turned into a roleblock. Blocks Legion

9. Chu - Role/Name/Action unknown
10. Legion - Name unknown, role claims Flasher. Can select a target and delay their action until the day phase where they reselect. Picked Ragian N1 and found scum. Roleblocked N2.
11. Skoffin - Unknown, claims to have been made night immune N1 and N2
12. Nag - Role/Name/Action unknown. Visited Sam N2

Dead:
4. Mitch -Jack Ventura People Detective -Town Cop killed D2
8. Ragian-The Guy Who Rigged the Prom King Vote-Mafia Double Voter Lynched D2


Here is a rundown on things claimed thus far. If you agree with what has been written then state so, otherwise point out what I have left out. If you do not respond to this at all then it is default assumed that you agree it is correct and trying to change that info later will be deemed suspicious.


It looks like we have a Reflector/deflector in the mix at the vest least. I'm going to assume that role is scum sided unless someone states otherwise. IF that role is a townie then I suggest they target me tonight as a way to let us know without claiming.
Interesting is the potato waffle bomb, and who may have started that chain. Is that possibly what the role 'gifter' does? Well Sam, I hope you plan to pass it to someone that seems scummy XD I imagine that the mod is rolling dice each time it is passed to determine if it goes off or not.

I'm leaving Dakky off my scum list for now, along with tim, Legion and DDS. Interesting to note that since I called chu as possible scum he hasn't posted here but has been in the other game. I think Chu is going for a dodge roll.

[Fircoal]

I'm leaving Dakky off my scum list for now, along with tim, Legion and DDS. Interesting to note that since I called chu as possible scum he hasn't posted here but has been in the other game. I think Chu is going for a dodge roll.

Or I just don't have much to say? Right now I'm letting the people who have lots of info talk. I don't really have anything that I wish to share atm. Besides that game is close to lynch, this one is not, so my focus is shifted towards there rather than here.

[Samlen]

Sam, 2 nights of choosing not to use the night action, 2 nights with no deaths.

Do you not like the night action you were given/concerned it may be dangerous?

I'm being purposefully ambiguous since clarifying would only help scum and not town. It could be one-time use, it could be incredibly dangerous, or it might not even exist at all. Unless it's needed to help catch scum I will not say anything else about it.

[nagerous]

Sam, 2 nights of choosing not to use the night action, 2 nights with no deaths.

Do you not like the night action you were given/concerned it may be dangerous?

I'm being purposefully ambiguous since clarifying would only help scum and not town. It could be one-time use, it could be incredibly dangerous, or it might not even exist at all. Unless it's needed to help catch scum I will not say anything else about it.

Your whole case in regards to militantly defending ragian was that you didn't use your night action so your new found ambiguity has to be treated as unhelpful/suspicious

[Skoffin]

I'm leaving Dakky off my scum list for now, along with tim, Legion and DDS. Interesting to note that since I called chu as possible scum he hasn't posted here but has been in the other game. I think Chu is going for a dodge roll.

Or I just don't have much to say? Right now I'm letting the people who have lots of info talk. I don't really have anything that I wish to share atm. Besides that game is close to lynch, this one is not, so my focus is shifted towards there rather than here.

You could at least make some form of response to me basically accusing you of scum, no?

Sam, 2 nights of choosing not to use the night action, 2 nights with no deaths.

Do you not like the night action you were given/concerned it may be dangerous?

I'm being purposefully ambiguous since clarifying would only help scum and not town. It could be one-time use, it could be incredibly dangerous, or it might not even exist at all. Unless it's needed to help catch scum I will not say anything else about it.

Your whole case in regards to militantly defending ragian was that you didn't use your night action so your new found ambiguity has to be treated as unhelpful/suspicious

'New found'? He has been ambiguous from the start. I don't see the value in your line of questioning as what's he going to say. He's obviously going to respond with "Well I'm a vig" or something of that nature.
I see no reason to be prodding him on it unless you believe he is scum and want a roleclaim to determine if you will lynch him.

[Fircoal]

I'm leaving Dakky off my scum list for now, along with tim, Legion and DDS. Interesting to note that since I called chu as possible scum he hasn't posted here but has been in the other game. I think Chu is going for a dodge roll.

Or I just don't have much to say? Right now I'm letting the people who have lots of info talk. I don't really have anything that I wish to share atm. Besides that game is close to lynch, this one is not, so my focus is shifted towards there rather than here.

You could at least make some form of response to me basically accusing you of scum, no?

This is what you said:

* Chu was open to lynching Ragian but during discussions he conveniently swapped to Sam for suspecting Nag due to Nag's stance on Ragian. Ultimately this meant that regardless of what chu said about Ragian's scumminess, he diverted from that lynch to put attention elsewhere. I'm putting him in possible scum territory.

And really I'm mixed. Yes I valued a Sam lynch higher than a Ragian lynch, and that's because I found Samlen's comment scummier than Ragian. I felt like Ragain was a fine lynch due to the information that we could get from lynching him, however up until Legion reread his role pm I thought Samlen is scummier.

Actually the thing I don't get about your idea of me being possible scum is that you excuse Samlen for doing the same thing (forgoing Ragian to try to put pressure on Nag), which the only difference being that he trusted Ragian, and I didn't. It's a bit baffling how much you seem to trust him. (Honestly, it feels like you think that I'm scummy this game no matter what I do, while you seem to think Sam is town this game no matter what he does or what the results are. This is also why I didn't respond at first.)

Yes I did go for Sam instead of Ragian that is true. I do think my reasons were perfectly valid and even knowing the result I do think at that point in time that was the right case to make.


Something else that I find really interesting on second thought. All of myself, Sam, Skoffin, DJ, and Tim in that order visited the thread on lynch day. Ragian at that point was at L-1 and the new information from Legion made him seem scummier. I'd imagine it was 99% certain he was going to be lynched. So then why did no one vote him? I would imagine if there was a scum there it'd be an easy way to hammer and then be one of those on the scum lynch. And the scum would know it too so they'd know that they'd look good with that hammer. So in that sense it's interesting that no one did take the hammer.

[Fircoal]

For the record I'm not as sure if Samlen is scum at this point. I still do think that his vote of Nagerous was scummy, but I do also realize that protecting a scum member while scum is very risky. (Meanwhile I think attaching yourself to a town member as scum is a wonderful thing for scum. ) It's certainly still possible and it does make sense for scum to protect their buddy but it is also risky.

[Samlen]

Sam, 2 nights of choosing not to use the night action, 2 nights with no deaths.

Do you not like the night action you were given/concerned it may be dangerous?

I'm being purposefully ambiguous since clarifying would only help scum and not town. It could be one-time use, it could be incredibly dangerous, or it might not even exist at all. Unless it's needed to help catch scum I will not say anything else about it.

Your whole case in regards to militantly defending ragian was that you didn't use your night action so your new found ambiguity has to be treated as unhelpful/suspicious

Revealing would still be of no help to town. Yes I believed ragian because it was an easily disprovable claim and yes it was a mistake. I still do not see a good enough reason to out my action as it has had no impact on the game so far.

[nagerous]

I'm leaving Dakky off my scum list for now, along with tim, Legion and DDS. Interesting to note that since I called chu as possible scum he hasn't posted here but has been in the other game. I think Chu is going for a dodge roll.

Or I just don't have much to say? Right now I'm letting the people who have lots of info talk. I don't really have anything that I wish to share atm. Besides that game is close to lynch, this one is not, so my focus is shifted towards there rather than here.

You could at least make some form of response to me basically accusing you of scum, no?

Sam, 2 nights of choosing not to use the night action, 2 nights with no deaths.

Do you not like the night action you were given/concerned it may be dangerous?

I'm being purposefully ambiguous since clarifying would only help scum and not town. It could be one-time use, it could be incredibly dangerous, or it might not even exist at all. Unless it's needed to help catch scum I will not say anything else about it.

Your whole case in regards to militantly defending ragian was that you didn't use your night action so your new found ambiguity has to be treated as unhelpful/suspicious

'New found'? He has been ambiguous from the start. I don't see the value in your line of questioning as what's he going to say. He's obviously going to respond with "Well I'm a vig" or something of that nature.
I see no reason to be prodding him on it unless you believe he is scum and want a roleclaim to determine if you will lynch him.

It is what I do, I put pressure, tighten the taps, try and squeeze people I don't trust for information hoping for a slip up. Instead I am being stonewalled with the basic excuse that revealing information won't help us and I think that is just a front for hidden criminality. I don't know what you expect from me if you think I shouldn't be following this course of action - should I just be staying silent?

You can understand that I am less likely to find fircoal suspicious when everyone was calling me out for being scummy for promoting the ragian lynch he was the one person who said that I was making valid points. He may not have voted him in the end but his input went a long way in leading the town to the path they chose at close of play day one which was ultimately the correct one. I am more suspicious of your play day one

[Fircoal]

Hold on. We forgot something important here.

Remember how we were saying that it was a risky move for Ragian to claim jailer when he could be easily disproven if he wasn't? Well as it turns out Ragian was not a jailer nor even a roleblocker. This leaves two different scenarios. One is that there is a mafia jailer somewhere on the mafia team. This means they blocked Sam N1 and thusly he could get away with that claim. Or two that he didn't know of a roleblocker and risked it all on the what his blockee would say. Now if Sam was town this would be incredibly risky. Unless he somehow knew that Sam didn't use his action he'd be setting himself up for instant death. However if Sam was scum there are three different scenarios that can result:

Scenario A: Sam claims that he was blocked. Since this would be an easily identifiable lie it sets Sam up to die right after Ragian. While it would make Ragian look more likely like he's telling the truth it does attach the two of them together.

Scenario B: Sam claims that Ragian was lying. He becomes a traitor and leads the Ragian lynch. While scum lose a number Sam looks a lot more pro-town to everyone because he outed a scum. There would be no way to tell Sam is a scum outting a partner versus a true townie who had no reason to lie.

Scenario C: What happened. That being Sam went on the fence, not clearing Ragian but also not sinking him. This is sort of the median. Sam isn't attached to Ragian like he would be in A, but it didn't help out his case as much.

Here's the important part. The results of Ragian throwing the choice over to a scummate is much better than throwing it over to a random unless he knew that the random would back hiim up. A townie would surely throw him under the bus and earn cred. Something the scum would loathe. So obviously throw it to a scummate so that either they get the cred, or the scum gets a better chance of surviving.

Given this and Sam's play this leads me to believe that they are scummates together. Because really I see only two choices, either Ragian knew that someone else on the mafia team had blocked Sam (or knew he had no action) or Sam is scum. Personally I feel the latter is more likely at this point. Vote: Samlen

[Metsfanmax]

Hold on. We forgot something important here.

Remember how we were saying that it was a risky move for Ragian to claim jailer when he could be easily disproven if he wasn't? Well as it turns out Ragian was not a jailer nor even a roleblocker. This leaves two different scenarios. One is that there is a mafia jailer somewhere on the mafia team. This means they blocked Sam N1 and thusly he could get away with that claim. Or two that he didn't know of a roleblocker and risked it all on the what his blockee would say. Now if Sam was town this would be incredibly risky. Unless he somehow knew that Sam didn't use his action he'd be setting himself up for instant death. However if Sam was scum there are three different scenarios that can result:

Scenario A: Sam claims that he was blocked. Since this would be an easily identifiable lie it sets Sam up to die right after Ragian. While it would make Ragian look more likely like he's telling the truth it does attach the two of them together.

Scenario B: Sam claims that Ragian was lying. He becomes a traitor and leads the Ragian lynch. While scum lose a number Sam looks a lot more pro-town to everyone because he outed a scum. There would be no way to tell Sam is a scum outting a partner versus a true townie who had no reason to lie.

Scenario C: What happened. That being Sam went on the fence, not clearing Ragian but also not sinking him. This is sort of the median. Sam isn't attached to Ragian like he would be in A, but it didn't help out his case as much.

Here's the important part. The results of Ragian throwing the choice over to a scummate is much better than throwing it over to a random unless he knew that the random would back hiim up. A townie would surely throw him under the bus and earn cred. Something the scum would loathe. So obviously throw it to a scummate so that either they get the cred, or the scum gets a better chance of surviving.

Given this and Sam's play this leads me to believe that they are scummates together. Because really I see only two choices, either Ragian knew that someone else on the mafia team had blocked Sam (or knew he had no action) or Sam is scum. Personally I feel the latter is more likely at this point. Vote: Samlen

Ok but the entirety of your argument rests on the claim that the mafia do not have a jailer, and thus that Ragian had to pick someone safe to claim he blocked. It seems quite likely to me at least that the alternate hypothesis is correct: mafia have a jailer and Ragian knew he could rely on that. In retrospect it seems actually more likely than him concocting a story about Samlen without a jailing having occurred on Samlen, even if they are scum partners.

[Fircoal]

Hold on. We forgot something important here.

Remember how we were saying that it was a risky move for Ragian to claim jailer when he could be easily disproven if he wasn't? Well as it turns out Ragian was not a jailer nor even a roleblocker. This leaves two different scenarios. One is that there is a mafia jailer somewhere on the mafia team. This means they blocked Sam N1 and thusly he could get away with that claim. Or two that he didn't know of a roleblocker and risked it all on the what his blockee would say. Now if Sam was town this would be incredibly risky. Unless he somehow knew that Sam didn't use his action he'd be setting himself up for instant death. However if Sam was scum there are three different scenarios that can result:

Scenario A: Sam claims that he was blocked. Since this would be an easily identifiable lie it sets Sam up to die right after Ragian. While it would make Ragian look more likely like he's telling the truth it does attach the two of them together.

Scenario B: Sam claims that Ragian was lying. He becomes a traitor and leads the Ragian lynch. While scum lose a number Sam looks a lot more pro-town to everyone because he outed a scum. There would be no way to tell Sam is a scum outting a partner versus a true townie who had no reason to lie.

Scenario C: What happened. That being Sam went on the fence, not clearing Ragian but also not sinking him. This is sort of the median. Sam isn't attached to Ragian like he would be in A, but it didn't help out his case as much.

Here's the important part. The results of Ragian throwing the choice over to a scummate is much better than throwing it over to a random unless he knew that the random would back hiim up. A townie would surely throw him under the bus and earn cred. Something the scum would loathe. So obviously throw it to a scummate so that either they get the cred, or the scum gets a better chance of surviving.

Given this and Sam's play this leads me to believe that they are scummates together. Because really I see only two choices, either Ragian knew that someone else on the mafia team had blocked Sam (or knew he had no action) or Sam is scum. Personally I feel the latter is more likely at this point. Vote: Samlen

Ok but the entirety of your argument rests on the claim that the mafia do not have a jailer, and thus that Ragian had to pick someone safe to claim he blocked. It seems quite likely to me at least that the alternate hypothesis is correct: mafia have a jailer and Ragian knew he could rely on that. In retrospect it seems actually more likely than him concocting a story about Samlen without a jailing having occurred on Samlen, even if they are scum partners.

Considering we have heard of this sneaky role that targeted DDS that seems like a mafia role I'm not sure if we have a mafia jailer or not. With 12 players I'd imagine a mafia size of 3, which means 2 powers left to be had, and if it's that switchy role thing that I have no idea what to call is one of them that'd mean the last one is the mafia jailer. *shrugs* Of course that's more assumptions. It's certainly possible. But as I see it it's either the mafia has a jailer or Sam is scum.

[Samlen]

That's assuming the role that targeted dds is a mafia role AND that one of the other roles isn't a jailer/roleblocking role, both rather large assumptions in a game where anything can happen. Maybe the role that targeted dds is a survivor role that uses it's power to try and negate people likely to target them? If we have a host willing to put in a role that delays actions or changes actions to roleblocking, then anything can happen. The only thing we can go off of is how people act, which is hard to judge considering all the mindgames that could be played. Example: Ragian voted for nag, so maybe he was trying to get a bandwagon onto an innocent townie to waste one of our lynches or maybe he's a scum teammate and he used the vote to deflect suspicion from whichever one survived. Gotta for now but i'll talk more later.