Page 3 of 6
Re: What type of Government actually works?
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:42 pm
by tzor
btownmeggy wrote:The United States IS a democracy. Please inform your social studies teacher ASAP.
What it is now and what it was then are two completely different things. Remember in the original US Constitution members of the House of Representatives were directly elected by the people, but the members of the Senate were elected by state legislatures.
Wiki' wrote:As originally established, Senators were elected by the Legislature of the State they represented in the Senate. If a senator died, resigned, or was expelled, the legislature of the state would appoint a replacement to serve out the remainder of the senator's term. If the State Legislature was not in session, its Governor could appoint a temporary replacement to serve until the legislature could elect a permanent replacement. This was superseded by the Seventeenth Amendment, which provided for the Popular Election of Senators, instead of their appointment by the State Legislature. In a nod to the less populist nature of the Senate, the Amendment tracks the vacancy procedures for the House of Representatives in requiring that the Governor call a special election to fill the vacancy, but (unlike in the House) it vests in the State Legislature the authority to allow the Governor to appoint a temporary replacement until the special election is held. Note, however, that under the original Constitution, the Governors of the states were expressly allowed by the Constitution to make temporary appointments. The current system, under the Seventeenth Amendment, allows Governors to appoint a replacement only if their state legislature has previously decided to allow the Governor to do so; otherwise, the seat must remain vacant until the special election is held to fill the seat, as in the case of a vacancy in the House.
The election of the president was also a function of the State. While all states adopted popular votes, this is not actually required in the original Constitution.
Constitution wrote:Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.
Here we can see that, as originally created, the Federal government was no democracy. It is clearly based on democratic principles, but only provides minor democratic powers to the general populace.
Re: What type of Government actually works?
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:45 pm
by btownmeggy
muy_thaiguy wrote:"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and
to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Also, this link should help clarify more.
http://byrd.senate.gov/speech-repub.htm
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracyJust... read it.
I know what you and tzor are trying to say, and, duh, I agree, but you're being ridiculous correcting someone for saying that the US is a democracy... IT IS.
Re: What type of Government actually works?
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:49 pm
by muy_thaiguy
btownmeggy wrote:muy_thaiguy wrote:"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and
to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Also, this link should help clarify more.
http://byrd.senate.gov/speech-repub.htm
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracyJust... read it.
I know what you and tzor are trying to say, and, duh, I agree, but you're being ridiculous correcting someone for saying that the US is a democracy... IT IS.
I did. Now read what it has to say on a Republic.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Republic
Re: What type of Government actually works?
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:03 pm
by Neoteny
I think that squarely nests a republic into a democracy.
Re: What type of Government actually works?
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:20 pm
by muy_thaiguy
Neoteny wrote:I think that squarely nests a republic into a democracy.
A Democracy is run directly by the people. A Republic is run by Representatives voted by the people. They are similar, but different.
Re: What type of Government actually works?
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:50 pm
by btownmeggy
muy_thaiguy wrote:A Democracy is run directly by the people. A Republic is run by Representatives voted by the people. They are similar, but different.
The hair-splitting you're working on would be better explained as a "PURE DEMOCRACY" (look that one up?). This phrase "pure democracy" exists because just plain old "democracy" does not intrinsically have those connotations.
Re: What type of Government actually works?
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:09 pm
by suggs
Pedronicus wrote:Here are the combined top 10 happiest countries according to separate studies from the University of Leicester in the UK and Erasmus University in Rotterdam, the latter of which had 953 indicators (!):
* 1 Denmark
* 2 Switzerland
* 3 Austria
* 4 Iceland
* 5 Bahamas
* 6 Finland
* 7 Sweden
* 8 Bhutan
* 9 Brunei
* 10 Canada
Most of Scandinavia is in the top ten. They're obviously doing something right.
Denmark has recently emerged as the world’s happiest country, ..... average is about 40-45% income tax and with 25% VAT, it isn’t cheap to live in Denmark. I doubt they spend too much on defence, most of their taxes are spent on the people that live there.
Unless you've left America and been to other countries (Ideally in Europe) - please don't think that America is the right way to run a country.
Finland has the highest per capita sucide rate in the world. So their obviously not that happy.
EDIT: Sorry, should have read the previous posts!
Re: What type of Government actually works?
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:12 pm
by tzor
suggs wrote:Finland has the highest per capita sucide rate in the world. So their obviously not that happy.
No they are quite happy, because all the unhappy ones have killed themselves.
Re: What type of Government actually works?
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:12 pm
by suggs
Thaiguy, I think Megs has shown you're talking out of your arse.
But the USA IS A DEMOCRACY. People vote for the leaders. Demos=people. Democracy=rule by the people.
Sort it out.
Re: What type of Government actually works?
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:24 pm
by tzor
Sorry, but when in Rome you do as the Romans do and the fact is that in the 18th century when the founding fathers created the Constitution, "Democracy" was always considered in the direct Greek City State manner. It was also a four letter word because people feared that democracy would lead to land reform. This is why Jefferson would call his political party the Democratic Republican Party.
Over time the words got blurred. Today they are nearly identical, but not then. Besides they weren't really democratic at all, a lot of people wanted to limit the vote to those who owned land. Women couldn't vote, unlike their neighbors in the Iriquois Confederacy. Some minority religions (Jews) were denied the right to vote as well in some states. Slaves couldn't vote but they were counted as partial people for purposes of the census.
Re: What type of Government actually works?
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:25 pm
by Ntetos
The people don't actually rule. It is more of oligarchy (the few and rich rule). In ancient Greece, in oligarchic city-states the people were electing their leaders, for example in Sparta there were the 5 eforoi.
Re: What type of Government actually works?
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:33 pm
by suggs
Ntetos wrote:The people don't actually rule. It is more of oligarchy (the few and rich rule). In ancient Greece, in oligarchic city-states the people were electing their leaders, for example in Sparta there were the 5 eforoi.
Thats a matter of debate. But the USA is at least a formal democracy, as the people have the final say on who rule, and in theory the government represent the people.
I hear what you are saying, in reality maybe the people don't really rule, but at least theoretically the USA is a democracy.
Re: What type of Government actually works?
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:37 pm
by Ntetos
suggs wrote:Ntetos wrote:The people don't actually rule. It is more of oligarchy (the few and rich rule). In ancient Greece, in oligarchic city-states the people were electing their leaders, for example in Sparta there were the 5 eforoi.
Thats a matter of debate. But the USA is at least a formal democracy, as the people have the final say on who rule, and in theory the government represent the people.
I hear what you are saying, in reality maybe the people don't really rule, but at least theoretically the USA is a democracy.
Yes, USA obviously is among the most democratic states. I wasn't talking about USA only, this is how it is in all democratic states of the world.
Re: What type of Government actually works?
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:02 pm
by PLAYER57832
I have not yet read through the entire post (sorry .. I will), but I want to add one someone ironic thought.
The old Testament of the Bible actually has a pretty good cross section of the various forms of government and, if you take it from a certain perspective, show what happens to each in the long run,
Just a thought to add to the mix....
Re: What type of Government actually works?
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:47 pm
by InkL0sed
I heard a quote from I don't remember where, that went something like "It doesn't matter what government you think you have, because you always have an oligarchy."
Re: What type of Government actually works?
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:48 pm
by Neoteny
InkL0sed wrote:I heard a quote from I don't remember where, that went something like "It doesn't matter what government you think you have, because you always have an oligarchy."
I've heard that as well. It's a rather broad term.
Re: What type of Government actually works?
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:23 pm
by Jenos Ridan
btownmeggy wrote:muy_thaiguy wrote:My point was that both the Uk and the USA have been Liberal Democracies for hundreds of years, and its worked out pretty well.
The US is not, repeat NOT now, nor was not even founded, as a Democracy. It is a Constitutional Republic. And it was, before that, a Confederacy (though only for a short time).
One of the key points to communication is understanding that most words have more than one meaning. The meaning you're trumpeting as the only correct one is not even the most common usage.
The United States IS a democracy. Please inform your social studies teacher ASAP.
Not according to the US Constition, it calls itself a republic. In fact, the writers of the thing called the government it formed a Republic. For some one who appears to be educated and expericened in the rest of the world (btw, this American is FULLY aware that there are nations outside my state's boundaries, and no, I don't count being to British Columbia as being in another nation), you surprise me with this gap in your knowledge. "Common usage" is just an excuse of intellectual laziness.
Re: What type of Government actually works?
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:33 pm
by ParadiceCity9
Anarchism works pretty well, I hear.
Re: What type of Government actually works?
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:45 pm
by Jenos Ridan
ParadiceCity9 wrote:Anarchism works pretty well, I hear.
Only if you can count your population on your fingers and toes.
Re: What type of Government actually works?
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:18 pm
by tzor
Jenos Ridan wrote:ParadiceCity9 wrote:Anarchism works pretty well, I hear.
Only if you can count your population on your fingers and toes.
Assuming you have good control of your toes, if you use
chisenbop you can count up to 10,000. If you use a binary method you can count up to 1,048,576.
You realize
is 11 in chisenbop.
Re: What type of Government actually works?
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:22 pm
by Jenos Ridan
tzor wrote:Jenos Ridan wrote:ParadiceCity9 wrote:Anarchism works pretty well, I hear.
Only if you can count your population on your fingers and toes.
Assuming you have good control of your toes, if you use
chisenbop you can count up to 10,000. If you use a binary method you can count up to 1,048,576.
You realize
is 11 in chisenbop.
Funny. I'm not very good at math, but I know a math joke when I read one.
You know the point I was making.
Re: What type of Government actually works?
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:23 pm
by ParadiceCity9
tzor wrote:Jenos Ridan wrote:ParadiceCity9 wrote:Anarchism works pretty well, I hear.
Only if you can count your population on your fingers and toes.
Assuming you have good control of your toes, if you use
chisenbop you can count up to 10,000. If you use a binary method you can count up to 1,048,576.
You realize
is 11 in chisenbop.
I never did understand binary...
OOO ASTROPHYSICS!!! COOL!
We have to talk some time
Re: What type of Government actually works?
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:19 pm
by muy_thaiguy
suggs wrote:Thaiguy, I think Megs has shown you're talking out of your arse.
But the USA IS A DEMOCRACY. People vote for the leaders. Demos=people. Democracy=rule by the people.
Sort it out.
No, the US is now, and was founded as a Republic. To be very specific, a Constitutional Federal Republic. The Constitution is the law of the land and basis for all of the laws in the country, not the majority. Encyclopedia Britannica AND Wikipedia for starters both call the US as such.
http://www.britannica.com/nations/United-Stateshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAnd even meggy's merriamwebster says the US is as such.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary
Re: What type of Government actually works?
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:43 pm
by jonesthecurl
InkL0sed wrote:I heard a quote from I don't remember where, that went something like "It doesn't matter what government you think you have, because you always have an oligarchy."
That would be either (a ) Michael Foot or (b) me quoting Foot in one of th CC threads ( I forget which)
Re: What type of Government actually works?
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:51 am
by PLAYER57832
muy_thaiguy wrote:suggs wrote:Thaiguy, I think Megs has shown you're talking out of your arse.
But the USA IS A DEMOCRACY. People vote for the leaders. Demos=people. Democracy=rule by the people.
Sort it out.
No, the US is now, and was founded as a Republic. To be very specific, a Constitutional Federal Republic. The Constitution is the law of the land and basis for all of the laws in the country, not the majority. Encyclopedia Britannica AND Wikipedia for starters both call the US as such.
http://www.britannica.com/nations/United-Stateshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAnd even meggy's merriamwebster says the US is as such.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary
Actually, if you are going to split hairs we are a
reprsentative democracy, or republic. We vote for leaders who, in turn vote for the real choices. In fact, when we vote "for" a president (or most non-local officials, for that matter), we are actually voting for a member of the electoral college who will, in turn vote in a specific way. BUT, they are not actually obligated by law or other real means to vote that way. They do by custom, except in cases where the person they are to represent has withdrawn (or died), a few other cases.
AND, Meg is quite correct... "democracy" is used and quite well understood in common usage to mean almost any system where people vote and majoriy rules.