Conquer Club

And "sabotage", now players### and I don't agree on much: she probably includes my views on several subjects as the harmful attitudes toward another group of people that she is talking about -- but you are the one who revealed yourself to be an ignorant ideologue who only reads your own propaganda, not her. Her post was a well-thought-out discussion of the subject; yours was an unsupported drooling rant.

The singularity of the Holocaust:

a) Does not lie in the number of deaths, but in its character. It was not a political cleansing as in Stalinist Russia, or a tragically high death toll during the course of a war. It was a racially motivated state policy with the declared goal of the complete annihilation of an entire people.

b) It was industrialised mass murder. Not a wild slaughter, where people enraged with hate went on a killing spree. But a systematic mass murder, planned by a government, organised & overseen by a state bureaucracy, executed with cold & clinical precision. The concentration camps were nothing but death factories. Mass murder Fordian style.

c) It was the first genocide committed by a modern & "civilised" people after the period of enlightenment, when humanity had actually believed, that it had left atrocities of that kind behind.

Feel free to argue these points, but at least know, why the Holocaust by most of political science today is seen as a singular & unique event in world history, and why it is seen different than other genocides and/or mass killings in history.

Also: To accuse Israel or "the Jews" of exploiting the Holocaust is at the very least cynical, if not outright anti-semitic.

Jewish history is a history of persecution throughout the centuries, with the holocaust as the tragic culmination point. This of course has a huge impact on Jewish identity & self-conception. Anti-semitism has been a central aspect of Jewish life for centuries, so of course Jewish people are very sensitive to this issue.

The accusation, that Jewish people somehow claim a special status or role today is just another anti-semitic slur. Most Jewish organisations, that work with Holocaust memorial and/or the history of anti-semitism, make it very clear, that they see the Holocaust as a warning, where all kinds of racism can lead. They often work closely together with Romani organisations, that commemorate the Sinti & Roma victims of the 3d Reich.

If there is a special focus on anti-semitism there, then it is because it is their very own history, and their work is meant to prevent it being their future too ...

CreepersWiener wrote:

Nobunaga wrote:

Executions of Kiev Jews by German army mobile killing units (Einsatzgruppen) near Ivangorod Ukraine.

The exterminations in the Ukraine were not only of Jewish people but also a large chunk of Christians. Perhaps as many as three million Christians in the Ukraine were killed by just the Nazis, now how many did the Communists kill?

I am not familiar with this part of history and too lazy at the moment to google it. I am hoping someone already knows this stuff and is willing to elaborate my lazy arse.

Look up the holodmor, some claim it was a genocide against the Ukrainians. Short answer is a lot of them.

The holocaust wasn't only about murdering Jewish people, it was about murdering all sorts of people deemed undesirable by the nazi state. Certain types of christians, communists, roma, gays/lesbians, alcoholics ect. Anyone the nazis didin't like could find themselves in the camps. Though the Nazis primarily reserved death camps(camps whose sole purpose was industrial killing of humans) to the Jews. Arguably Soviet POWs also got this treatment though that was mostly through starvation, rather than gas chambers and the like.

Baron Von PWN wrote:

CreepersWiener wrote:

Nobunaga wrote:

Executions of Kiev Jews by German army mobile killing units (Einsatzgruppen) near Ivangorod Ukraine.

The exterminations in the Ukraine were not only of Jewish people but also a large chunk of Christians. Perhaps as many as three million Christians in the Ukraine were killed by just the Nazis, now how many did the Communists kill?

I am not familiar with this part of history and too lazy at the moment to google it. I am hoping someone already knows this stuff and is willing to elaborate my lazy arse.

Look up the holodmor, some claim it was a genocide against the Ukrainians. Short answer is a lot of them.

The holocaust wasn't only about murdering Jewish people, it was about murdering all sorts of people deemed undesirable by the nazi state. Certain types of christians, communists, roma, gays/lesbians, alcoholics ect. Anyone the nazis didin't like could find themselves in the camps. Though the Nazis primarily reserved death camps(camps whose sole purpose was industrial killing of humans) to the Jews. Arguably Soviet POWs also got this treatment though that was mostly through starvation, rather than gas chambers and the like.

Many of my ancestors lived in the Ukraine at the time (Mennonites), and surprisingly, I found out that although the Germans were extraordinarily cruel towards Jews and various other minorities which they considered to be lesser beings compared to the "master race," the Germans were very accomodating to the Mennonites. The Mennonites had been mistreated and persecuted first by the roving bands of marauders during the revolution which had been occurring in Russia (which is when my great-grandparents fled to Canada), and then also by the communist/atheist Bolsheviks who had contempt for these God-fearing pacifists. When the Germans invaded and later were forced to retreat by the Russians, many Mennonites followed them back to Germany because the ancestry of many of the Mennonites could be traced back to Germany, which is why the Germans treated them very well. So although many Christians in the area were persecuted by the Nazis, there were some exceptions like the Mennonites.

Btw, +1 to Funkterrance, D1G, and Ahunda's posts before mine. I fully agree with them.

Hitler and his generals believed that conquering the Soviet Union, at least its western half, would be a strudel walk. It was their intention to kill entire urban populations through starvation - surround a city, kill any who attempt to leave, and let them all starve. This was an actual, on-paper plan of the Third Reich.

They wished to eliminate the native population to make way for the expansion of Germanic peoples, who would then exploit the local resources and raise crops for the Reich.

_sabotage_ wrote:You smoke way too much crack.

Ah, the first sign of a losing argument; the old ad hominem.

You have no concept of history and can only reiterate mainstream jargon.

Normally, player and I disagree on many things, while she is not the best when it comes to history, you are not yourself. In other words; pot meet kettle.

Read a book or two that wasn't part of your suggested summer holiday reading list or recommended by Oprah.

What, you didn't like "The Help"? Not cool, yo.

The scariest thing that you could tell the citizens of any nation is that the US is coming to "save" them. You still believe that we were welcomed as freedom fighters in Iraq don't you?

Which has to do with this, how? Nothing? I thought so. Moving on.

[qoute]You believe that those darned Palestinian terrorists have no right to be in Israel and that certain Jewish leaders didn't exploit the holocaust to the greatest possible extent and don't continue to do so today, because you were told that to think or say so is racist.[/quote]If I remember right, player has actually been against the Iraeli ecroachment of Palestinian territories. But, once again, doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand.

And, no. The Israelis are not exploiting the Holocaust. Do they have a right to be nervous about the leadership in Iran? I'd say so.

Any group would take advantage of any situation, but not every group is equally able to do so.

Agreed. Like the Jews in WWII Europe being systematically murdered by the Nazi governments simply for being Jews (Hitler made them the scape goat of the German depression following WWI, FYI).

Maybe you should take a support for Israel support letter in to work and make sure everyone signs it just so you can make sure they are free, anti-racist, linetoers.

Neo-Nazi, right?

If I didn't know any better, I'd say one of the guys was Norse. Question is, how many still remember that guy on here?

So am I correct to assume, GeneralRisk, that this cartoon sums up your opinion on the subject?:



Or is your stance a more extreme one? I'm still kind of hazy.

premio53 wrote:The Jews are one of the foundation stones of proof that the Bible is inspired by God. They are a chosen race that that can never be destroyed. It is through them that the Jewish Messiah came into the world 2,000 year ago and in the near future (during the battle of Armageddon) their Messiah whom they rejected the first time will return to save them from extinction.

Jeremiah 31:35-37

35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

The history of "The Wandering Jew" is one of persecution throughout the church age in country after country. The fact that they have been preserved as a separate race while being scattered around the world and having no country to call their own for 2500 years is beyond human comprehension.

I grew up in the South during the civil rights movement and saw first hand the hatred of the Jewish people. The Ku Klux Klan hated them more than they did the Black race and charged them with trying to destroy the White race through interracial marriages while keeping themselves separate, similar to what Hitler did.

Although out numbered a 100 to 1 there is no power on earth that will destroy modern day Israel and woe be to anyone who tries.

have a lot of other races been destroyed?

AndyDufresne wrote:

premio53 wrote:Actually, I think one power might be able to. I think they could probably destroy themselves.

You may be right. The lack of empathy --for all residents of the middle east-- exhibited by the Israeli government though out their existence is appalling. One might expect a nation that endured and survived the abuse of Hitler's Nazi Germany would not subject others to similar treatment. Their fear of violence is understandable --as is their right to defend themselves-- yet they have never had leadership with the vision to govern in a way that might resolve or diffuse the situation.

The eighteen million Russians killed in WWII --12,000,000 civilians-- is nothing to sneeze at.

It not matter how many died !!! we didn't learn anything from it,

ahunda wrote:The singularity of the Holocaust:

a) Does not lie in the number of deaths, but in its character. It was not a political cleansing as in Stalinist Russia, or a tragically high death toll during the course of a war. It was a racially motivated state policy with the declared goal of the complete annihilation of an entire people.

b) It was industrialised mass murder. Not a wild slaughter, where people enraged with hate went on a killing spree. But a systematic mass murder, planned by a government, organised & overseen by a state bureaucracy, executed with cold & clinical precision. The concentration camps were nothing but death factories. Mass murder Fordian style.

c) It was the first genocide committed by a modern & "civilised" people after the period of enlightenment, when humanity had actually believed, that it had left atrocities of that kind behind.

Feel free to argue these points, but at least know, why the Holocaust by most of political science today is seen as a singular & unique event in world history, and why it is seen different than other genocides and/or mass killings in history.

Absolutely agree.

ahunda wrote:Also: To accuse Israel or "the Jews" of exploiting the Holocaust is at the very least cynical, if not outright anti-semitic.

This is an entirely different question and combining it with understanding of the holocaust is, well, to ignore that current Israeli actions have consequences that need to be judged on their own. Past harms done to them directly or to their ancestors is not justification for them to do harm to others today. Claiming it IS reason is more than just "using the holocaust" It is, in fact, to detroy the very validity of the arguments above.

To draw a similar analogy. Many children who are abused grow up to be abusers, even psychopaths. Does that excuse their harming others? Does the fact that a child predator got that way because he was abused excuse his actions? It might, in some instances slightly mitigate how we deal with them... might mean life in jail with counseling is more appropriate than the electric chair, but it does not excuse his behavior.

Each person is responsible for his or her own actions, each society responsible for what they do. They cannot look to past harms for an excuse to turn and do harm to others... and make no mistake anyone claiming that the way Jews have dealt with Palestiniens is in any way "fair" or reasonable by ANY standards has not truly studied the facts. The basic premise is that it was just perfectly OK for any Jew to come and take the land becuase about 3000 years ago God gave it to them... that idea ignores both the Bible and modern ideas of right and wrong in the world. Very, very little of the land Israel occupies was bought in an honest way. Nothing has been done for the Palestinien people, who were conquered, sure, but in conquering Israel had an obligation to not destroy Palestinien society forevery, not to condemn them to life in bare refugee camps, but to deal with them as people with rights who just happen to have chosen the wrong side of one war.

Its pretty ironic that Germany, the country most responsible for the holocaust is now restored to better than its pre-WWII status, but Palestine, who's only "crime" was to say they had the right to continue to stay in the land they had worked and owned for centuries, even millenia, they are relegated to camps, poor food and harsh recriminations for anything other than complete idolation of Israel. I am sorry, but the fact that someone's family was murdered 70 years prior doesn't give them the right to take someone else's orchards.

ahunda wrote:Jewish history is a history of persecution throughout the centuries, with the holocaust as the tragic culmination point. This of course has a huge impact on Jewish identity & self-conception. Anti-semitism has been a central aspect of Jewish life for centuries, so of course Jewish people are very sensitive to this issue.

Yes, and some abusers become more sympathetic to others, some become haters little different than those who abused them. Sadly, many Jews in Israel have taken the latter view... and more sadly, guilt over the holocaust has created a climate where other countries have justified that for years.

Make no mistake, if Palesiniens were white primarily Christian, the attitude would have been very, very different!!!!

ahunda wrote:The accusation, that Jewish people somehow claim a special status or role today is just another anti-semitic slur. Most Jewish organisations, that work with Holocaust memorial and/or the history of anti-semitism, make it very clear, that they see the Holocaust as a warning, where all kinds of racism can lead. They often work closely together with Romani organisations, that commemorate the Sinti & Roma victims of the 3d Reich.

Irrelevant. Again, they are responsible for their current actions. Being hurt in the past is not justification for harming others today.

There is a wide difference between putting locks on your doors , getting a security system, etc because you or your neigher were once robbed and shooting anyone who comes to your front door without an appointment. The first, even a bit more is reasonable. The last is getting into insanity.

ahunda wrote:If there is a special focus on anti-semitism there, then it is because it is their very own history, and their work is meant to prevent it being their future too ...

Except, there comes a time when the past must be overcome, not allowed to be a cement shoe holding one down. And, again, past harm done to one is not justification for turning and harming others. It just is not.

When did this turn into a discussion over Israel, its policies and/or its right to exist ? I was under the impression, this thread was about the Holocaust ?

I am sorry, but I won´t participate in the discussion about Israel. I did so in the past, and it was pretty frustrating & tiring and never went anywhere.

2 things I want to note though:

a) The pictures posted by smegal are disgusting. They are trivialising the Holocaust & at the same time demonising Israel. Feel free to debate Israels policies & criticise them. But they are not "a racially motivated state policy with the declared goal of the complete annihilation of an entire people".

By equating Israels policies with the Holocaust you are demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of the very nature of the Holocaust as well as a lack of understanding of the situation in the Middle East today. More appropriate would be comparisons between Israels policies and that of any other nation occupying a territory, i.e. choosing pictures from US road-blocks & check-points in Iraq.

But that´s not the point, is it ? The point of using the Holocaust comparison is getting a rise out of people. I find that distasteful & pretty sick.

b) All these other references to the Holocaust, that are suggesting, that Israel or "the Jews" should have "learned" something from it, are just as sick.

Are you people actually aware, what you are saying there ? Wtf were "the Jews" supposed to "learn" from the Holocaust ? Were the concentration camps a school for life, supposed to make better people out of them ? I want to quote someone, who put this much better in words than I could hope to:

David Hirsh wrote:Well, one can do all sorts of strange things with analogies. The important thing about Nazism, the reason that Nazism is Nazism in the popular and political imagination, is because it set out to exterminate the Jews. And extermination is a project that’s even rather different from mass murder. So Nazism is known for extermination. Now the idea that what is happening in the Israeli-Palestine conflict is anything similar to that is just wrong. There’s no extermination, there never was a plan of extermination, and there is no mass murder and there is no genocide. So why do people keep raising that as an analogy?

It seems to me that one of the reasons people raise that as an analogy is because they think it has a particular effect on Jews when it is said that the Jews or Israelis have become similar to those who persecuted them. And of course it does have a particular effect on Jews. It has an effect of upsetting Jews. I think that that’s really the point of it, the point of it isn’t to come out with a serious [analysis]. There are all sorts of serious historical analogies for the rise of Jewish and Palestinian nationalism in the Middle East. One can look at Europe in the 19th century, one can look at the breakdown of the 0ttoman Empire, one can look at the Balkans, one can look at many, many things. It’s not similar to Nazism. Why do people say it’s similar to Nazism? They say it’s similar to Nazism in order to wind up the Jews, so actually the charge that the Israelis are the new Nazis is a kind of Jew-baiting. It’s literally that. It is a charge whose function is to upset and to annoy and to wind up.

I also find that it’s one of those things people think of, and they actually think they’re very clever when they think of it. They say ‘the Jews have become the Nazis.’ There’s a kind of kernel behind it [that] one can understand, the idea that if one has been subject to persecution then one should be able to recognize it and one should be less willing to become a part of something like that it in the future. But it seems to me a fundamentally flawed kind of logic, partly because one only has to ask the question what were the Jews supposed to learn at Auschwitz?

The question itself is fundamentally flawed. Auschwitz wasn’t any kind of positive learning experience, and the overwhelmingly majority of the Jews who had anything to do with the Holocaust learned nothing from it because they were killed by it. It wasn’t a learning experience and it wasn’t an experience which made people better, or more left-wing, or more anti-racist. There was no silver lining to the Holocaust.

What did people learn? People learned next time, don’t rely on western civilization to prevent antisemitism and genocide, next time have bigger friends, next time have a state with which you can defend yourself and next time have more tanks. Now that’s not my lesson it’s not my politics

The idea that the Jews should have learned something from the Holocaust is a kind of category error in thinking about the Jews as one people, as a unity. Because in truth different Jews learned different things from the Holocaust, and different Jews have different kinds of politics and different kinds of worldviews and different kinds of attitudes to what goes on. And the idea that the Jews collectively should think one thing or learn one thing is problematic. It’s an idea which comes up again and again, and I think it doesn’t make much sense.

I’m afraid to articulate the thought, what should the Blacks have learned from slavery? You just have to articulate the thought to realize what a vile kind of way of thinking it is, yet people say this about the Jews routinely – and some serious people. [...]

Source: http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2012/ ... cy-theory/

There are lessons to be learned from the Holocaust, but those are for all of humanity. And those lessons do not include to use the Holocaust as a comparison, whenever you want to "criticise" or discredit a policy you disagree with.

ahunda wrote:When did this turn into a discussion over Israel, its policies and/or its right to exist ? I was under the impression, this thread was about the Holocaust ?

I am sorry, but I won´t participate in the discussion about Israel. I did so in the past, and it was pretty frustrating & tiring and never went anywhere.

You brought it up, in all your explanations of how Jews are perpetual victims and declaring that they don't have the right to use the holocaust as justification for actions is being anti-semetic.

Ignoring the discussion doesn't make the issue change or go away.

ahunda wrote:2 things I want to note though:

a) The pictures posted by smegal are disgusting. They are trivialising the Holocaust & at the same time demonising Israel. Feel free to debate Israels policies & criticise them. But they are not "a racially motivated state policy with the declared goal of the complete annihilation of an entire people".

I see, and after just declaring this is "not a debate about Israel", you again bring it up.

ahunda wrote:By equating Israels policies with the Holocaust you are demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of the very nature of the Holocaust as well as a lack of understanding of the situation in the Middle East today.

Oh please, Israel as a nation would plain not exist if it were not for guilt Europeans and Americans felt over the holocaust, along with persistant anti-semitism. Why worry about a few million "brown people" who mostly worship this strange religion of "Islam". Why not just let all the Jews go there.... keeps them from OUR backdoor and appeases our conscience since very Jew, after all pretty much wants to go to Israel.

ahunda wrote:More appropriate would be comparisons between Israels policies and that of any other nation occupying a territory, i.e. choosing pictures from US road-blocks & check-points in Iraq.

Well, Iraq is a far more modern and specific example. Still, all of that and the treatment of Native Americans, treatment of Japanese Americans, even Germans here are all brought up continually in reference to Israel. US actions are definitely not always peachy, but none of that excuses Israel's giving Palestiniens no choice BUT to fight to keepthe land they have lived upon for millenia or to leave.

ahunda wrote:But that´s not the point, is it ? The point of using the Holocaust comparison is getting a rise out of people. I find that distasteful & pretty sick.

Not when it comes to Israel, no. Israel would quite literally not exist without the holocaust. Pretending otherwise is to deny history.

The zionist movement and some Jewish presence in Israel did predate the holocaust, but the holocaust spurred mass migration and, more importantly garnered the sympathy of the US and European nations.

ahunda wrote:b) All these other references to the Holocaust, that are suggesting, that Israel or "the Jews" should have "learned" something from it, are just as sick.

Well then you need to study history a bit more.

Having been harmed does NOT give someone the right to turn and harm someone else. As they teach in kindergarten.. "two wrongs don't make a right." That you claim even DEBATING the issue is somehow "sick" shows precisely why the discussion MUST continue... and why the real lesson of the holocaust, that any group can be targeted and blamed, etc.... will be missed and the hatred perpetuated.

I hope you are proud of perpetuating hatred and not peace. I prefer peace. Peace and tolerance are not always easy, but it is better.

OH, yeah... my family is Danish. Study a bit about them before claiming I come from a family of racist pigs again.

ahunda wrote:Are you people actually aware, what you are saying there ? Wtf were "the Jews" supposed to "learn" from the Holocaust ?

That mass hatred and blame of another group of people has no place in any society.

ahunda wrote: There are lessons to be learned from the Holocaust, but those are for all of humanity. And those lessons do not include to use the Holocaust as a comparison, whenever you want to "criticise" or discredit a policy you disagree with.

Seems like I have learned a good many more lessons of tolerance than you. That you cannot even discuss the great harm that Israel IS perpetuating today without claiming it is somehow equivalent to being a nazis shows how little you really understand of hatred and how it works.

The REAL lesson is he who does not learn from the past will repeat it. Israel is intent on repeating history.

You know, its funny, for all you talked about various killings around the world, how is that you are unaware of the numerous Palestinien deaths.. not to mention the shear deprivation and absolutely horrible conditios they must endure, have endured for decades. All because their grandfathers refused to just turn over land when the Jews came knocking and saying "God gave us this land.. now leave".

oVo wrote:

AndyDufresne wrote:

premio53 wrote:Actually, I think one power might be able to. I think they could probably destroy themselves.

You may be right. The lack of empathy --for all residents of the middle east-- exhibited by the Israeli government though out their existence is appalling. One might expect a nation that endured and survived the abuse of Hitler's Nazi Germany would not subject others to similar treatment. Their fear of violence is understandable --as is their right to defend themselves-- yet they have never had leadership with the vision to govern in a way that might resolve or diffuse the situation.

The eighteen million Russians killed in WWII --12,000,000 civilians-- is nothing to sneeze at.

I did not make that quote. Their destiny has been set in scripture and they cannot destroy themselves.

AndyDufresne wrote:

premio53 wrote:Although out numbered a 100 to 1 there is no power on earth that will destroy modern day Israel and woe be to anyone who tries.

Actually, I think one power might be able to. I think they could probably destroy themselves.


--Andy

If he says it loud enough he might even start believing in it himself.

Gillipig wrote:

AndyDufresne wrote:

premio53 wrote:Although out numbered a 100 to 1 there is no power on earth that will destroy modern day Israel and woe be to anyone who tries.

Actually, I think one power might be able to. I think they could probably destroy themselves.


--Andy

If he says it loud enough he might even start believing in it himself.

Whom? Andy or premio?

Is CC really the kind of place that wants to publish this material?

Symmetry wrote:Is CC really the kind of place that wants to publish this material?

Most certainly not the first time something like this has been posted, and doubtful it would be the last.

muy_thaiguy wrote:

Symmetry wrote:Is CC really the kind of place that wants to publish this material?

Most certainly not the first time something like this has been posted, and doubtful it would be the last.

I'm no fan of the OP or his Nazi shtick, but Holocaust denial ain't what I see this community, this forum, or this website as being for.

Symmetry wrote:

muy_thaiguy wrote:

Symmetry wrote:Is CC really the kind of place that wants to publish this material?

Most certainly not the first time something like this has been posted, and doubtful it would be the last.

I'm no fan of the OP or his Nazi shtick, but Holocaust denial ain't what I see this community, this forum, or this website as being for.

I think it's more mitigation than denial, he's not saying no Jews were killed just that the total number is less than people think. Maybe it's because I'm so crazy liberal but I have nothing against a discussion like that. Not that I think he's right but he's welcome to try to convince me. I don't want to see this locked just based on the topic.

Gillipig wrote:

Symmetry wrote:

muy_thaiguy wrote:

Symmetry wrote:Is CC really the kind of place that wants to publish this material?

Most certainly not the first time something like this has been posted, and doubtful it would be the last.

I'm no fan of the OP or his Nazi shtick, but Holocaust denial ain't what I see this community, this forum, or this website as being for.

I think it's more mitigation than denial, he's not saying no Jews were killed just that the total number is less than people think. Maybe it's because I'm so crazy liberal but I have nothing against a discussion like that. Not that I think he's right but he's welcome to try to convince me. I don't want to see this locked just based on the topic.

Perhaps it's my previous dealings with the OP and his behavior before, suffice it to say that this isn't his first flirt with Nazism.

The OP hasn't said anything out of line so yeah it would be a little unjust to intervene with this thread in any way. Just sounds political so far.

Symmetry wrote:

Gillipig wrote:

Symmetry wrote:

muy_thaiguy wrote:

Symmetry wrote:Is CC really the kind of place that wants to publish this material?

Most certainly not the first time something like this has been posted, and doubtful it would be the last.

I'm no fan of the OP or his Nazi shtick, but Holocaust denial ain't what I see this community, this forum, or this website as being for.

I think it's more mitigation than denial, he's not saying no Jews were killed just that the total number is less than people think. Maybe it's because I'm so crazy liberal but I have nothing against a discussion like that. Not that I think he's right but he's welcome to try to convince me. I don't want to see this locked just based on the topic.

Perhaps it's my previous dealings with the OP and his behavior before, suffice it to say that this isn't his first flirt with Nazism.

That can sometimes be the case. Someone says something that is not in itself racist but then it turns out he have other opinions that are. Racism seems to be in our genes so I'm not surprised by it's frequency in the human population.

Funkyterrance wrote:The OP hasn't said anything out of line so yeah it would be a little unjust to intervene with this thread in any way. Just sounds political so far.

I don't know ifs you're being serious, but anyway here' one example of the bigotry. It sort of adds up.

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=239&t=171190&p=3739791&hilit=GeneralRisk#p3739791

Wow, just wow. This is the exact reason, why I didn´t want to get involved in a debate over Israel. People are so pre-occupied in their mind-sets, that they just read, what they want to read, and make connections in their own mind, that were never intended by the other side. It also seems impossible to discuss the issue, without people starting to foam at the mouth.

PLAYER57832 wrote:OH, yeah... my family is Danish. Study a bit about them before claiming I come from a family of racist pigs again.

This is just absolutely flabbergasting. Where the f*ck did this come from ? Did I insult you in any way ? As far as I can see, I didn´t even refer to you personally ?

I don´t want to apologise for things I didn´t say or do. Whatever it is, that you think I said, my intention was no insult. That´s not my usual way of debate.

As for the rest of your post: You completely misinterpret me and put words in my mouth, that I never said. As far as I am concerned, the only thing I said about Israel in my former posts was, that comparing its policies with the Holocaust is inappropriate and in my personal opinion insensitive & bad style.

I don´t feel like wasting my time responding to every single point, where you are utterly misconstruing, what I actually said. Here is some truth for you: I have no problem whatsoever with criticism of Israels policies. I have been involved with human rights work, and I will never defend human rights violations of any kind, no matter by who against who.

What I do have a problem with is the form, that criticism tends to take in the specific case of Israel, for example equating human rights violations by their occupation policies with the Holocaust.

Criticism of Israel in general often plays with images, that tie in to the long history of anti-semitism. For example the infamous "Jewish lobby", that pops up in all these debates sooner or later, and that supposedly controls the media, Hollywood, US foreign policies or whatever have you, is awkwardly reminiscent of the old anti-semitic tale of the Jewish conspiracy to control the world.

Now what usually happens is, someone like me, who has studied the issue of anti-semitism for a while & has become somewhat more sensitive to its history & different forms, will point out, that someone else just crossed the line in his criticism of Israel and started to bring anti-semitic images & overtones into the debate. The "someone else" will then interpret this as an attempt by me to silence his criticism with an accusation of anti-semitism. And that´s usually the end of the debate.

I even believe, that many people use those anti-semitic images unintentionally, simply not being aware of their connotations. And since (almost) nobody likes to be called a racist, they will usually react harsh & hostile, when someone points out to them, that their references or choice of words has problematic overtones. Communication issues.

Jewish people are sensitive to anti-semitism. Who can blame them ? They do note anti-semitic references and point them out. Unfortunately the result is seldom, that people question themselves or study the issues to maybe reach an understanding, why their remarks could be understood as anti-semitic.

When reading your post, I for one noted, how you tend to mix up the terms "Jews", "the Jews" and "Israel". And I find that problematic. Looking at your own country & society: Do "the Americans" exist, and are they the same as "the US" or even the same as US government policies ? Are you the same as Phatscotty, and would you feel comfortable to be put in one drawer with him, labeled as "You Americans" ?

Doing so is creating an entity in the mind, that does not exist in the real world, because in reality we are talking about individual people, all with their own personal history, their individual feelings, ideas, opinions, etc. It is actually, where racism has its small beginning: Putting all these different & individual people into one drawer. The label is the next step, ascribing them certain common character traits, interests, etc.

Now before you explode again, imagining I just called you a racist, or something like that: We all tend to do this, to some extent. We live in a world, that is divided into different countries, religions, cultures. Our perception tends to group people together along those markers, and some people even identify themselves over this, over their belonging to some group or other.

Do not assume, you know me, who I am, or what I think. I am a humanist at heart. Studying & working with such issues has been a good part of my life for many years. Issues of racism & anti-semitism being one focus of personal interest for me. I am not calling you or anyone an anti-semite to simply shut you up. If I speak on these issues, my interest is creating greater awareness & self-reflection.

When I referred to Jewish history in my last post (and the role of anti-semitism in it), my intention was not at all to explain or excuse policies of the Israeli state today. That´s a connection you made in your head. I was merely trying to point out, why a people with such a history are very sensitive to anti-semitism. Because that´s just one other point, that many people seem incapable to grasp: Why white Americans (just to take an example) can brush off negative stereotyping (being put in a drawer) easier than Blacks - or Jewish people.

Simply because of the role, that negative stereotyping had in their history & still has in their personal everyday life today. White Americans have been at the top of the human food chain for centuries basically. Others calling them words, so what ? Pure envy. It´s easy to take an insult, when you are in the privileged position.

Blacks however are reminded of centuries of degradation & exploitation (and their everyday experiences with racism & systematically being disadvantaged), when being called the N-word. Jewish people, when being confronted with anti-semitic stereotyping, are reminded of their long history of persecution, and of course the Holocaust is central in that regard.

Not sure, if I am getting my point across, or if I completely lost myself here. But now, where I am already at it ...

PLAYER57832 wrote:

ahunda wrote:When did this turn into a discussion over Israel, its policies and/or its right to exist ? I was under the impression, this thread was about the Holocaust ?

I am sorry, but I won´t participate in the discussion about Israel. I did so in the past, and it was pretty frustrating & tiring and never went anywhere.

You brought it up, in all your explanations of how Jews are perpetual victims and declaring that they don't have the right to use the holocaust as justification for actions is being anti-semetic.

No. As stated above, my references to Jewish history were meant to shine a light on why Jewish people react sensitive to anti-semitism. The connection to Israel was made by you.

And no again. I did not say, that "declaring that they don't have the right to use the holocaust as justification for actions is being anti-semetic". You are putting words in my mouth. I said:

ahunda wrote:To accuse Israel or "the Jews" of exploiting the Holocaust is at the very least cynical, if not outright anti-semitic.

"Exploiting" certainly carries a more negative connotation than "using". But not dwelling on semantics, I find this accusation problematic in general, as it somehow suggests, that Jewish people are/were benefiting from the Holocaust. I hope, I don´t have to spell it out, why I find this "cynical".

This kind of accusation (Jewish people or the state of Israel "exploiting" the Holocaust for their own interests) often goes hand in hand with even more sinister accusations: "The Jews" manipulating the death toll of the Holocaust to hold the world hostage, "the Jews" creating a "Holocaust industry", etc. pp. That was the context I was thinking of, obviously something entirely different than what you assumed.

The question, that you seem to be putting forth is: Can the Holocaust be used as a legitimate argument to justify Israels policies ? My answer back would be: Is it being used for that ? And how precisely ?

I would say, the Holocaust is being used as a justification for the necessity of a Jewish state (Israel). This is so in many arguments by Jewish people, but I believe also in the official state ideology of Israel. From the history of anti-semitism and the experience of the Holocaust the conclusion is drawn, that Jewish people need their own state to protect themselves.

I wouldn´t know, where the Holocaust is coming into this beyond that. I am not aware, that Jewish people or the state of Israel would argue, they for example had to invade Libanon, because of the Holocaust. They would say, they had to invade Libanon, because Hezbollah was shooting rockets into Israel from there, and just like any other state in the world Israel has a right to defend itself and protect its citizens.

If the Holocaust is legitimation for the existence of the state of Israel, this is indeed a very complex question. But I did not raise it. As I said, I didn´t really want to get involved in this particular discussion.

I would find it "cynical" yet again to interpret the foundation of the state of Israel as "using/exploiting the Holocaust". Because this would suggest, that the Jewish people of the time were welcoming the Holocaust as a pretense. In reality however there were thousands of people desperately trying to escape persecution & death, often with no alternatives to go. It was a tragedy for the Jewish people of Europe, and their influx into Palestine resulted in a tragedy for Palestinian people there.

Nationalism is nasty business and has caused great harm & grief in history. The conflict between Israel & Palestine is a conflict between two nationalist movements, fighting over territory. No good will ever come from a thing like that, and no one side will walk away from this with a clean sheet.

I abhor war, I abhor violence, I abhor nationalism. I do sympathise with the plight of the Jewish people in their history and have reached an understanding for the Zionist idea of an own state. I do sympathise with the plight of the Palestinian people too, who are today living under inhumane conditions (though I do not put 100% of the blame for these living conditions on Israel).

My wish would be for the violence to stop and every single human being living free and in peace with each other. The question then being, how to get there ? And I for one do not believe in taking sides and playing the blaming game. Hamas & Hezbollah are among those I abhor, as are extremists & right-wingers on the other side. How to break out of the circle of violence ?

We are living today, here and now. When I was born, the state of Israel had already existed for about 30 years. Today, after almost 70 years of existence, still questioning Israels right to exist or the circumstances under which it came into being, is not calling for peace, it´s calling for more violence and war. No one can seriously expect, that Israel will participate in a discussion, if it has a right to exist. No other state in the world would. So this simply is not a starting point for a dialogue, that can lead to a peaceful solution in the future.

Hmm. Taking a breath, looking at the rest of your post, great parts of it simply making no sense to me, as you are really misconstruing my words at every turn, putting them in entirely different contexts than intended, and thus I´d need to reply to things, that I never said or even thought. And enter discussions, that I really don´t want.

A lot of your post seems to aim at the founding history of Israel, and how that was an injustice to the Palestinian people. And I hadn´t spoken of that with a single word in my earlier posts. So whatever you assumed, my perspective on this issue to be, it all came out of your own head. Nowhere did I ever say, the Holocaust played no role in Israel coming into existence. I hadn´t even touched that subject.

All that I said was, you can´t equate Israels policies with the Holocaust. And actually you yourself agreed with the points of my first post, why the Holocaust is seen as a singular & unique event in history. So I really don´t know, how you managed to jump from this to all the rest of your post. I really only spoke of Holocaust "comparisons", which I find inappropriate.

"The Jews" did not come to the Middle East with a racist agenda of exterminating the Palestinian people. They did not tattoo numbers on the Palestinians arms & systematically herded them into camps to gas them. They came as refugees, on the flight from persecution & death, and they went on to claim their own state, and this resulted in a bloody tragic conflict with deaths on both sides, that has now lasted for centuries. So no: The Holocaust is not a valid comparison to what "the Jews" or Israel are doing.

Just to make this clear: I dislike Holocaust comparisons with other events too. When the media started to call Saddam Hussein "the new Hitler" I was ready to throw up. This was the point of my earlier argument: If you start equating every atrocity in this world with the Holocaust, if you equate every dictator world-wide with Hitler, then you do obviously not understand, what made the Holocaust unique. And if you use the comparison in the specific case of Israel (and this has become somewhat of a sport, it appears), directing it at the ancestors of the victims of the actual real Holocaust, it gets an additional perfidious quality.

Then this:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

ahunda wrote:b) All these other references to the Holocaust, that are suggesting, that Israel or "the Jews" should have "learned" something from it, are just as sick.

Well then you need to study history a bit more.

Having been harmed does NOT give someone the right to turn and harm someone else. As they teach in kindergarten.. "two wrongs don't make a right." That you claim even DEBATING the issue is somehow "sick" shows precisely why the discussion MUST continue... and why the real lesson of the holocaust, that any group can be targeted and blamed, etc.... will be missed and the hatred perpetuated.

I hope you are proud of perpetuating hatred and not peace. I prefer peace. Peace and tolerance are not always easy, but it is better.

I really & honestly have no idea, how you made these connections. Did I say somewhere, that somebody ("the Jews", Israel, I don´t know) had the right to harm someone else ?

In the given context, you are probably meaning the foundation of Israel as an unjustified harm to the Palestinian people again. Yet again: I am not aware to have spoken of that in my earlier posts.

I didn´t say, it was "sick" to debate these issues either. I was saying, that the thought, that Jewish people should have "learned" something from the Holocaust is sick. What do you learn from being killed ? Maybe you should read the lengthy quote in my last post. David Hirsh expressed this very well, in my opinion.

I did not say, the state of Israel is justified to do whatever it wants, or that its human rights violation are somehow justified by the history of the Holocaust. Putting words in my mouth again.

Yet again, in this very quote of yours, I find the Holocaust reference somewhat inappropriate: Is Israels policy fueled by racial hatred ? Or are we talking about a country in a war-like state for centuries, that on several occasions chose options & hardline policies, that we don´t agree with or even abhor ? Do we really need to compare those policies to the Holocaust and Israel to Nazi Germany, or can we criticise them for their impact on human rights & living conditions of the Palestinians without doing so ?

PLAYER57832 wrote:

ahunda wrote:Are you people actually aware, what you are saying there ? Wtf were "the Jews" supposed to "learn" from the Holocaust ?

That mass hatred and blame of another group of people has no place in any society.

Sure. That´s a lesson for the entire world.

Yet again: Is "mass hatred and blame for another group" the driving agenda of Israels policies ? Was it the motivation for the founding of the state of Israel ?

I have no doubt, that racism exists in Israeli society, just as it exists in every other place of this world. And I condemn it there as I do anywhere else. But singling Israel out for it ? Pointing the finger at them and saying: "Haven´t we killed enough of you to cure you of this ?" What kind of twisted thinking is this ?

Why should "the Jews" (the great majority of those living today being born long after the Holocaust) be different or better than anyone else in that regard ?

PLAYER57832 wrote:

ahunda wrote: There are lessons to be learned from the Holocaust, but those are for all of humanity. And those lessons do not include to use the Holocaust as a comparison, whenever you want to "criticise" or discredit a policy you disagree with.

Seems like I have learned a good many more lessons of tolerance than you. That you cannot even discuss the great harm that Israel IS perpetuating today without claiming it is somehow equivalent to being a nazis shows how little you really understand of hatred and how it works.

The REAL lesson is he who does not learn from the past will repeat it. Israel is intent on repeating history.

You know, its funny, for all you talked about various killings around the world, how is that you are unaware of the numerous Palestinien deaths.. not to mention the shear deprivation and absolutely horrible conditios they must endure, have endured for decades. All because their grandfathers refused to just turn over land when the Jews came knocking and saying "God gave us this land.. now leave".

And well ... more of the same stuff ...

That I did not mention the Palestinians earlier does not mean, that I am unaware of their hardships. It´s more, that I really didn´t want to get involved in that debate. This thread here was about the Holocaust. So why am I supposed to discuss the living conditions of the Palestinians here ? You brought this up, not me.

I have discussed the Israeli - Palestinian conflict in depth, on several occasions. That I did not wish to enter such a discussion here again, has its reasons. One is simple time issues (make a guess, how long it took me to write this novel here), another - as already mentioned - my experience with those debates usually going nowhere.

I don´t even understand, what you are saying here:

PLAYER57832 wrote:That you cannot even discuss the great harm that Israel IS perpetuating today without claiming it is somehow equivalent to being a nazis shows how little you really understand of hatred and how it works.

Did I claim something to be "equivalent to being a nazis" ? Wasn´t I the one saying, that I find all those Nazi & Holocaust comparisons inappropriate ?

And that thing about Israel "repeating the past": Israel might have made a lot of mistakes and might be guilty of many things, but the extermination of the Palestinian people has never been the agenda. I am really wondering, how you manage this in your own head, to argue on one hand, that the Holocaust was a singular & unique event in history (earlier in this thread), and on the other hand use it in every second paragraph for reference & comparison, when discussing Israels policies ...

Well. This has become long enough. I sincerely tried to understand, where you were coming from, and where there might have been simple misunderstandings, that I could clarify.

And I hope, I managed to keep this civil & friendly. Being called intolerant and hate & war-mongering did not sit well with me, after years in anti-racist groups, doing humanitarian work on volunteer basis & participating in countless peace marches and anti-racist rallies ...