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Re: Das Schloß [Quenched]

Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 5:09 pm
by Ruben Cassar
wicked wrote:
oaktown wrote:Clearly I wasn't reading my own rules for gameplay when I stamped this: there should be multiple possible roads to victory, and the map should be playable in a variety of game settings. :oops:


Perhaps one shouldn't stamp his own maps? It's very easy to miss things when you've been staring at the files/map the whole time. A fresh set of eyes is always helpful. And don't get offended, this is meant to be constructive. In the real world, QC is never done by the designer.


But oaktown was not the designer of this map.

Re: Das Schloß [Quenched]

Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 5:11 pm
by wicked
ah then I misread what he posted. ;)

Re: Das Schloß [Quenched]

Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 5:13 pm
by Ruben Cassar
wicked wrote:ah then I misread what he posted. ;)


I think so, because oaktown doesn't stamp the maps he's creating. In fact another mod steps in to stamp the gameplay.

Re: Das Schloß [Quenched]

Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 5:19 pm
by wicked
Good to hear. With all the bugs and unbalance in the new maps, just looking for why. I'll go back to lurking. ;)

Re: Das Schloß [Quenched]

Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 5:21 pm
by cairnswk
BENJIKAT IS DEAD wrote:...and just in case I came across all critical above and little else, I really hope that a solution can be found because it is so much FUN :D


not at all benjikat...it is sometimes only through some games that we can see that adjustments need to be made, and clearly there is some on this map.

Re: Das Schloß [Quenched]

Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 5:56 pm
by bryguy
Incandenza wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
yeti_c wrote:
BENJIKAT IS DEAD wrote:just use whatever leverage you may have to fight for a playtest area/period.


Agreed!!

C.

Agreed here also!


Been beating that drum for some time, so, yeah, agreed!


i was working on figuring out how to make one, but ive been busy so it kinda got locked away in the back of my head

Re: Das Schloß [Quenched]

Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 6:44 pm
by cairnswk
Well, clearly i have upset a few people...that's not surprising for me.
However, the good thing is that we may get a good outcome from this little fiasco.
A review of the game has been placed in the hands of CAs and Andy for consideration for the map to come down and be re-balanced. That's not my preference, but it is an option.

So to start with below is the new xml
1. with fix for the starting position challenge provided by yeti_c
2. with schloss terits back in play but this time as they were meant to be in the starting position list at the beginning of the coding.

However, i have just run this through xml checker tool, and error message subsequent of that at the bottom of this code is about the minreinforment - can someone explain what this means please.

Code: Select all

Warning: No other countries border on Philby (it cannot be conquered)
Warning: Territory Philby has border P1, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory P1 has border P2, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory P2 has border CP1, but not vice versa
Warning: No other countries border on Jones (it cannot be conquered)
Warning: Territory Jones has border J1, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory J1 has border J2, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory J2 has border CP1, but not vice versa
Warning: No other countries border on Smith (it cannot be conquered)
Warning: Territory Smith has border S1, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory S1 has border S2, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory S2 has border CP2, but not vice versa
Warning: No other countries border on Neal (it cannot be conquered)
Warning: Territory Neal has border N1, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory N1 has border N2, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory N2 has border CP2, but not vice versa
Warning: No other countries border on Mills (it cannot be conquered)
Warning: Territory Mills has border M1, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory M1 has border M2, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory M2 has border CP3, but not vice versa
Warning: No other countries border on Timms (it cannot be conquered)
Warning: Territory Timms has border T1, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory T1 has border T2, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory T2 has border CP3, but not vice versa
Warning: No other countries border on Yves (it cannot be conquered)
Warning: Territory Yves has border Y1, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory Y1 has border Y2, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory Y2 has border CP4, but not vice versa
Warning: No other countries border on Casey (it cannot be conquered)
Warning: Territory Casey has border C1, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory C1 has border C2, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory C2 has border CP4, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory Kontrol 3 has border DC 1, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory UC 1 has border UC 2, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory UC 2 has border UC 3, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory UC 3 has border UC 4, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory UC 4 has border UC 5, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory UC 5 has border Kontrol 2, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory DC 1 has border DC 2, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory DC 2 has border DC 3, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory DC 3 has border DC 4, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory DC 4 has border DC 5, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory DC 5 has border Kontrol 4, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory R4 has border Wache In, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory R8 has border Militärlager, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory Bus Schuppen has border R1, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory Kontrol 1 has border UC 1, but not vice versa
Warning: Territory Wache Aus has border R5, but not vice versa
Error: Min reinforcement has value of zero
Summary: 1 errors and 48 warnings detected in das_schloss_240508.xml (46 continents, 106 territories)


LInk to file: (this does not have any re-balancing siggested in the above posts).
http://h1.ripway.com/cairnswk/das_schloss_240508.xml

OK, guys back to topic. Please take the request for testing area into the Foundry Discussion thanks.
Let's get on with getting this map back on track if possible. ;)

Re: Das Schloß [Quenched]

Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 7:59 pm
by AndyDufresne
lackattack wrote:I also (with yeti's help) updated the XML Tutorial to clarify how leftover start positions are dealt out and how min reinforcement must be greater than zero: viewtopic.php?p=1070531#p1070531

If that makes any sense. :) He added it as a new error to the XML checker I believe recently.


--Andy

Re: Das Schloß [Quenched]

Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 8:04 pm
by cairnswk
AndyDufresne wrote:
lackattack wrote:I also (with yeti's help) updated the XML Tutorial to clarify how leftover start positions are dealt out and how min reinforcement must be greater than zero: viewtopic.php?p=1070531#p1070531

If that makes any sense. :) He added it as a new error to the XML checker I believe recently.
--Andy

Yes Andy, that makes sense. I checked that tutorial of lackattack's to see what was happening there...to no avail for my purposes however, as i didn't adjust anything to do with minreinformcements on this map. :)
i simply thought it would default minreinforcement of 3

Re: Das Schloß [Quenched]

Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 8:04 pm
by fireedud
I just joined an assassin game and realized the only way to win is by holding the objective.

Re: Das Schloß [Quenched]

Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 8:07 pm
by cairnswk
fireedud wrote:I just joined an assassin game and realized the only way to win is by holding the objective.


There was a post about tow or three weeks ago in both the Foundry Discussion and General discussion that i put up to advise players that the only way to win this map would be purely objective and that probably assassin and terminator games were useless because of the Parachute starting positions in the gameplay. :)

Re: Das Schloß [Quenched]

Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 8:36 pm
by oaktown
Gimil and I are duking it out on this map, two player style, to see what the fuss is all about... we'll share our thoughts this weekend.

Re: Das Schloß [Quenched]

Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 8:49 pm
by cairnswk
oaktown wrote:Gimil and I are duking it out on this map, two player style, to see what the fuss is all about... we'll share our thoughts this weekend.

yes i see...thanks oaktown and gimil

Re: Das Schloß [Quenched]

Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 10:41 pm
by Incandenza
oaktown wrote:Gimil and I are duking it out on this map, two player style, to see what the fuss is all about... we'll share our thoughts this weekend.


I've got a 1v1 going as well, and it's a joke. As benjikat noted, if you go second, you're are 99% fucked. And while going second will always be a disadvantage, this map appears to make it borderline impossible. Basically all I can do now is sit back and wait for my opponent to get around to getting the objective... so, yeah, some rebalancing wouldn't be the worst idea.

Re: Das Schloß [Quenched]

Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 1:18 am
by oaktown
gim's been taking better notes than I have, but here's what I see as being a bit off...

It seems to indeed be the case that whoever jumps out to grab the paratrooper bonuses first has an overwhelming advantage. This doesn't mean that whoever goes first wins, but if the first player is paying any attention to the features and bonuses on the map he's in pretty good shape, especially in 2/3 player games. You grab those guns and the land below becomes the Killing Fields.

Here are some possible fixes/suggestions that address the Killing Fields problem and other gameplay quirks/concerns. Please note that I am not saying we should implement all of them, but I think each is worthy of discussion.

1. Lower the paratrooper bonus. In a two player game the first player is looking at a bonus of 8 in the first round and 24 in just the second round of the game, which is more than enough to deny the second player of a bonus. This should be less of a problem in larger games, but even in four player games you get a +12 in your second round and can get a leg up on everybody else. Dropping the bonus to +1 for each - the paratroopers and the spaces that follow - would limit the first bonus to +4, making it harder to grab all of the following bonuses, and the +12 in the second round probably wouldn't be quite enough to eliminate all of the opponents bonuses. This is a start, but might not go as far as we'd like it to.

2. Give the P1 P2 etc. a higher starting neutral count... make players earn those easy bonuses. Once lost they'd just go back to 1, so this wouldn't affect your ability to get it back.

3. Remove the +1 for holding a gun. They are already all-powerful, why add insult to the opponent's injury? I would almost insist on this one.

4. Lower the starting neutral value of the checkpoints to give player a chance to get through there... it's bad enough that you keep getting cut down in the Killing Fields, but with a six in the checkpoints each line is like a dead end. You're better off leaving stacks on the paratroops to hold the bonuses and attacking from your internal positions.

5. Make the helipads killer neutrals. I tried slogging my way up the bridge and the cable car, and it was a drag... you automatically leave an army behind each time you move ahead. The helipads are the far superior method for getting up there, and while a starting neutral of 12 looks high it's far cheaper than taking both of the longer routes. I say make all of the helipads 12 - including the one on the castle - and have them respawn to 12. Make the helicopters a one-shot deal: throw your wad at them and hope to get across, but if you don't make it up you crash and burn in the attempt. Not to mention that the helicopter seems like an anachronism in this map to begin with, but yes, they had one in the movie. #-o

6. Restore the missing starting locations. It might reduce use of the cable car, but in the games I've played it didn't take long for one player to eliminate the other from the airport in two rounds so I had to fight my way up the road anyway.

7. Lose the additional bonuses for flughafen, das dorf, and das schlos. In a two player game you start with bonuses just for being there, and in three/four player games you only need to nab one terit to up your bonus. Starting every round with 14 armies to place is just exacerbating the first-player-wins problem; seems we need to slow down the early rounds and require players to use some strategy. And really, if somebody is holding 21 Das Dorf territories they are already starting each round with 7 armies to place just by virtue of reinforcements, and are probably in pretty good shape overall.

8. (This one will be controversial.) Create a new feature: the Anti Aircraft gun. Turn the tower into an AA battery (since the tower seems kinda useless anyway) which would be capable of knocking out the paratroopers once and for all. It would have to be a pretty costly enterprise - big starting neutral value, killer neutral, etc. - but it would give assassin and terminator games a reason for existence.

Finally, I have to admit that when I was stamping this for gameplay I didn't get the complexities of how this would play out... I think I even said that this was one of those maps we'd just have to play before we really new what would happen. My concerns were more about the clarity of some aspects of the map, and having now played it I don't really know how somebody could play this map without BoB and the map inspect features. Some of the the connections are really hard to follow, and in only two games I've already misread the map a few times. My biggest beef is that there really needs to be more space between some territories to pick up the fact that , for example, Inn actually borders Gun AB, or that Helipad A borders Bus Schuppen.

Sorry to pile more stuff on, cairns, but if we're going to put some tweaks in this map we may as well address everything.

Alright, now discuss! :D

Re: Das Schloß [Quenched]

Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 1:52 am
by yeti_c
oaktown wrote:8. (This one will be controversial.) Create a new feature: the Anti Aircraft gun. Turn the tower into an AA battery (since the tower seems kinda useless anyway) which would be capable of knocking out the paratroopers once and for all. It would have to be a pretty costly enterprise - big starting neutral value, killer neutral, etc. - but it would give assassin and terminator games a reason for existence.


I disagree with this one - as the whole point of the map is that you cannot be killed...

That being said...
Consider making the single square bonuses auto deploy... so that you increase you army count but cannot just lay them down in one place and hammer someone else.

This will also mean that the cable car will be more utilised - as to free your troops from behind you - to get to where you need them - you will have to hold contiguous territories.

C.

Re: Das Schloß [Quenched]

Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 2:38 am
by cairnswk
yeti_c wrote:
oaktown wrote:8. (This one will be controversial.) Create a new feature: the Anti Aircraft gun. Turn the tower into an AA battery (since the tower seems kinda useless anyway) which would be capable of knocking out the paratroopers once and for all. It would have to be a pretty costly enterprise - big starting neutral value, killer neutral, etc. - but it would give assassin and terminator games a reason for existence.


I disagree with this one - as the whole point of the map is that you cannot be killed...
Well, this aspect of not being able to be killed isn't in the original story...it only arrived since i/we decided to make those start points un-attacklable, since this is where the paratroops come in anyway.

That being said...
Consider making the single square bonuses auto deploy... so that you increase you army count but cannot just lay them down in one place and hammer someone else.

This will also mean that the cable car will be more utilised - as to free your troops from behind you - to get to where you need them - you will have to hold contiguous territories.

C.

This part C., i don't follow, can you explain what you mean as the single square bonuses

most of what oaktown has written makes good sense to me......except ->

I would like to remove the helipad thing altogether. I know they had one in the movie where the German high command flew into the castle, but it always will defeat the purpose of having the cable cars.
I would prefer that the story line -> gameplay, follows that of paratroopers and not of the capabilities of the german high command.

Removing the helipad from Das Dorf might free up some real estate there to space those germans out a bit for oaktown.

Also, will this still stay in Quenched area...seems there are some major graphic changes to possibly be made, so am happy for it to be put back in Foundry.

Anyway, let's see what Gimil has to say.

Re: Das Schloß [Quenched]

Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 6:53 am
by yeti_c
cairnswk wrote:
yeti_c wrote:That being said...
Consider making the single square bonuses auto deploy... so that you increase you army count but cannot just lay them down in one place and hammer someone else.

This will also mean that the cable car will be more utilised - as to free your troops from behind you - to get to where you need them - you will have to hold contiguous territories.

C.

This part C., i don't follow, can you explain what you mean as the single square bonuses



What I meant was - the paratroopers etc - currently give "bonus in hand"... if you made these auto deploy - then the troops on the front line would be slowed down - and a stranglehold on the guns would be harder to take and hold at the beginning.

C.

Re: Das Schloß [Quenched]

Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 9:07 am
by hulmey
trouble with CC and these kinds of maps is this that there are some many different game modes that can be played on them and you must cater for them all :?

Re: Das Schloß [Quenched]

Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 9:44 am
by oaktown
yeti_c wrote:Consider making the single square bonuses auto deploy... so that you increase you army count but cannot just lay them down in one place and hammer someone else.

Gimil and I discussed this in our game chat, and I am opposed. Thetrouble with auto-deployed bonuses is that they often sit and waste away unless you're playing unlimited forts. These would be auto deployed armies along a bottlenecked, one-way, dead-end, so in most games they'd be deployed and never come into play until the stack is big enough to make it worth using your fortification on it.

carinswk wrote:I would like to remove the helipad thing altogether. I know they had one in the movie where the German high command flew into the castle, but it always will defeat the purpose of having the cable cars.
I would prefer that the story line -> gameplay, follows that of paratroopers and not of the capabilities of the german high command.

Removing the helipad from Das Dorf might free up some real estate there to space those germans out a bit for oaktown.

I wouldn't miss the helipads if they were removed completely. It doesn't make sense having helicopters in a WWII scenario game anyway. This would accomplish the same goal as making them killer neutrals.

Re: Das Schloß [Quenched] - Seeking Gameplay Input!

Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 5:43 pm
by bryguy
after actually playing a game of this, i have found some stuff i dislike:

in 1v1, the bonuses are to high
there are some bombardments that were not apparent at all


and more, but i dont have time to list them

Re: Das Schloß [Quenched] - Seeking Gameplay Input!

Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 9:23 pm
by Clanlord Carl
very interesting map - plays well. Dont understand the problem.....lots of interesting tactics ........enjoyed it.....

Re: Das Schloß [Quenched]

Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 9:24 pm
by MOBAJOBG
oaktown wrote:gim's been taking better notes than I have, but here's what I see as being a bit off...

It seems to indeed be the case that whoever jumps out to grab the paratrooper bonuses first has an overwhelming advantage. This doesn't mean that whoever goes first wins, but if the first player is paying any attention to the features and bonuses on the map he's in pretty good shape, especially in 2/3 player games. You grab those guns and the land below becomes the Killing Fields.

Here are some possible fixes/suggestions that address the Killing Fields problem and other gameplay quirks/concerns. Please note that I am not saying we should implement all of them, but I think each is worthy of discussion.

1. Lower the paratrooper bonus. In a two player game the first player is looking at a bonus of 8 in the first round and 24 in just the second round of the game, which is more than enough to deny the second player of a bonus. This should be less of a problem in larger games, but even in four player games you get a +12 in your second round and can get a leg up on everybody else. Dropping the bonus to +1 for each - the paratroopers and the spaces that follow - would limit the first bonus to +4, making it harder to grab all of the following bonuses, and the +12 in the second round probably wouldn't be quite enough to eliminate all of the opponents bonuses. This is a start, but might not go as far as we'd like it to. Yes, please.

2. Give the P1 P2 etc. a higher starting neutral count... make players earn those easy bonuses. Once lost they'd just go back to 1, so this wouldn't affect your ability to get it back. Yes, please.

3. Remove the +1 for holding a gun. They are already all-powerful, why add insult to the opponent's injury? I would almost insist on this one. Yes, please and make sure those armies can't be fortified out (same effect as those artilleries from Waterloo).

4. Lower the starting neutral value of the checkpoints to give player a chance to get through there... it's bad enough that you keep getting cut down in the Killing Fields, but with a six in the checkpoints each line is like a dead end. You're better off leaving stacks on the paratroops to hold the bonuses and attacking from your internal positions. Yes, please perhaps the CheckPoints 3 or 4 neutral armies and the Batteries should start with 6 or 8 neutral armies.

5. Make the helipads killer neutrals. I tried slogging my way up the bridge and the cable car, and it was a drag... you automatically leave an army behind each time you move ahead. The helipads are the far superior method for getting up there, and while a starting neutral of 12 looks high it's far cheaper than taking both of the longer routes. I say make all of the helipads 12 - including the one on the castle - and have them respawn to 12. Make the helicopters a one-shot deal: throw your wad at them and hope to get across, but if you don't make it up you crash and burn in the attempt. Not to mention that the helicopter seems like an anachronism in this map to begin with, but yes, they had one in the movie. #-o I don't know what killer neutrals are but I would support the idea of Helipad B to start with at least 18 neutral armies. This map don't have to return to the drawing board as it has almost all the features that CC offers.

6. Restore the missing starting locations. It might reduce use of the cable car, but in the games I've played it didn't take long for one player to eliminate the other from the airport in two rounds so I had to fight my way up the road anyway. Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

7. Lose the additional bonuses for flughafen, das dorf, and das schlos. In a two player game you start with bonuses just for being there, and in three/four player games you only need to nab one terit to up your bonus. Starting every round with 14 armies to place is just exacerbating the first-player-wins problem; seems we need to slow down the early rounds and require players to use some strategy. And really, if somebody is holding 21 Das Dorf territories they are already starting each round with 7 armies to place just by virtue of reinforcements, and are probably in pretty good shape overall. Well, I've to disagree. I think it's better to award "+1 for each 4" instead otherwise there won't be any incentive to attack the neutral territories of Flughafen, Das Dorf and Das SchloB.

8. (This one will be controversial.) Create a new feature: the Anti Aircraft gun. Turn the tower into an AA battery (since the tower seems kinda useless anyway) which would be capable of knocking out the paratroopers once and for all. It would have to be a pretty costly enterprise - big starting neutral value, killer neutral, etc. - but it would give assassin and terminator games a reason for existence. Please don't kill my paratrooper(s) ...'nuff said.

Finally, I have to admit that when I was stamping this for gameplay I didn't get the complexities of how this would play out... I think I even said that this was one of those maps we'd just have to play before we really new what would happen. My concerns were more about the clarity of some aspects of the map, and having now played it I don't really know how somebody could play this map without BoB and the map inspect features. Some of the the connections are really hard to follow, and in only two games I've already misread the map a few times. My biggest beef is that there really needs to be more space between some territories to pick up the fact that , for example, Inn actually borders Gun AB, or that Helipad A borders Bus Schuppen.

Sorry to pile more stuff on, cairns, but if we're going to put some tweaks in this map we may as well address everything.

Alright, now discuss! :D


My responses are in Blue color.

Thks & Rgds.

Re: Das Schloß [Quenched] - Seeking Gameplay Input!

Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 9:41 pm
by seamusk
8. (This one will be controversial.) Create a new feature: the Anti Aircraft gun. Turn the tower into an AA battery (since the tower seems kinda useless anyway) which would be capable of knocking out the paratroopers once and for all. It would have to be a pretty costly enterprise - big starting neutral value, killer neutral, etc. - but it would give assassin and terminator games a reason for existence.


You know, my thought on the tower is that when I took the tower I didn't understand why I couldn't see through the fog! Rather than making it suddenly a centerpiece of the game, give it a few and make it a tool for airports to level the playing field by seeing the town, chutes, etc.. (but not inside buildings or castles of course). I know this would only apply to fog games but I think it would at least bring the tower into play at times. Not sure if this is feasible in current xml code though.

Re: Das Schloß [Quenched]

Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 9:43 pm
by cairnswk
MOBAJOBG wrote:6. Restore the missing starting locations. It might reduce use of the cable car, but in the games I've played it didn't take long for one player to eliminate the other from the airport in two rounds so I had to fight my way up the road anyway. Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

My responses are in Blue color.

Thks & Rgds.


Thanks MOBAJOBG...there were originally going to be 8 players ( 1 each) start in the castle but i accidentally took them off. and up to this point they have not been returned.
I intend re-instating them unless there is a huge outcry not do so.