Balance Not Included Come Back Mafia End Game: Mod Down!!!

[DirtyDishSoap]

Congrats Tim!

[Skoffin]

No as in we should get a lynch in.

I agree and I believe Ragian is the best choice, whether he killed Mitch or not. If he flips scum like Legion said, at least we have one town confirmed for real and one scum down. I don't see other options.

"whether he killed mitch or not" Literally the only reason Ragian is a suspect is because Legion states, that based on legion's night action, that Ragian is a mafia that had his night action delayed until today. LITERALLY the only reason, therefore there can't be any 'best choice' regardless of whether he killed mitch or not as that is the only justification anyone has for lynching him. I'm starting to get a bit perturbed at how often I see people validate lynching someone with "It's ok even if they are not scum because we learn shit" as that can literally be used in any and every scenario to get absolutely anyone lynched. I'm not going to accept that reasoning any more and from here on out I'll be having serious misgivings about anyone that uses it. (This part is not directly aimed at you Dakky, but in general as it is a trend I've noticed lately)

Legion is as confirmed town as he is ever going to be. He could be a godfather, maybe not. Either way we cannot say with 100% certainty that he is town, just that it is the more likely option at this stage. (Also in regards to Godfathers - I disagree that they are that uncommon. I've seen it a few times on this forum even and I'd say there would be 'reasonable' chances it could be in this game, even if not statistically likely. Either way we cannot say for certain one way or another so CBF)

Anyway I will not be voting for Ragian; along with disagreeing with the theory on him, we can also test this out anyway. Ragian just needs to jail someone and get them to confirm tomorrow.
Dakky and DDS are more scummy than Ragian at this point, though we also have a few people missing and hard to determine what their stances are so dakky/DDS were hit by default. I'll go back over to make my determination.

[Fircoal]

Hmmm that's an interesting claim there. I'm honestly not sure what to think of it. It also seems like a quick claim to me. But ehhh..

The one point I think that is good is that is if there is someone that can day kill then why didn't they do so Day 1? Maybe it's limits imposed by the roll. In a way I feel like we might be able to learn more about Ragian and this game tomarrow. Ragian can then use his ability and we can see if there is a daykill tomarrow. The relies on Legion picking someone else at night though.

As much as the lack of a day kill on D1 seems odd I still can't believe anyone would kill mitch unless they knew he was a cop. That or some bus driving. Is there merit in having a bus driver claim? IF they did switch mitch. IT would clear up this case easier but it still doesn't provide damning proof of Ragian being bad.

Hey Skoffin, do you like gemstones?

While it is unlikely that legion is a godfather I will say the way he has been playing does trigger my scumdar. It feels like his case is made so perfectly to finger someone without taking blame. If Ragian flips town it's so easy for him to point to how it doesn't nessaraly make him scum. But meanwhile it's easy for him to push and make a lead off of. Because he got investigated and is so likely town I don't think it's a good lead but it is something that comes to mind.

[Skoffin]

I'm going to say that scum do not have a kill for every single day. More likely it's a one off or it can only be used every second day. Day kills are far too powerful so they are almost always limited in usage when they are put into a game. So to the question "why didn't they use it day one" I'd say because either they couldn't or because it would be stupid to waste a one time action randomly.

Gemstones? Eh, anything shiny I'll take.

I have no comments as to legions play at the moment. Typically, I don't think people are crafty enough to pull off such a stunt - there are players who I would suspect of doing such a thing, but at this stage I don't know legion's capabilities enough to determine whether he would be the type to try such a gambit.

Anywho
For simplicity, here are claims thus far

Roles:

Ragian - Paul Edgecomb - Jailer, picked Samlen N1
Samlen - No action N1
DDS - Owl - town watcher, picked Fircoal. No visits.
Legion - weird delay action thiny, picked Ragian.

(dead) Mitch - Jack Ventura People Detective -Town Cop - N1 Legion showed as innocent

*For posterity, can everyone confirm that what I have listed for them is correct name/role/action wise. Legion, can you clarify your role name? I know you mentioned what your role does, but I don't think you provided a role name with it (unless I missed it)
*Samlen, you weren't roleclaiming and were merely responding to the action of another player, so you are not required to provide role info for this list.
*If I have missed any claims, do let me know.

Honestly at the moment I'm more suspicious of Dakky and Nag. Dakky has been playing weird, is not vocal like he normally is, was eager to vote Ragian and used the excuse that is basically doesn't matter whether ragian is actually scum or not. Nag was posting in favour of lynching Ragian and giving reasons for people to jump on that lynch, yet hasn't cast a vote himself; this gives me the impression that there is a reason he wants other people to vote ragian and for him to hold off before doing it, and usually that's a scumster trying to get townies to vote town and not looking to keen themselves by voting early.

[dakky21]

Dakky has been playing weird, is not vocal like he normally is

Remember the start of the game? I said I will try to change tactics in this one. It may look weird but you must agree I am playing differently (or weird as you would say).

[nagerous]

If mafia has a day kill why would it not have been used day one?

However Mitch by claiming cop painted a massive target on his back. If mafia had a one shot day vig they would use it instantly on Mitch. That is what we have to be wary of here and this is why it requires more lateral thinking than just OMGZ raglan is being scum.

That being said thi may be the best lead we have all day and would be folly to not trust legionnaire now he has been declared as town. However there is no rush at this stage.

Quoted for prosperity skoffin.


I didn't vote at this point because there were too many question marks in regards to the case.

Summary of events as below:


No night deaths (Fircoal gives off impression that their was some involvement here)
Mitch claims cop, says legion is town
Cop dies day 2 (first day kill of game)
Legion confirmed town says used action to convert night action to day action and used on ragian
Ragian says jailer - jailed samlen (protected and roleblocked him)
Samlen says didn't use his night action and cannot verify ragian's claim therefore - this I consider highly convenient Samlen apologies if you said this already but did you tell strike this?

DDS claims watcher and says no one visited Fircoal.

My working assumptions are that legionnaire is telling the truth. The cop is dead, legionnaires innocence has been proved, it is conceivable that ragian was targeted by legionnaire as they had a bit of back and forth day one. So is ragian scum then? The proved townie (throwing godfather theories out the window) seems to think so. When in doubt in a mafia game and differing views are being presented on whether someone is scum I tend to trust the judgement of the person I know is town as other people may be trying to manipulate me into thinking otherwise.

Now the mitigating circumstances, the timing and the target of the death..

Why would Mitch be targeted by scum on night one - he is a good example of a player scum could easily throw under the bus due to his style of play and contributions that aren't helpful.

Dying as a day kill target makes a lot more sense after he claimed cop as he would have a massive target on his back.


Now Mitch was quick to claim day two that he was the town cop. Did he let slip that he was a cop day one? Something very subtle perhaps that only ragian picked up on? Sadly there is nothing from Mitch's day one posts indicating this - only ragian potentially targeting Mitch so he could flummox people if he was caught doing it like he has managed to do today.

Either way as I said from my previous posts there are no other better leads that have since been presented so since we are approaching a deadline vote ragian

I suggest we take the risk of lynching ragian as there is some clear suspicions here backed up by evidence.

No other evidence has been presented by anyone against anyone else today so this is the best lead out there. We need to Lynch today and the night phase will bring new evidence tomorrow based on events.

I don't care if people think I am scummy for backing this Lynch, you can all use your night actions and look into me tonight if you will you will find I am clean.

[Djfireside]

Wow.. The thing I posted about happened and I didnt bother to check to make sure it went through. I had posted much like dakky so I will repost everything I had.... I made a similar post to Nag so I will have to change it

Here is my niceities first

I'm sure someone will eventually ask, but I play Mafia on SCII (Star Craft II). It's a custom map, lot of fun.

Yeah its fun. Definately a cool thing and a different style of play but reccommended as well.

Literally three meaningful posts today. I didn't count Ti'm's and Ragian's "prepositions"...

BTW#1, Skoffin your missing posts are maybe missing because you didn't post them?
Someone would notice the same problem if it existed?
I am constantly here but didn't see you posted something except this last one.

Cant speak for it they are truthful but this happens to me all the time, hell it happened to me yesterday when I posted. Ive noticed when it is going to happen to me but the forum errors out on me alot which is why I have been saving any long posts I make just to be safe and checking my post afterward which I forgot to do!

Wife's being induced today so I'll be mia. I'll post yarrow.

Congrats!


Now on to business.


So if we are to go by claims,

Legion can delay but hasnt claimed who they are. Since you have come this far Legion, want to finish your claim? Knowing who you are and what you are classified as shouldnt cause any issues at this point all things considering. Im more curious on what you actually are and havent thought of any reason this would cause issue, you can let me know if I am wrong.

Ragian is a jailer who was delayed but targetted Samlen with no action. I dont think that they would have any accountablity for the Mafia kill since Mafia kill is not an ability I wouldnt believe. It would be shared amongst all of Mafia members I would think. So based on that I would think there would have to be a day killer which in practice makes more sense since Cop was claimed and once that was done they were killed. That makes more sense than a delay kill unless Ragian is a vigilante.

Samlen has some action but didnt use any last night which is interesting and curious but thats for another time.

The Watcher claim I can believe but since Fircoal hasnt been around, they would be an easy person to target but also very easy to test so I can believe this.

I would like to hear from Legion before casting my vote. I have been going through the roles that have been addressed and trying to figure which would fit better being mafia vs town but would like the clarification on Legion if possibly.

[Metsfanmax]

My working assumptions are that legionnaire is telling the truth. The cop is dead, legionnaires innocence has been proved, it is conceivable that ragian was targeted by legionnaire as they had a bit of back and forth day one. So is ragian scum then? The proved townie (throwing godfather theories out the window) seems to think so. When in doubt in a mafia game and differing views are being presented on whether someone is scum I tend to trust the judgement of the person I know is town as other people may be trying to manipulate me into thinking otherwise.

It is eminently sensible, in general, to trust the opinion of a confirmed townie above the opinion of others. But the specific circumstances really matter here and likely outweigh the generalities. As soon as mitch had died, the first thing legionnare posted was that he was 100% certain that his theory of the situation explains what happened. When is anybody ever 100% certain of the facts in mafia, especially in a situation where there were obvious alternatives (like the one you proposed)? I think legionnare is discrediting his own judgment by making statements like that. As I've said before, he could very well be correct, and he has given us the most powerful evidence yet. But him being trustworthy because he's (probably) confirmed town is different from him making good judgments. You really have to factor to that more strongly into your analysis.

[Metsfanmax]

Something has been itching at me about DDS's role claim, so I had the idea of looking at what roles were in the first BNI mafia.

https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewt ... 0#p4569856

If you look, you'll see that all of the roles were named with some human (like I was Dr. Stitchpunk, another person was Reginald Philman, etc.). I was suspicious because I remembered this, and a role name like "Owl" didn't fit into the scheme I had recalled.

Another useful bit of info -- SW kindly indicated what roles did not make it into that game:

So I will post full roles later. Some notes: It wasn't nearly as unbalanced as it could have been and definitely played out that way. Mafia caught a bit of a bad break losing Virus D1 and Cult targeting mafia night 1 was anti-climactic for the third party group (Fun note: The set up called for 8 town, 1 third party and 3 mafia with the stipends that if third party landed on recruiter, they would be cult. Bulletproof or godfather, they would be SK. All others would be regular third party). I think pretty much every role I had in this game that were unique, I would probably use again some point in the future (possibly with some editing). The Fumigator is the one I would be most cautious about just because it led to such a slow end to the game and I was a bit disappointed that DJ never got to use any of his inventions.

List of roles that Random.org did not pick for the game:

1. Cop
2. Thief
3. Tracker
4. Watcher
5. Doctor
6. Jailkeeper
7. Bodyguard
8. Vig
9. Day Vig
10. Redirector
11. Godfather/miller (depending on town or Mafia)
12. Hider
13. Framer
14. Actor
15. Bulletproof
16. Gifter
17. mad Scientist
18. Governor
19. Vote stealer
20. Double voter
21. Enhancer (Causes actions to become unblockable)
22. Smart Bomb (If targeted for a lynch, is allowed to choose the person from their wagon to kill. If targeted for a kill, can choose to kill the one who targeted or player of their choice)
23. Solar Panel (Could target one player at night and allow their ability to be used during the day, would not work on those without active abilities. Really want to use this one at some point in the future).
24. Role Doubler (allows player to use ability twice in one night)

Bolded one for obvious emphasis. If legionnare is really scum and went back to the first game and picked this role as a fakeclaim, I would be quite impressed. Certainly possible though.

(Also, this proves me wrong and Skoffin right, I concede that godfather could be in this game.)

I'd also like to echo the point made that Solar Panel redirects a player's ability, but indeed the collective mafia night kill is not any one player's ability. Still, that's hardly enough to go on.

[nagerous]

If legionnaire was a godfather I don't think he would have drawn this much attention t himself post Mitch's death to try and get a random townie lynched , especially in this fashion , it would have been wholely un-necessary and dangerous for him to do so (for instance DDS could have said hold on I watched ragian and saw no one visited him) and legion would have been caught lying.

This is why I discredit this theory .


And yes I do factor in that the opinion of someone 'confirmed' town isn't necessarily 100% valid and can be flawed. I just always when there is a questionable judgement to make i back the side where I am more trusting of the players validity

[DirtyDishSoap]

@Skoffin, yes you got me down.

@Mets.
It's what was given to me. Sorry I didn't get a cool name like Jack Ventura, bad ass extraordinaire or whatever the jails name was.

[legionnare]

It is eminently sensible, in general, to trust the opinion of a confirmed townie above the opinion of others. But the specific circumstances really matter here and likely outweigh the generalities. As soon as mitch had died, the first thing legionnare posted was that he was 100% certain that his theory of the situation explains what happened. When is anybody ever 100% certain of the facts in mafia, especially in a situation where there were obvious alternatives (like the one you proposed)? I think legionnare is discrediting his own judgment by making statements like that. As I've said before, he could very well be correct, and he has given us the most powerful evidence yet. But him being trustworthy because he's (probably) confirmed town is different from him making good judgments. You really have to factor to that more strongly into your analysis.

@Mets, the reason I feel so confident is that Mitch's unfortunate death answered two of my questions going into D2, what was the result of my night action and why was there no Mafia kill, If I had come out with my information that I had delayed Ragian before this point it would have made it harder to convince people IMO

Legion can delay but hasnt claimed who they are. Since you have come this far Legion, want to finish your claim? Knowing who you are and what you are classified as shouldnt cause any issues at this point all things considering. Im more curious on what you actually are and havent thought of any reason this would cause issue, you can let me know if I am wrong.
I would like to hear from Legion before casting my vote. I have been going through the roles that have been addressed and trying to figure which would fit better being mafia vs town but would like the clarification on Legion if possibly.

@ DJfireside I find it odd that you would ask me my role when there are no votes on me, but if it helps you trust me (as much as you should already have some trust in me considering that Mitch said I was town) I am a Flasher.

But that's just it. Ragian claimed to have jailed me and if I had attempted an action last night, I would have been able to have confirmed.There was pretty much no possible way that he knew that I had taken no action last night unless he was a mafia rolecop and investigated me last night and took the chance with assuming I didn't do anything last night. The more I think about it, the less likely it seems that ragian could be mafia since claiming jailer and claiming to have roleblocked someone since that is incredibly easy to prove.

On the subject of the daykill, it's possible that the mafia have a sniper or something like that which gets a one-time day kill ability. Then again, it could be poison and they got lucky enough to target our cop. In fact, if we go by the flavor text of the scene, it seems more likely to be poison since we found no marks on him.

Ninja'd by nag/ragian

Again, as much as it produces discussion points what does speculating on different methods of how it could have come about actually do other than waste time? It is needlessly muddying the situation by adding in roles that could have succeeded without any supporting information.

Here is my claim again with the supporting info so you have it all in one place;

I targeted Ragian, delaying whatever action he took into the Day phase,
Mitch investigated me and found me to be Town
Mitch died during the Day-phase.

That is the info we have to work with, what conclusions do you draw based on that info?

@Samlen, You still haven't answered this, why?
All you have posted is a repeat;

I still think Ragian isn't likely to be scum... I honestly feel like it's more likely that legionairre is a godfather than ragian is to be scum. I may be repeating myself but Ragian's claim as jailer would be too risky if he was scum, especially in a setup where everyone could have an action. Lynching him for more info doesn't make sense if he's more likely to be a jailer than scum.

You are skimming by and posting little to nothing that adds to the discussion. FOS on you.

[legionnare]

P.S. Congrats on the baby Tim Woodbury!!

[Djfireside]

Legion,
It was just a question, I am finding more in this game the more I try to understand the logic the more I confuse myself. I like to know what I am dealing with at a finite level, maybe just a personal thing, but helps when gathering info. Thank you stating your Role.

[Samlen]

But that's just it. Ragian claimed to have jailed me and if I had attempted an action last night, I would have been able to have confirmed.There was pretty much no possible way that he knew that I had taken no action last night unless he was a mafia rolecop and investigated me last night and took the chance with assuming I didn't do anything last night. The more I think about it, the less likely it seems that ragian could be mafia since claiming jailer and claiming to have roleblocked someone since that is incredibly easy to prove.

On the subject of the daykill, it's possible that the mafia have a sniper or something like that which gets a one-time day kill ability. Then again, it could be poison and they got lucky enough to target our cop. In fact, if we go by the flavor text of the scene, it seems more likely to be poison since we found no marks on him.

Ninja'd by nag/ragian

Again, as much as it produces discussion points what does speculating on different methods of how it could have come about actually do other than waste time? It is needlessly muddying the situation by adding in roles that could have succeeded without any supporting information.

Here is my claim again with the supporting info so you have it all in one place;

I targeted Ragian, delaying whatever action he took into the Day phase,
Mitch investigated me and found me to be Town
Mitch died during the Day-phase.

That is the info we have to work with, what conclusions do you draw based on that info?

@Samlen, You still haven't answered this, why?
All you have posted is a repeat;

I still think Ragian isn't likely to be scum... I honestly feel like it's more likely that legionairre is a godfather than ragian is to be scum. I may be repeating myself but Ragian's claim as jailer would be too risky if he was scum, especially in a setup where everyone could have an action. Lynching him for more info doesn't make sense if he's more likely to be a jailer than scum.

You are skimming by and posting little to nothing that adds to the discussion. FOS on you.

I thought it was apparent but I conclude that it is much more likely that a 1-time day kill ability was used to kill mitch given how unlikely it is for someone to target mitch night 1 UNLESS they knew he was a cop. Hence, I believe it is faulty logic to assume that your delaying of ragian's action makes him scum when it is not likely that he would have targeted mitch in the first place.

[Fircoal]

At this point we're at a bit of an impasse. While I don't trust how legionaire is acting I do think the chances of him being a godfather are quite small although possible. I don't think Ragian is acting like scum but I also don't see any other clear concrete leads. That said the names Flasher and Owl are not ones that are inspiring confidence in their claims.

One thing that has me curious is that Samlen opted not to use his power last night. It does make me wonder what type of power would be opted not to be used rather than be used up.

This night logic is so confusing I wonder if it makes sense for the bus driver to claim or not. On one hand it's a power role and outing them is a bad idea on the other hand it might help figure out what's going on. That said I find it hard to believe that a possible bus driver had anything to do with mitch or legion or else they probably would have said something, which leaves us to read the results as they are... which points to Ragian I guess? Strike, vote count please?

[Metsfanmax]

At this point we're at a bit of an impasse. While I don't trust how legionaire is acting I do think the chances of him being a godfather are quite small although possible. I don't think Ragian is acting like scum but I also don't see any other clear concrete leads. That said the names Flasher and Owl are not ones that are inspiring confidence in their claims.

One thing that has me curious is that Samlen opted not to use his power last night. It does make me wonder what type of power would be opted not to be used rather than be used up.

This night logic is so confusing I wonder if it makes sense for the bus driver to claim or not. On one hand it's a power role and outing them is a bad idea on the other hand it might help figure out what's going on. That said I find it hard to believe that a possible bus driver had anything to do with mitch or legion or else they probably would have said something, which leaves us to read the results as they are... which points to Ragian I guess? Strike, vote count please?

The bus driver thing is a double edged sword. For all we know it's mafia that has a bus driver, and legionnare is scum and got lucky because that bus driver redirected mitch. I'm wary of the value of speculating about these types of scenarios.

[Ragian]

@Chu, as far as I understand it, it hasn't been (and shouldn't be) concluded if Samlen has a night action or not. Or am I reading things wrongly?

It's been a busy weekend and Monday for me. I need to reread the last few pages today.

[TimWoodbury]

Dakky has been playing weird, is not vocal like he normally is

Remember the start of the game? I said I will try to change tactics in this one. It may look weird but you must agree I am playing differently (or weird as you would say).

You got through d1 without being killed so it deffinatly working for you

[Skoffin]

I don't feel it necessary to speculate further on Samlen's lack of action. At this point we've made it clear enough anyway that either Samlen is a role that shouldn't or doesn't need to use his action each night or alternatively he forgot to send one in on time. Either way, meh.

I get that you said earlier you changed how you play Dakky, however thus far it has not been for the better. You were previously quite vocal too, however now you have chosen to take a backseat. This doesn't change my other points about you though, which you did not mention.

Legion - I think Samlen basically did answer your question earlier, just not in the format you wanted. But personally I think you are more devoted to the lynch Ragian theory because you had a hand in gathering that info and thus you have given yourself a bias that is must be the absolute answer.

Mets - for the record, in regards to you being uncomfortable with DDs' particular role claim and his name - while this doesn't clear him of course, I thought it best to mention that my role name is also different to the pattern thus far. I only mention that because if my name differs from standard it becomes plausible that his could, therefore we can't use 'his name isn't in this format' as basis for our evidence.


Nag - Yes, I noticed you didn't vote and asked for caution. You then seemed to go about talking other players into why *they* should vote for Ragian. Now you've gone into why it doesn't make sense for mafia to target mitch, but you are still only going to accept the possibility that Ragian should be our lynch today. Your argument and insistence on Ragian does not make sense nor does it match your level of play.
I just don't even

[Skoffin]

I hope no one is too fussed about sentence structure or spelling as I ceased being alive days ago. I am beyond dead. Soz

[nagerous]

Are people not allowed to express opinions and thoughts without backing it with a vote?

If that is the case then half the people in this game is scummy because no one is fucking voting.

I always said that a lynch is imperative and whilst there were question marks on ragi's case if nothing else materialised I would back it otherwise we will be steam rolling into another no lynch


There was a cult in the original BNI I wouldn't be surprised if there is one here considering the blaseness in regards to actually voting for people that a lot of players in this game have actually shown.

[nagerous]

By calling out me and dakky as coming across as scummy but not voting you seem to be doing exactly what you accuse me of doing.

Only worse as we are now two days away from the end of the day. At the moment ragi is actually getting lynched so if you maintain this standpoint you are complicit in his lynch and just as much as anyone else who actually puts themselves out there and makes a stand on the case

[Ragian]

@Legion, how exactly does your role work? When during the day does the delayed action occur?

---

Wouldn't there be a notification if you were jailed regardless of action taken?

Agree with Samlen. A lot of mods won't notify you.

Well with that, there's nothing more to go on. I still would like to hear from Fircoal or even Skoffin at this point, whom I'm guessing are lurking about.

Unvote Ragian

Then you revote me right after I've made my case on you. Seems like a vote in an attempt to survive given the new rules.

---

Hey Skoffin, do you like gemstones?

What's this about? I hate being left out...

---

[...]My working assumptions are that legionnaire is telling the truth. The cop is dead, legionnaires innocence has been proved, it is conceivable that ragian was targeted by legionnaire as they had a bit of back and forth day one. So is ragian scum then? The proved townie (throwing godfather theories out the window) seems to think so. When in doubt in a mafia game and differing views are being presented on whether someone is scum I tend to trust the judgement of the person I know is town as other people may be trying to manipulate me into thinking otherwise.

[...]

Either way as I said from my previous posts there are no other better leads that have since been presented so since we are approaching a deadline vote ragian

I suggest we take the risk of lynching ragian as there is some clear suspicions here backed up by evidence.

No other evidence has been presented by anyone against anyone else today so this is the best lead out there. We need to Lynch today and the night phase will bring new evidence tomorrow based on events.

I don't care if people think I am scummy for backing this Lynch, you can all use your night actions and look into me tonight if you will you will find I am clean.

I can understand why you would let others think for you, but to me it seems rather careless to let others decide on your behalf (even if they're confirmed town). This way of thinking smells to me of someone who just wants anyone lynched (perhaps as long as their scumbuddies are not on the block).

Moreover, you're asking for more evidence. Mafia isn't just based on whatever investigative roles we have out there. You look at people's play in order to figure out who's lying. Relying on PRs is dangerous. I think there are a few leads out there already. I think DDS is the best lead at the moment. First, he votes me, then there's nothing more to go on, then he revotes me when I find him scummy. Surely an experienced player like you, Nag, would raise an eyebrow at such play.

[DirtyDishSoap]

Dds seems really to be grasping at straws right here.

Here's a question

We lunch legion he turns skum where do we go from there dds?
We lunch legion he turns town where do we go then dds?

We lunch raigan same above where to?

Well, I can tell you we wouldn't be having lunch together for awhile.

In all seriousness, I'll answer all of that in one foul swoop.
Depends on what the night reveals.

At this point we're at a bit of an impasse. While I don't trust how legionaire is acting I do think the chances of him being a godfather are quite small although possible. I don't think Ragian is acting like scum but I also don't see any other clear concrete leads. That said the names Flasher and Owl are not ones that are inspiring confidence in their claims.

I'm so tired of hearing the logic behind a flippin name for a theme. If I posted a picture of the role with an Owl for it, would people be more comfortable with it?

Spoiler

Owl Man isn't amused.

@Mets
Don't forget The Most Distracting Man in the World
If you're really going to gamble on a name, go for it.

Are people not allowed to express opinions and thoughts without backing it with a vote?

Nope.

The bus driver thing is a double edged sword. For all we know it's mafia that has a bus driver, and legionnare is scum and got lucky because that bus driver redirected mitch. I'm wary of the value of speculating about these types of scenarios.

At this point, for me at least, it's safe to assume that we have a BD that is willingly in letting Ragian take the fall to preserve himself, he's mafia as you say, or we simply don't have one. I'm leaning towards the not having one to a maybe with scum possessing one.