Top 10 Clans of All Time

[iAmCaffeine]

and... in response to Caff.... I think you will find that what I said was groundbreaking. I will perhaps be spoken of in the same vein as Kurt Godel in years to come.

you'll be in sun tzu's second book

[HardAttack]

Ice pack did something like that if you scroll up, it’s here I don’t 100% agree with his methodology but it’s a good starting place.

Yeah this was more meant as a fun excersize regarding events. Sounds like his is more all encompassing including time on scene and pick up wars, etc. so a lot more broad then what I put together

I’m open to suggestions on changing the method, I wasn’t planning on really keeping up w or making it some significant thing beyond adding to the discussion a bit

whenever i see you, i start craving for pistachios

[niMic]

and... in response to Caff.... I think you will find that what I said was groundbreaking. I will perhaps be spoken of in the same vein as Kurt Godel in years to come.

you'll be in sun tzu's second book

The Art of Bore?

[TheSpaceCowboy]

and... in response to Caff.... I think you will find that what I said was groundbreaking. I will perhaps be spoken of in the same vein as Kurt Godel in years to come.

you'll be in sun tzu's second book

The Art of Bore?

I don’t post much, but that’s funny.

[iAmCaffeine]

and... in response to Caff.... I think you will find that what I said was groundbreaking. I will perhaps be spoken of in the same vein as Kurt Godel in years to come.

you'll be in sun tzu's second book

The Art of Bore?

[Donelladan]

I realize some people might be under the illusion that "everyone does it" or "the top clans probably do worse", and I hate to burst bubbles, but I know for a fact that neither S&M nor TOFU would ever do that shit. Hell, both clans work energetically to eliminate even the hint of sitting abuse. They play with integrity.

You mean, after they were both caught doing sitting abuse ? So no hell no they'll never be doing that kind of shit ( again ) ?
Because nowadays they have to play with integrity. Just trying to follow.

But in an official clan game, in the Conquerors Cup? No... just no. Clear-cut cheating.

Pretty sure it's completely allowed by current site rule, and not even sure why you're seeing a problem to that.
You're saying it's 100% ok to discuss map strategy before taking a turn, but not specific move on a turn. I fail to see a difference in so many cases.

For example :
100% map strategy : how would you play opening turn of a City Mogul trench double starting with R,Y,B,S base ? do you take Y sub T1 or you wait ?

Asking a 3rd pair of eyes to check your first turn of city mogul : Hey dude, look at my screenshot, do you think I take Y sub 1st turn ?

What's the difference ?
And I can multiply that example 100 times easily.
Asking a "general" strategic question to an expert on a given map just before taking your turn on it, the questions won't be "general", they'll be specific to what you're thinking about on that given game, even if you aren't as precise with territory than on my example.


Anyway, having 10 people check each games together on skype isn't even that much of a strategic advantage imho.
Because if they really do it means those 10 people have to spend sooo much time discussing strategy.
Ever had to discuss a single move with 4 guys having strongly different opinion ? Imagine doing it with 10 guys ! That'll be hell of a mess.
Now let be realistic, maybe only 2-3 guys contribute really to the discussion among those 10, probably those 2-3 guys are the best on the map and are already the one playing it. They just have the discussion on a general channel rather than a private one. No big deal.
Probably as you say, if one guy was really contributing to every discussion, then he'll be burned out pretty quickly.

Your comparison with chess doesn't make sense to me. Is chess a team game ?

[Arama86n]

Well Don, I joined TOFU in 2012. That is a long time ago. And the events (sitting violations) you speak of took place a year before that. During my entire eight year stint in TOFU the sitting rules were adhered to as well as humanly possible, and after discussions with several members of S&M I feel certain they have taken it as seriously.
I can only account for my time in the scene, and feel that the last eight years are more relevant than events that took place before that.( ie about ten years ago.)

I see your point, but that is rather conquest-map specific.
I don't know how LHDD does things, but TOFU doesn't usually have people play clan games on maps they don't know. And if ever there is need of fillers in for example a quads game, there will be 2-3 people who know the map very well. There is never any need to consult anyone outside the game in regards to strategy, or to ask for tips on how to play the map. Never.
And we always felt it wouldn't be on the level to do that anyway. I'm actually rather surprised to learn this isn't as common of a sentiment as I thought...

In regards to more people contributing being a potential draw-back, I can see your point. Depends entirely on the people of course, but I agree that ten people trying to agree on a move for a game is not something I would aspire too. But apparently, others have felt differently.
On the other hand, with good communication four heads are better than two. So it is not unreasonable to think that having six people instead of four looking at something could be an advantage (and in my opinion, an unfair advantage). Against, depends on the people.

Can I infer from your post that you/LHDD do not agree with my sentiment on this subject? Do you have people outside the games giving advice to your teams?

Personally I have always tried to play in good faith, aspired to good sportsmanship, and to follow the spirit of the rules, even if specific rules are absent.

[IcePack]

FALL was similar, I always pushed people to play within the rules and be good sports (as much as possible). My feeling has always been those assigned the game should be the ones involved and playing, otherwise why assign it at all? Supposed to be team ABC vs XYZ, not ABC (and secretly DEFGHI joining in as needed).

Just my thoughts and how things were handled there.

[HardAttack]

I realize some people might be under the illusion that "everyone does it" or "the top clans probably do worse", and I hate to burst bubbles, but I know for a fact that neither S&M nor TOFU would ever do that shit. Hell, both clans work energetically to eliminate even the hint of sitting abuse. They play with integrity.

You mean, after they were both caught doing sitting abuse ? So no hell no they'll never be doing that kind of shit ( again ) ?
Because nowadays they have to play with integrity. Just trying to follow.

But in an official clan game, in the Conquerors Cup? No... just no. Clear-cut cheating.

Pretty sure it's completely allowed by current site rule, and not even sure why you're seeing a problem to that.
You're saying it's 100% ok to discuss map strategy before taking a turn, but not specific move on a turn. I fail to see a difference in so many cases.

For example :
100% map strategy : how would you play opening turn of a City Mogul trench double starting with R,Y,B,S base ? do you take Y sub T1 or you wait ?

Asking a 3rd pair of eyes to check your first turn of city mogul : Hey dude, look at my screenshot, do you think I take Y sub 1st turn ?

What's the difference ?
And I can multiply that example 100 times easily.
Asking a "general" strategic question to an expert on a given map just before taking your turn on it, the questions won't be "general", they'll be specific to what you're thinking about on that given game, even if you aren't as precise with territory than on my example.


Anyway, having 10 people check each games together on skype isn't even that much of a strategic advantage imho.
Because if they really do it means those 10 people have to spend sooo much time discussing strategy.
Ever had to discuss a single move with 4 guys having strongly different opinion ? Imagine doing it with 10 guys ! That'll be hell of a mess.
Now let be realistic, maybe only 2-3 guys contribute really to the discussion among those 10, probably those 2-3 guys are the best on the map and are already the one playing it. They just have the discussion on a general channel rather than a private one. No big deal.
Probably as you say, if one guy was really contributing to every discussion, then he'll be burned out pretty quickly.

Your comparison with chess doesn't make sense to me. Is chess a team game ?

very well put.

[willedtowin1]

LMFAO
You all Communicate....Every One of You in the Top Clans!
No matter how you word it......
This thread is as about as Bad as our USA/ World wide political situation.
Gimme a Fucking Break. Many of us are not as stupid as you think.

Disclaimer: I will Laughingly not Ever Reply Back
Just wanted to state the Obvious


(as much as possible) LMFAO

[Extreme Ways]

LMFAO
You all Communicate....Every One of You in the Top Clans!
No matter how you word it......
This thread is as about as Bad as our USA/ World wide political situation.
Gimme a Fucking Break. Many of us are not as stupid as you think.

Disclaimer: I will Laughingly not Ever Reply Back
Just wanted to state the Obvious


(as much as possible) LMFAO

Yes, we communicate in the teams that play the game. Some top clans more than others. No, we don't compeltely lift fog to teammates to ask for advice.

[niMic]

LMFAO
You all Communicate....Every One of You in the Top Clans!
No matter how you word it......
This thread is as about as Bad as our USA/ World wide political situation.
Gimme a Fucking Break. Many of us are not as stupid as you think.

Disclaimer: I will Laughingly not Ever Reply Back
Just wanted to state the Obvious


(as much as possible) LMFAO

You may not be as stupid as we think, but you're definitely not as smart as you think.

[rockfist]

I would not play a game that would have 10 people giving advice on how to play it and if that many people tried to weigh in I would put an end to it. Granted I'm not the best player ever, but I'm pretty good and too many cooks spoils the soup every time.

[iAmCaffeine]

Maybe betiko can shed some light on this but surely the whole "all of pack weighed on every move" thing is really just a way for the best players in the clan to give directions in every game lol

[Shannon Apple]

I realize some people might be under the illusion that "everyone does it" or "the top clans probably do worse", and I hate to burst bubbles, but I know for a fact that neither S&M nor TOFU would ever do that shit. Hell, both clans work energetically to eliminate even the hint of sitting abuse. They play with integrity.

You mean, after they were both caught doing sitting abuse ? So no hell no they'll never be doing that kind of shit ( again ) ?
Because nowadays they have to play with integrity. Just trying to follow.

That's absolute nonsense, Don. Being IN one of those clans, (I joined KoRT back in 2013 I think) I know that there were accusations flying left right and center that weren't true, or exaggerated. One player in particular used to jump in to save turns because he was always around, not because he had some arrangement to take people's turns. Some of those turns would have been misses due to people's real lives, as happens in every war. But then, I do remember a player who got in trouble by the clan for missing too many turns. They got told to take their own damn turns, or they'd get no more games, since it put the clan in a position to be accused of abuse. Maybe they had a legit reason, but it puts people in a precarious position. "Do I let this turn go, or do I take it? Is it crucial for the game? Will it cost the clan the war?" That's certainly not some intentional scheme.

No clan wants a bad label, and it's unfair to the other team members who have to carry a turn misser, and then possibly get accused of cheating. You either have the time to play your own turns, or you don't. If you don't, don't take the games in the first place. It's that simple.

I don't believe that any clan is immune to the whole having to cover someone's turns scenerio. It's just that all eyes were watching KoRT and TOFU during those crazy few years when the entire site hated both clans. If they so much as moved, they got reported. lol.

Oh I know the idea that KoRT and TOFU cheated their way to the top is a glamorous idea for low ranked clans of the time. It made them feel better, or something. The reality of that is just people spontaneously missing turns. They didn't stop cheating because they weren't cheating in the first place. While it was never acceptable, they just made it even scarier to miss your turns. Some angry clan members would verbally kick your ass, and rightly so.

As for the other accusation: If a team of players in KoRT/S&M needed to be babysat by other clan members outside of their game, they wouldn't be in the clan in the first place.

[rockfist]

Shannon,

Don knows the truth of what you are saying. He has sat as much or more than most people around here. He’s just having a go at S&M and TOFU because it’s low hanging fruit.

[iAmCaffeine]

i mean, to be fair, nobody did it to the same extent as cof or josko either. old news these days though and nobody really cares.

[niMic]

Sure, but that's just because josko is the single most dedicated CC player I've ever played with. As Shannon says, he was "always" around. And I still remember him as that new guy who had no team-game experience but was recruited anyway. It was easy to see where he was going.

[Donelladan]

Can I infer from your post that you/LHDD do not agree with my sentiment on this subject? Do you have people outside the games giving advice to your teams?

Yes, you can infer that I do not agree with your sentiment on this subject.
And yes it did happen on some occasion that people outside the game gave advice about a move or a particular situation.
I got no problem disclosing it as I don't see a particular issue with that.
It's not smthg that happens often, during most wars it doesn't happen, and most people don't ask about do it either.
But myself sometimes I've asked "what do you think, would you try that or that ? "
Can be for different reasons. Sometimes because I disagree with my partner and wanted a 3rd opinion because we couldn't resolve our argument for example.

And no I don't think it's cheating or unfair. Outside players aren't logging into the game, don't participate on each move, nor are they present when the actual players play the turn. We're quite a close group and speak about our games a lot ( I mean by that, we speak about what happened, how someone threw such shitty/amazing role, how the opponents performed etc, not we speak a lot on where to deploy/attack). But then sometimes it can happen someone throw a question about a specific turn, that just goes with the flow. It happened also on game outsides of clan wars, multiplayers game or 1vs1, asking for strategic advice or not ( like chat-related or truce-related). And I never saw any of that as cheating/poor sportmanship or unfair.


@Shannon - Arama86n said that he joined in 2012 and that the events I am referring to happened a year before that.
Seeing as you joined in 2013, I'd say you are mistaken.
I wasn't there back then either ( on CC but not as active in the clan scene and not reading C&A). Thus I will not speak about the veracity of the facts. But you must know that players from both clan were warned for sitting abuse. Hence I don't think I am speaking about "absolute nonsense".

And the current clan sitting rules were created because of what happened and because of those two clans.
Know I really like what you said in your post about sitting, and @rockfist, yes i do know the truth of what Shannon is saying, but do TOFU and S&M know it ?
The only two clans that ever complained about sitting in a clan war against LHDD were... TOFU and S&M ( privately or in public, some complains were transmitted in a nicer way.) -

Oh I know the idea that KoRT and TOFU cheated their way to the top is a glamorous idea for low ranked clans of the time.

Not my point at all, I have lot of respect for the achievements of S&M and TOFU and to me they deserve all the titles/wins they got.

[iAmCaffeine]

Sure, but that's just because josko is the single most dedicated CC player I've ever played with

that's a positive spin on it sure

[Shannon Apple]

@Shannon - Arama86n said that he joined in 2012 and that the events I am referring to happened a year before that.
Seeing as you joined in 2013, I'd say you are mistaken.
I wasn't there back then either ( on CC but not as active in the clan scene and not reading C&A). Thus I will not speak about the veracity of the facts. But you must know that players from both clan were warned for sitting abuse. Hence I don't think I am speaking about "absolute nonsense".

And the current clan sitting rules were created because of what happened and because of those two clans.
Know I really like what you said in your post about sitting, and @rockfist, yes i do know the truth of what Shannon is saying, but do TOFU and S&M know it ?
The only two clans that ever complained about sitting in a clan war against LHDD were... TOFU and S&M ( privately or in public, some complains were transmitted in a nicer way.) -

That may be true. I don't know a whole lot of what went on before I got pulled into the clan scene. In fact, I knew nothing and never read clan forums. I was approached by a few clans to consider joining them, not the other way around. I had to ask, "what exactly do you do in a clan and what's the benefit of joining one?" I was green to it all. Ultimately, I joined KoRT.

BUT... in 2013, it was still happening. People were still accusing the clans of cheating. I tried out for three different clans who approached me. One clan leader in one of the other clans was like "Well, if you do decide to accept KoRT's invitation, you will never be accepted here if you change your mind later. They cheated their way to the top." I knew that was idle gossip. Top clans are never liked... in any game. I've played other games with a clan system, so I know this to be true. XD

In Live Chat, people actually said that "Josko just takes all of your turns for you anyway." This was said on several occasions by different people. They were of the bizarre opinion that somehow Josko had the time to look at everyone's games and direct people's turns, or just jump in their account and do it for them. KoRT had many great players, including Josko, and I learned a lot from them.

Josko doesn't spend as much time on CC as he used to. He was addicted to CC back in those days haha. He was here all the time, and he was available to jump on almost every near missed turn. He wasn't doing that deliberately and had no arrangements with players. He even let some turns miss if they weren't crucial like a loss anyway, or the game was in clean up. Because of his availability, people were still bringing the accusations.

Now, I don't know what happened before all that. Nimic and other people who were around in forever would have a better idea. But, I do know that all of the accusations happening in 2013 and beyond that were spurious and centered on a deep hatred of both KoRT and TOFU.

[iAmCaffeine]

You do talk like josko never intentionally broke and abused sitting rules when we all know he did. Of course that was a long time ago. I just don't understand why you and nimic both talk like it never happened. So whilst saying KORT cheated their way to the top is exaggerating and a little stupid, they wouldn't be saying it if the clan had been 100% legit. Same goes for TOFU. Both clans had their moments of letting themselves down, but for the most part both clans have been brilliant.

[niMic]

I talk like that because it's what happened. I can guarantee you josko never tried to break any rules. I am reasonably sure KoRT/S&M has never once planned for one player to miss so that a better player (e.g. josko) could sit. That would be incredibly disrespectful to the player in question, and we would never have a player who couldn't be trusted to take their own turns. If we discovered that after recruiting them, the result would be them leaving the clan, not telling them to "miss" turns.

Basically what Shannon says is what happened. Josko was around all the time, and was willing to sit. That's it. The only time any KoRT/S&M player has sat for another is either for a planned absence (which as I recall wasn't very well defined back in the day, but basically amounted to vacations or other situations where you knew you wouldn't be able to take the turns), or emergency sitting.

[iAmCaffeine]

Yeah I mean, whatever. Not gonna debate things that happened years ago.

Hope all the clannies enjoy their Christmas, top 10 or not.

[rockfist]

I don't know josko well, but I think part of the reason he is disliked is the same reason that top clans are disliked. I guarantee most people (clan world or otherwise) do not even understand a lot of the moves he makes; they are usually brilliant. I do not always understand some of the stuff he does - and (on paper at least) I'm better than most people. So people pick him apart to make themselves feel better about their CC abilities. But tearing him down, doesn't make them better players or better people. Maybe he broke the rules a long time ago - maybe he did not. I do not care. I want to beat him and S&M now and I can't worry about the past.