Balance Not Included Come Back Mafia End Game: Mod Down!!!

[legionnare]

Okay so tell me, who's familiar with the concept of occam's razor? The simplest solution to a problem is often the correct one.
In this instance that would be me delaying Ragian's night-kill on Mitch. The other solutions add in too many other steps and therefore reduce the odds on them being correct.
I will try and refute the other solutions and provide the answers to some questions that have been asked;

Why would Mitch be targeted for night-kill? - Why would anyone? Proceeding on the assumption that Mitch wouldn't be targeted because he is Mitch is just plain folly, he was a player with a role so was every much as likely to be targeted than anyone else.

Adding in a bussing role - As above increases the odds, drastically in this case as we would have the same target.

Adding in a mafia day-kill - As much as this is balance not included, mafia having both day and night kill would end the game far too quickly, it won't be a Town day-kill that killed a cop, in a game this small I would say it's a slim likelihood that there is a 3rd party and lastly if there is a day-kill ability why was there no kill yesterday?

Ragian's jailer claim - No possible way to clarify it today, as much as I applaud Ragian's play today after my reveal though it seems to me to be too nice and trying to stay on everyone's side, don't get me wrong I have nothing against him, just with the information currently available in play Ragian is the most likely candidate.

In short, it would be a disaster for us if we did not lynch anyone today, Ragian is the best candidate for a lynch and either way it swings we gain, if he is Mafia as I am certain he is then we obviously benefit as well as casting suspicion on those who are currently defending him so vehemently, or it turns out he is Town and the opposite is true.

[nagerous]

If mafia has a day kill why would it not have been used day one?

However Mitch by claiming cop painted a massive target on his back. If mafia had a one shot day vig they would use it instantly on Mitch. That is what we have to be wary of here and this is why it requires more lateral thinking than just OMGZ raglan is being scum.

That being said thi may be the best lead we have all day and would be folly to not trust legionnaire now he has been declared as town. However there is no rush at this stage.

[Ragian]

Ragian's jailer claim - No possible way to clarify it today, as much as I applaud Ragian's play today after my reveal though it seems to me to be too nice and trying to stay on everyone's side, don't get me wrong I have nothing against him, just with the information currently available in play Ragian is the most likely candidate.

In short, it would be a disaster for us if we did not lynch anyone today, Ragian is the best candidate for a lynch and either way it swings we gain, if he is Mafia as I am certain he is then we obviously benefit as well as casting suspicion on those who are currently defending him so vehemently, or it turns out he is Town and the opposite is true.

First, if you're looking for bile and shouting, I suggest you wall Wing, Storr, or Nark. That's not my game. It seems to me that your way of gauging my reaction is similar to how creationists explain dinosaurs.

Spoiler

Second, I agree that we should lynch today and that currently I reveal the best information. I don't necessarily agree, however, that people defending me are naturally scum/town depending on what I flip and similar for those who attack me. Scum know that I'm town, so the smart scum play would be for some scum to defend me for town cred. You need to factor that in. You should look for opportunist votes.

[Samlen]

But that's just it. Ragian claimed to have jailed me and if I had attempted an action last night, I would have been able to have confirmed.There was pretty much no possible way that he knew that I had taken no action last night unless he was a mafia rolecop and investigated me last night and took the chance with assuming I didn't do anything last night. The more I think about it, the less likely it seems that ragian could be mafia since claiming jailer and claiming to have roleblocked someone since that is incredibly easy to prove.

On the subject of the daykill, it's possible that the mafia have a sniper or something like that which gets a one-time day kill ability. Then again, it could be poison and they got lucky enough to target our cop. In fact, if we go by the flavor text of the scene, it seems more likely to be poison since we found no marks on him.

Ninja'd by nag/ragian

[nagerous]

But that's just it. Ragian claimed to have jailed me and if I had attempted an action last night, I would have been able to have confirmed.There was pretty much no possible way that he knew that I had taken no action last night unless he was a mafia rolecop and investigated me last night and took the chance with assuming I didn't do anything last night. The more I think about it, the less likely it seems that ragian could be mafia since claiming jailer and claiming to have roleblocked someone since that is incredibly easy to prove.

On the subject of the daykill, it's possible that the mafia have a sniper or something like that which gets a one-time day kill ability. Then again, it could be poison and they got lucky enough to target our cop. In fact, if we go by the flavor text of the scene, it seems more likely to be poison since we found no marks on him.

Ninja'd by nag/ragian

Not every night action you proof that your action is successful there are a number of roles that do not, it is only really investigative roles that give you night action response flavour (or killing roles and there were no deaths)

With one investingative role already down it wasn't that much of a stretch and the odds would be in his favour that the person he targeted for his 'night action' didn't get a role. With the noose around his neck virtually already raglan was backed into a corner with his claim and had to make it seem remotely believable, in this case suckering you...though the alternative which seems too risky is you are a scum partner.

Either way he potentially has his scum partners and you now in his corner.

I can see there are arguments on both sides but I am more inclined to put my faith in the confirmed town legionnaire at the moment

[legionnare]

Ragian's jailer claim - No possible way to clarify it today, as much as I applaud Ragian's play today after my reveal though it seems to me to be too nice and trying to stay on everyone's side, don't get me wrong I have nothing against him, just with the information currently available in play Ragian is the most likely candidate.

In short, it would be a disaster for us if we did not lynch anyone today, Ragian is the best candidate for a lynch and either way it swings we gain, if he is Mafia as I am certain he is then we obviously benefit as well as casting suspicion on those who are currently defending him so vehemently, or it turns out he is Town and the opposite is true.

First, if you're looking for bile and shouting, I suggest you wall Wing, Storr, or Nark. That's not my game. It seems to me that your way of gauging my reaction is similar to how creationists explain dinosaurs.

Spoiler

Second, I agree that we should lynch today and that currently I reveal the best information. I don't necessarily agree, however, that people defending me are naturally scum/town depending on what I flip and similar for those who attack me. Scum know that I'm town, so the smart scum play would be for some scum to defend me for town cred. You need to factor that in. You should look for opportunist votes.

A fair point but I wasn't necessarily meaning bile and shouting, more the change in tone from Day 1 to Day 2, seemed remarkable to me.

[legionnare]

But that's just it. Ragian claimed to have jailed me and if I had attempted an action last night, I would have been able to have confirmed.There was pretty much no possible way that he knew that I had taken no action last night unless he was a mafia rolecop and investigated me last night and took the chance with assuming I didn't do anything last night. The more I think about it, the less likely it seems that ragian could be mafia since claiming jailer and claiming to have roleblocked someone since that is incredibly easy to prove.

On the subject of the daykill, it's possible that the mafia have a sniper or something like that which gets a one-time day kill ability. Then again, it could be poison and they got lucky enough to target our cop. In fact, if we go by the flavor text of the scene, it seems more likely to be poison since we found no marks on him.

Ninja'd by nag/ragian

Again, as much as it produces discussion points what does speculating on different methods of how it could have come about actually do other than waste time? It is needlessly muddying the situation by adding in roles that could have succeeded without any supporting information.

Here is my claim again with the supporting info so you have it all in one place;

I targeted Ragian, delaying whatever action he took into the Day phase,
Mitch investigated me and found me to be Town
Mitch died during the Day-phase.

That is the info we have to work with, what conclusions do you draw based on that info?

[Ragian]

What's the change, if I may? (I assume you're already factoring in the different situations you and I are in, you being or only confirmed town and I on the block, as opposed to D1. )

FP'ed

[legionnare]

@Ragian

P.S. I know exactly where to find bile and shouting, that's why I am enjoying this game so much more than the pokemon one.

FP'd by Ragian,

Factoring the different situations in you seem more conciliatory than I would expect and less willing to build a case on anyone else. You aren't the only potential scum out there and it seems surprising to me that you aren't trying to build a counter case.

[Ragian]

Honestly, I'm not going to build a case just now as it will reek of misdirection . I have, however, pointed to a few things. Also, I've elaborated all I can, and now you guys need to make a decision. Whether you lynch me or not, I can still win as town. If you come to the conclusion that I must go for the greater good, I will present all the stuff I deem worthy. If you ask me because you're hesitant about killing me, I will present all the stuff I deem worthy. Right now, though, I fear it will serve me and town a disadvantage.

Also, I'm hitting the hay now. Will be back tomorrow.

[TimWoodbury]

you can still win as town?? that reeks of 3rd party soft claim ragian. with that said id rather kill a skum then 3rd party but 3rd paty is better then killing town

[nagerous]

you can still win as town?? that reeks of 3rd party soft claim ragian. with that said id rather kill a skum then 3rd party but 3rd paty is better then killing town

He is saying he can win as town even if he gets lynched if town still wins. The opposite of a third party claim

[TimWoodbury]

ahhh okay i misread that post.

[Ragian]

Prepositions can be tricky

[Metsfanmax]

Why would Mitch be targeted for night-kill? - Why would anyone? Proceeding on the assumption that Mitch wouldn't be targeted because he is Mitch is just plain folly, he was a player with a role so was every much as likely to be targeted than anyone else.

No, it's not "folly." If you want to play the probability game (and you should) then you cannot merely argue that any player was as likely to be targeted as anyone else. And in this case, there's a reasonable argument to be made that smart scum who know this forum's meta wouldn't target mitch, because he often hurts town merely by existing. (With no offense meant to mitch, of course, I'm just telling it like it is. I still like playing with you, buddy.) I mean, this D2 is pretty much enough evidence for it. Of course it's not impossible that mitch would be targeted, but it's not absurd to argue that he is less likely than others to be targets, especially when you have someone as experienced as Ragian being accused of the kill.

Adding in a bussing role - As above increases the odds, drastically in this case as we would have the same target.

Ok, but that wouldn't really affect the situation. A bus could explain why, if Ragian was scum and sent in a kill, it ended up on mitch and not someone else. But Ragian would still be scum, so we'd still lynch him.

Adding in a mafia day-kill - As much as this is balance not included, mafia having both day and night kill would end the game far too quickly, it won't be a Town day-kill that killed a cop, in a game this small I would say it's a slim likelihood that there is a 3rd party and lastly if there is a day-kill ability why was there no kill yesterday?

I mean, we don't actually know for sure that mafia do have a night kill. But, assuming that it is the case, a more plausible alternative to your scenario is that mafia got blocked somehow last night (either roleblocked or doc-blocked) and there's a 3rd party vig with a day kill.

Ragian's jailer claim - No possible way to clarify it today, as much as I applaud Ragian's play today after my reveal though it seems to me to be too nice and trying to stay on everyone's side, don't get me wrong I have nothing against him, just with the information currently available in play Ragian is the most likely candidate.

I thought this post was about refuting other options? This isn't a refutation.

In short, it would be a disaster for us if we did not lynch anyone today, Ragian is the best candidate for a lynch and either way it swings we gain, if he is Mafia as I am certain he is then we obviously benefit as well as casting suspicion on those who are currently defending him so vehemently, or it turns out he is Town and the opposite is true.

It is likely that Ragian is still the best lynch candidate, and if nothing better comes up by the end of the day I'll probably put my vote back. However I think you're kind of underestimating how serious it would be to lose a jailer if you're wrong.

[Skoffin]

I made two posts last night, one of which was in here, but it appears that it does not exist here and I have no idea what happened to it.

In any case, the ragian lynch: Sorry but I just do not buy that mafia, especially Ragian, chose Mitch of all people to try to night kill. Mitch is a great asset for scum team, realistically, and it just doesn't make any sort of sense as a strategy; not when we have other high value players they could have offed instead. I'm going to add another theory to our current theory list; I know for a fact that last night I happened to be immune to night kills, so there is also the possibility that no NK happened if the mafia targeted me. If you consider me in say the top 5 most likely NK options, or even if you just think I'm more likely a pick than Mitch, than this could very well be what happened. But really we have no way of knowing, and I don't like it when people try to insist "this is what happened!" when they don't have a strong enough basis for it. The only person out of those that are not suspicious is legion himself, as he is the one who had access to this extra info and it's reasonable for him to believe strongly in it. So I concur on people such as dakky and DDS.

I think it's more likely that we have a scumster that had a day ability, likely a one-off, as I find it dubious a suggestion that the mod allowed mitch to roam freely throughout the day conveniently until mitch revealed his info and them BAM! perfect timing mitch is now dead. Soz, I think mafia targeted someone else at night and that mafia day killed mitch when they saw he was a cop.

[DirtyDishSoap]

See my reply earlier for Mitch being Mitch.

And to counter both your arguments for Mitch. If everyone is being adamant about Mitch hurting town more and scum wanting to keep him alive, wouldn't you think that I'm not actually scum and would rather have him alive anyways and not start the wagon?

Assuming I was scum, I'm positive my other scum mates would say "No, leave Mitch alone, we need him!"

Again, this is a flimsy argument at best.

[dakky21]

Literally three meaningful posts today. I didn't count Ti'm's and Ragian's "prepositions"...

BTW#1, Skoffin your missing posts are maybe missing because you didn't post them?
Someone would notice the same problem if it existed?
I am constantly here but didn't see you posted something except this last one.

BTW#2 I think Legion killed mitch after he claimed cop. The "time related" thing seems like a great fake claim.

[Skoffin]

I always post in all games at the same time. I wrote a post here, I do not know why it's not there now. Whether that be "lol you didn't hit submit" or "forum ate the post" I cannot say for certain; however I am not the only person that has ever mentioned losing a post. Fairly certain a player in pokemon said they lost a post, Mandy has said he's lost posts, and if anyone else has experienced it they can feel free to say so.

I am unclear on whether you think I am lying for scumster reasons or whether it's personal dislike, I am assuming it's because you believe I'm scum, but do elaborate on what my motive might be so I can accurately respond. If it's scumster reasons I can give you a rebuttal, if it's personal there's nothing to say there.

@DirtyDishSoap

I think you misunderstood my point; I'm not saying mafia would never kill mitch, I'm saying there is no reason for mafia to kill mitch unless they absolutely have to. "We don't know what anyone's role might be" means they will prioritise strong players, "mitch is a cop!" means obviously kill the cop. And I am specifically saying there is no reason for mafia to random kill mitch at night, nothing about during the day. The purpose of not killing mitch at night would be to keep him around as a backup lynch for the day time. You are completely changing the argument to something that is not close to being accurate.

And again, it's way too convenient that mitch happened to live long enough to reveal his info and then he died so close after it, it's simply more likely that a scumster sent in a day action to remove a cop.

[DirtyDishSoap]

Sorry but I just do not buy that mafia, especially Ragian, chose Mitch of all people to try to night kill. Mitch is a great asset for scum team, realistically, and it just doesn't make any sort of sense as a strategy;

Pretty sure I didn't misunderstand.

Mitch: Well let's face it, mitch is a bad player. But is he this bad of a player? Maybe

why would scum have targeted mitch for a kill last night, especially if Ragian was the scum in question? Totally doesn't seem his MO.

Pretty sure it's not a slip, it's just mitch being mitch. You can say a lot of things about mitch, but being that bad at mafia really isn't one of them.

It made sense to jump on Mitch.

I only quoted this one to show that while I did start a wagon on Mitch, I clearly wasn't the only one that thought it made sense at the time.

So, no, I didn't misinterpret, nor did I change the argument at all. Of course mafia (3rd Party?) killed Mitch after he was revealed to be cop. No brainer there.
You're the one attempting to change your own argument to fit your claim. I'm merely pointing out that several people, yourself included, had echoed that it made 0 sense for anyone to try and kill Mitch BEFORE his role claim.

[Ragian]

I kept getting annoyed that that quote keeps being posted without the poper context. Revisiting my own proper context, however, I can see my initial adverb ruins my entire argument.

It made sense to jump on Mitch. Especially, if you're not used to playing with him.

Obviously, I should have left that out since it changes what I meant. So there's no way I can get angry about that. (So, I'm sorry, Mets, okay?!) I can only state that what I meant was this:

It made sense to jump on Mitch. Especially, if you're not used to playing with him.

I wanted to clarify that because I never jumped on mitch. I wanted him to elaborate his confusing post.

DDS, however, jumped on him (although you had to use two posts to vote properly ):

I'm viewing it as a slip, just poorly written.

Vote Mitchell until he has some backpedal statement.

My rambling at the top was meant as a statement declaring that I could understand that because of DDS' lack of games with Mitch. Mets, however, is not that lenient:

It made sense to jump on Mitch.

No it didn't. Nothing in mitch's post suggested even weakly that he had targeted Legion for a kill; it was a point manufactured by DDS. But I agree that it's hard to judge DDS on this if he's unfamiliar with mitch's play. It's dakky that I'm more suspicious of, he should know better than just to blindly buy into something like this.

While I still think that DDS' jump on Mitch can be excused, I need to view it in light of other things too:

1) DDS wanted a no lynch D1 saying that usually he has little time to do anything D1 due to their brief nature. That doesn't make any sense as an argument here, though. D1 is not over quickly. Going for a no lynch D1 gets you absolutely no information to work on D2 (unless you're lucky with PRs), neither do we have any lynch vote to examine retrospectively. I.e. D1 no lynch benefits scum.
2) Reaction to Legion's revelation.

Agreed, no sense in arguing with legion.

Jep. Dakky jumping on board negating himself. There's your scumster. Now, I'm out till tomorrow morning ish. Do not lynch me without my story at least. Good can come from this development.

You've had until previously and (now) to write your story, I'm a little confused why we should wait if you're unwilling to explain it in the past few posts after legion made his claim?
Perhaps you're coming back to edit your story.

Vote Ragian

First off, there's plenty of sense arguing with Legion. Not about what he has done (we can't check that, obviously), but definitely about the implications. Secondly, I don't write long posts on my phone explaining role and actions. Those posts require concentration and overview. I even made it clear in the post that I was out till that morning. You assume that I'm constantly online. That's unfair. And if your rebuttal is going to be that I could've just posted my role and action, please notice a) that I actually took my time late that night when I returned to do exactly that and b) that the post is too friggin' long to be typed properly from a phone.

3) Your backing down

Wouldn't there be a notification if you were jailed regardless of action taken?

Agree with Samlen. A lot of mods won't notify you.

Well with that, there's nothing more to go on. I still would like to hear from Fircoal or even Skoffin at this point, whom I'm guessing are lurking about.

Unvote Ragian

Despite the fact that there was no sense arguing with Legion, you retract your vote. Your vote was opportunist thinking that I was going down for sure, and now that you see that I'm not instantly lynched, you're getting cold feet.

That suffices for me: Vote DDS

I know that I said that I wouldn't make any cases before I was asked, but this is going nowhere, and I feel there's enough meat on this baby.

[DirtyDishSoap]

I kept getting annoyed that that quote keeps being posted without the poper context. Revisiting my own proper context, however, I can see my initial adverb ruins my entire argument.

It made sense to jump on Mitch. Especially, if you're not used to playing with him.

Obviously, I should have left that out since it changes what I meant. So there's no way I can get angry about that. (So, I'm sorry, Mets, okay?!) I can only state that what I meant was this:

It made sense to jump on Mitch. Especially, if you're not used to playing with him.

I wanted to clarify that because I never jumped on mitch. I wanted him to elaborate his confusing post.

DDS, however, jumped on him (although you had to use two posts to vote properly ):

I'm viewing it as a slip, just poorly written.

Vote Mitchell until he has some backpedal statement.

I was on my cellphone to be fair. Gimme a break, I ain't perfect.

My rambling at the top was meant as a statement declaring that I could understand that because of DDS' lack of games with Mitch. Mets, however, is not that lenient:

It made sense to jump on Mitch.

No it didn't. Nothing in mitch's post suggested even weakly that he had targeted Legion for a kill; it was a point manufactured by DDS. But I agree that it's hard to judge DDS on this if he's unfamiliar with mitch's play. It's dakky that I'm more suspicious of, he should know better than just to blindly buy into something like this.

While I still think that DDS' jump on Mitch can be excused, I need to view it in light of other things too:

1) DDS wanted a no lynch D1 saying that usually he has little time to do anything D1 due to their brief nature. That doesn't make any sense as an argument here, though. D1 is not over quickly. Going for a no lynch D1 gets you absolutely no information to work on D2 (unless you're lucky with PRs), neither do we have any lynch vote to examine retrospectively. I.e. D1 no lynch benefits scum.

Again, different experiences, D1's with a lynch typically end with a townie. I mean, great and all that days go on longer here on the forum, but what information did we get in D1 exactly? A few scummy posts here and there, and that's it. I'll be an advocate in this game and any future games for a no lynch on D1. That's my stance on it, if you or anyone else don't like it, then I simply won't play here. Pretty simple logic if you ask me.

The upside of calling everyone scum and making 1000 predictions is that statistically you should get a few right.

How true this applies here...

2) Reaction to Legion's revelation.

Agreed, no sense in arguing with legion.

Jep. Dakky jumping on board negating himself. There's your scumster. Now, I'm out till tomorrow morning ish. Do not lynch me without my story at least. Good can come from this development.

You've had until previously and (now) to write your story, I'm a little confused why we should wait if you're unwilling to explain it in the past few posts after legion made his claim?
Perhaps you're coming back to edit your story.

Vote Ragian

First off, there's plenty of sense arguing with Legion. Not about what he has done (we can't check that, obviously), but definitely about the implications. Secondly, I don't write long posts on my phone explaining role and actions. Those posts require concentration and overview. I even made it clear in the post that I was out till that morning. You assume that I'm constantly online. That's unfair. And if your rebuttal is going to be that I could've just posted my role and action, please notice a) that I actually took my time late that night when I returned to do exactly that and b) that the post is too friggin' long to be typed properly from a phone.

So you've had the time for a few rebuttals but no explanation? It was suspicious, nontheless. I get it, we all have lives, but when someone is commenting and reading what was has transpired, and let it sit for 2 hours in between and then just leaves, it's pretty ridiculous to think you couldn't have sat down and typed it. It's like a cliff hanger on your favorite TV show. "Tune in next time when Ragian reveals if he's scum or not!" *BUM BUM BUMMMMMM* After Legions post claiming you to be scum.

by Ragian on Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:01 am

2 hours later (Nearly)

by Ragian on Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:56 am

And it doesn't make sense to argue with Legion, who is confirmed town by non other then Mitch. Once again, the only real lead we've had in this game thus far.

3) Your backing down

Wouldn't there be a notification if you were jailed regardless of action taken?

Agree with Samlen. A lot of mods won't notify you.

Well with that, there's nothing more to go on. I still would like to hear from Fircoal or even Skoffin at this point, whom I'm guessing are lurking about.

Unvote Ragian

Despite the fact that there was no sense arguing with Legion, you retract your vote. Your vote was opportunist thinking that I was going down for sure, and now that you see that I'm not instantly lynched, you're getting cold feet.

That suffices for me: Vote DDS

I know that I said that I wouldn't make any cases before I was asked, but this is going nowhere, and I feel there's enough meat on this baby.

I would have voted for you regardless of it being opportunistic or not after Legion made his claim. I would be suspicious of Legion if Mitch hadn't made his claim. Chances are, if Legion is wrong, he may be our next best bet for the noose. Let's also not forget that I unvoted Mitch after his claim as well.
Anyways.

I retracted my vote because of the following.
The BD argument. It makes sense, but no one has yet to claim, and I would still vote you back up being that you're our best case here. Thanks to Legion.
Maybe I'm just playing an entirely different game, where I should just see how things play out, instead of just hoping for reveals and eliminating on who's who. Different game...Again.

Jailor claim. As Samlen has said, it's a risky claim, easy to prove wrong, and the reason why I asked if there was a notification if you were jailed, is because I have those notifications for being jailed. Since Samlen can't prove you're jailor or not, and I most certainly can't, I felt no other choice than to retract my vote for the time being until either the day draws to an end, or new evidence rears itself.

In other words, I'm playing to my "meta."

I'm sure someone will eventually ask, but I play Mafia on SCII (Star Craft II). It's a custom map, lot of fun.

[Skoffin]

Sorry but I just do not buy that mafia, especially Ragian, chose Mitch of all people to try to night kill. Mitch is a great asset for scum team, realistically, and it just doesn't make any sort of sense as a strategy;

Pretty sure I didn't misunderstand.

Mitch: Well let's face it, mitch is a bad player. But is he this bad of a player? Maybe

why would scum have targeted mitch for a kill last night, especially if Ragian was the scum in question? Totally doesn't seem his MO.

Pretty sure it's not a slip, it's just mitch being mitch. You can say a lot of things about mitch, but being that bad at mafia really isn't one of them.

It made sense to jump on Mitch.

I only quoted this one to show that while I did start a wagon on Mitch, I clearly wasn't the only one that thought it made sense at the time.

So, no, I didn't misinterpret, nor did I change the argument at all. Of course mafia (3rd Party?) killed Mitch after he was revealed to be cop. No brainer there.
You're the one attempting to change your own argument to fit your claim. I'm merely pointing out that several people, yourself included, had echoed that it made 0 sense for anyone to try and kill Mitch BEFORE his role claim.

I honestly do not understand what you are trying to say.
I've never once changed what my argument is. My argument was: I do not think scum would target mitch N1 for a kill; I don't think anyone would target mitch for a kill unless strictly necessary.Yes, I think it makes zero sense for any scum to target mitch prior to learning he was a cop. This is what I stated, this is what you stated I have claimed, and yet you are somehow disagreeing wth me about what I have said. u wot mate?
The wagon on Mitch has exactly zero bearing on what I think people might do at night time. So again, I don't know what we are even arguing about here.

[DirtyDishSoap]

I had to read read your post and I'm reading something entirely different. That's my bad skoffin. I blame the my flu. Lol

[DirtyDishSoap]

I'll type that again since my phone is an utter piece of shit.

I had to re-read what your said, at the time I read something entirely differently. My bad, I should have read it more closely. I blame my flu.

I need a beer...