US Military Action in Libya?

[GreecePwns]

Like Iran?

[BigBallinStalin]

How will your morals react as you watch a country butcher itself?

How will you react when the next group of strongmen step in, shoot people, and tell everyone to shut up and get back to work?

Surely, there must be more intervention to satisfy one's lust for "righteousness."

I don't think the next group of strongmen is going to have the same type of leeway that Qaddafi had, the libyan people will just as easily rise against any future dictators, they are already armed after all.

That's a weak assumption that you're running with.

The Libyan people didn't rise easily against Gaddafi. It required 1000+ NATO sorties, hundreds of millions of imported armaments, and direct ground support with NATO special forces and intel agents.

But let's sit back, and watch the consequences of moral outcries from warped feelings of righteousness.

[General_Tao]

NATO only tipped the balance of power on the ground, Qaddafi couldn't have been overthrown without a large armed revolutionary movement on the ground. You had to have both of these elements because a poorly supplied and trained large revolutionary movement wouldn't have been able to overcome the regime's military superiority, you can't fight tanks and Migs in the desert with AK47s regardless of your numbers.


As to Greecepns' point above, Iran's current government, warts and all is leagues ahead of the Qaddafi dictatorship. Their theocracy actually has a a good measure of popular support and their president probably is the poorest ruler in the Middle East, there aren't many presidents driving 30-yr old sedans in the region... Compare with the Qaddafi family's $100 billion + fortune.

This being said, if Iran's government becomes much more unpopular at home, they will also face regime change. So far their green revolution hasn't spread much outside of the middle class in Teheran but that could change in the future.

[BigBallinStalin]

NATO only tipped the balance of power on the ground, Qaddafi couldn't have been overthrown without a large armed revolutionary movement on the ground. You had to have both of these elements because a poorly supplied and trained large revolutionary movement wouldn't have been able to overcome the regime's military superiority, you can't fight tanks and Migs in the desert with AK47s regardless of your numbers.

I'm not arguing this.

You said that Libya could overthrow any future dictator; "they're already armed after all." I highly doubt it given that they had immense trouble in doing it by themselves, and since the rebels aren't one homogenous, well-trained movement, it's easier for one well-organized group to command and conquer (much like Iran's religious sect after the 1979 revolution).


What's missing from your analysis is the effect of "network externalities," which means that something increases in value as other people use/do it. The movement gained momentum as NATO lent its support and the rebels were perceived to make more progress. NATO's involvement wasn't a mere tip; it started a colossal avalanche.

So, if another group rises up, they'll need NATO support, but the problem is who should really be bombed? Which rebel group should be trusted? Which are genuine about movements toward democracy and which ones aren't? It's going to be a quagmire of shit in the upcoming years.

As to Greecepns' point above, Iran's current government, warts and all is leagues ahead of the Qaddafi dictatorship. Their theocracy actually has a a good measure of popular support and their president probably is the poorest ruler in the Middle East, there aren't many presidents driving 30-yr old sedans in the region... Compare with the Qaddafi family's $100 billion + fortune.

This being said, if Iran's government becomes much more unpopular at home, they will also face regime change. So far their green revolution hasn't spread much outside of the middle class in Teheran but that could change in the future.

For me, in regards to Libya, the point is that there was a revolution among many different groups who were united because they hated the king. The theocrats won because they were better organized--not because they enjoyed popular support which is difficult to estimate. Had Saddam not invaded, the theocrats would have had significant difficulty in uniting the nation to support the new theocracy. The war enabled them to tap into nationalist sentiments to solidify their position as the "legitimate" rulers

[Qwert]

bigbalin you speak very smart. now we only can sit back,and watch of begining of real Civil war in libya,because NTC will now be new target for rebels around libya,and to be honest,i will not be supprised if rebels start kill one by one,member of NTC ,because they also been member of quadafy former power, so like General Younis, they will be capture and killed,ofcourse withouth trial(who need these pointless process in courth).
Tomorow you will watch,how members of council runing out of country to find safe place in algeria or Egypt.

[saxitoxin]

General Tao is so brainwashed I can't even read his posts, just snippets of furious hate he spouts out here and there.

• Tao is person in the audience #129 in this scene - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4zYlOU7Fpk - hearing from the state/corporate media about NATO's latest enemy that the war machine needs to mobilize against; dutifully absorbing the Parade of Horribles that's feted in front of him and reacting with his visceral, brainwashed rage. The mantle of Emanuel Goldstein has been stripped from Col. Qaddafi and now handed to President Assad.

However, as for Bosnia - if Serbia attacked Bosnia then Britain attacked Northern Ireland. Why can NATO states deploy the most debilitating violence imaginable to maintain their territorial continuity but, if non-NATO states attempt to do the same, they are "war criminals" interfering with rights of self-determination? There is no rule of law in the world. There is a global pirate ship captained by Uncle Sam and crewed by his slavish and dutiful crew members, John Bull, Dudley Doright and Marianne. The captain of the ship makes up the laws and applies them to everyone but himself. He has given Al-Qaeda its own state (after killing thousands to take one away from them in Afghanistan).

But things are about to change.

"The law of society is an eternal human heritage that is not the possession of the living only."
- Col. Muammar Qaddafi, Chairman of the Revolutionary Command Council of Libya, President of the African Union, Leader of the Libyan Resistance

[saxitoxin]

The UN Security Council mandate imposing a no-fly zone did not authorise NATO to carry out airstrikes in Libya.

[saxitoxin]

A 1956 cartoon from Eulenspiegel, a popular satirical/political commentary magazine in the German Democratic Republic, highlighting the British puppet government's servile, sycophantic, client-state obedience to the U.S.

Caption reads: "Oh, John Bull - let me pour you the first glass as I am very polite!" (a bottle of oil)

[General_Tao]

Does the guy in the striped pants know that you could actually die from ingesting oil by the bottle? Probably didn't get what the label said.

[saxitoxin]

Another favourite from the DDR's Eulenspiegel (in note that this week is the anniversary of the uprising of the noble Kikuyu nation (Mau Mau) against the British savages in Kenya) -

in the caption the Mau Mau commander says to the evil p*m officer: "We are giving you your Bibles back, now please give us our land back."

[saxitoxin]

I weren't currently on a No-Fly list (again ) I would catch a plane to New York to attend this rally by Malcolm X's December 12th Movement. Encouraging anyone in the city to make it over there.

[General_Tao]

US, french British and Italian imperialism? What about Canada, we flew 10% of the sorties, no fair!

Nice east german picture there Saxi, but nowhere near as cool as the Vietnamese propaganda posters, those were the best. Did you ever check out the DDR sci fi flicks from the 1960s/70s? Quality stuff. Star Treck (the original TV series) actually ripped off a lot of ideas from an early one called Silent Star, like the multicultural spaceship crew.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc3mFRKSeEY

[saxitoxin]

US, french British and Italian imperialism? What about Canada, we flew 10% of the sorties, no fair!

I doubt there's enough room on the poster to list every little, nothing country that stumbled up to the counter - Norway, Canada, Liechtenstein, San Marino, Andorra, etc.

Also, I find it funny - Canada media are reporting they "flew 10% of the sorties", as are Norwegian media, as are Qatari media ... when you add them all-up, this gaggle of tiny little countries flew 120% of the sorties. LOL, NATO propaganda has become so comical it's unreal. Part of the general dumbing-down of westerners; they'll accept more silliness these days so it doesn't have to be as believable.

Did you ever check out the DDR sci fi flicks from the 1960s/70s? Quality stuff. Star Treck (the original TV series) actually ripped off a lot of ideas from an early one called Silent Star, like the multicultural spaceship crew.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc3mFRKSeEY

IIRC I was in my third year at Humboldt when Spaceship Venus came out and too busy getting laid by a bunch of progressive Cuban girls with limited inhibitions to be watching sci-fi movies, so I regret I saw it not.

[Ray Rider]

Well, it's good to hear that one more genocidal tyrant from the loony bin has been put to rest. However I still hold to my position from the beginning:

Yes, I mean who is the West defending anyway? For all we know we're defending a future second Islamic theocracy such as Iran, which could end up being just as bad or worse than Gadaffi's regime. However if the rebels are seriously pushing for more freedom for all and representation in government, then great! Canada, France, and the UK are doing the right thing (the US is overextending itself and shouldn't be there in either case).

And Saxi, you're looking awfully silly trying to stand up for a despot who has blood on his hands from his wars with Chad, Sudan, Egypt, Liberia, Sierra Leone, and even the rape, torture, and murder of citizens from his own country.

[saxitoxin]

And Saxi, you're looking awfully silly trying to stand up for [INSERT NATO PRESS RELEASE HERE]

Oh dear me, the neo-cons don't agree with my opposition to the "Kill all the Arabs!" programme. What ever shall I do?

Anywho, President Medvedev's envoy to NATO, Dada Rogozin, has been on fire, rockin' his Twitter account recently. Russia is only hope Europe has left for redemption. Russia must be permitted to liberate Europe into a million pieces. Liberate the shit out of Europe. Liberate Europe into the dirt.




SLEEEEEEEPYHEAD!!!!!!!!

[saxitoxin]

I hand it, at least, to the Zionists that they tell the truth.

DEBKA reports on how the assassination of Col. Qaddafi happened, outside the bluster of CNN and CBC, dutifully regurgitating their NATO press releases of the official story:

• 1 - U.S. spies located Col. Qaddafi,
  
  2 - U.S. Navy SEAL commandos heli-dropped on location and captured Col. Qaddafi,
  
  3 - U.S. Navy SEAL commandos shot Col. Qaddafi in both legs so they could turn him over to the Al'Qaeda forces without worrying about him escaping (since the latter seem not to be able to hold onto any prisoner longer than 20 minutes, based on their comical announcements earlier in the conflict when they captured Saif, then lost him, then caught him, then lost him)
  
  4 - They then handed him over to a tribe that is a centuries-old enemy of Col. Qaddafi's tribe, who then proceeded to murder him.

Step 4 was important from a PsyOps perspective (that is, Libyans conduct the murder, instead of Americans - even though they were the ones who had him) so people like Tao would scream it loud and proud that this was a great victory for the Libyan people, an organic uprising, blah blah blah ...

http://www.debka.com/article/21400/

[General_Tao]

Interesting find saxi, but even if that were true, it was only a matter of time before Qaddafi was captured by the rebels even without foreign help as they were closing in on him.

AFA that Russian envoy is concerned, NATO's intervention in Libya was totally benign compared to what Russia has been doing in Chechnya. And of course in Libya most of the people wanted Qaddafi gone.

[Qwert]

lol checnya are Russian territory, and libya are not Nato territory. I belive that these is last time when Russia and China will give approve on UN resolution for bombarding any country in world.

[General_Tao]

Chechnya is part of the Russian empire, not part of Russia. Most Chechens want to secede from Russia but they have been violently repressed by the colonial power that occupies them. China is also a colonial empire of sorts, occupying Tibet and the Uyghur area of Xinjiang, so their moral capital in this case is zero.

[Qwert]

Wow you open mine eyes-Russia and China are colonial empires. Good that UK,France,Italy and USA never have colonial thought,and never violently repressed any other country in human history.
General Tao deserve big aplause for solve all these and open eye to all people who think opposite.

[saxitoxin]

Wow you open mine eyes-Russia and China are colonial empires. Good that UK,France,Italy and USA never have colonial thought,and never violently repressed any other country in human history.
General Tao deserve big aplause for solve all these and open eye to all people who think opposite.

+1 for qwert

In Tao's little warmongering military-industrial media created world:

• Front de libération du Québec - bad guys / terrorists
  Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (Al Qaeda in the Maghreb) - good guys / peace protestors
  Irish Republican Army - bad guys / terrorists
  Kosovo Liberation Army - good guys / peace protestors
  Mohawk Warrior Society - bad guys / terrorists
  Liberation Army of Dagestan - good guys / peace protestors

SLEEEEEEEEEEPYHEAD

[General_Tao]

Wow you open mine eyes-Russia and China are colonial empires. Good that UK,France,Italy and USA never have colonial thought,and never violently repressed any other country in human history.
General Tao deserve big aplause for solve all these and open eye to all people who think opposite.

Newsflash qwert, it's 2011 and the UK France Italy don't have colonial empires. I mean if it was 1952 you'd have a point about Algeria or Indochina but to invoke imperialism for France or Italy in this millenium is beyond ridiculous.

Saxi, what russian circus is that dude from?

[Phatscotty]

Wow you open mine eyes-Russia and China are colonial empires. Good that UK,France,Italy and USA never have colonial thought,and never violently repressed any other country in human history.
General Tao deserve big aplause for solve all these and open eye to all people who think opposite.

Newsflash qwert, it's 2011 and the UK France Italy don't have colonial empires. I mean if it was 1952 you'd have a point about Algeria or Indochina but to invoke imperialism for France or Italy in this millenium is beyond ridiculous.

Saxi, what russian circus is that dude from?

It's still there, it's just much more difficult to see.

[Phatscotty]

The civilians in USA are in danger. Russia/China need to bring democracy to the USA.

1st: Put a no fly zone.

2nd: Arm the civilians.
...
3rd: Bomb all banks, schools, hospitals, airports, bridges, infrastructure etc.

4th: Bomb the civilians and blame the poor system fail.

5th: Capture, torture & kill the leader and place them in a public refrigerator for 4 days so the whole world can see his mutilated body and celebrate.

6th: Continue bombing some more, just in case."

Anonymous

[saxitoxin]

Libya is plunging into a cycle of tribal violence and retribution

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/ ... 4U20111030

Meanwhile, with the country now fully under Sharia law, the Guardian reports the Al-Qaeda flag has been raised over the Benghazi City Hall.

http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/ ... pe=article



Canada - rest assured, Libyans will remember your contribution to the impending reality of their new existence. Don't worry, though, you'll have the CBC to breathlessly tell you Canadians are loved around the world as a force of moderation and humanitarian assistance so you frail daffodils won't just wilt under the glaze of reality.