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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:22 pm
by Frigidus
Balsiefen wrote:jay_a2j wrote:Backglass wrote:
For those of you who still believe that we were all created, some simple questions. What was there before we were created? What was your magical god doing for the eternity before we were created?
Before we were created , God had created angels. Later, Lucifer rebelled, was kicked out of heaven along with 1/3 of the angels who chose to follow Lucifer. Lucifer's name was changed to Satan and the 1/3 are what we now know as demons.
A degree in Human evolution....$10,000/semester
A KJ Bible...... $15.00
Eternal life through Jesus Christ...... Priceless.
So what your saying is while evolution has better evidence, religion is better value for money?
I think he's saying you should shop around before deciding on your belief system.
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:35 pm
by heavycola
Frigidus wrote:Balsiefen wrote:jay_a2j wrote:Backglass wrote:
For those of you who still believe that we were all created, some simple questions. What was there before we were created? What was your magical god doing for the eternity before we were created?
Before we were created , God had created angels. Later, Lucifer rebelled, was kicked out of heaven along with 1/3 of the angels who chose to follow Lucifer. Lucifer's name was changed to Satan and the 1/3 are what we now know as demons.
A degree in Human evolution....$10,000/semester
A KJ Bible...... $15.00
Eternal life through Jesus Christ...... Priceless.
So what your saying is while evolution has better evidence, religion is better value for money?
I think he's saying you should shop around before deciding on your belief system.
Pascal's Wager says we should find the religion with the worst version of hell, and believe in that. Hedge your bets.
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:52 pm
by comic boy
Pint of beer,packet of cigarettes, excelent curry and a good women £20
in Thailand, with enough change for the busfare home
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:31 pm
by moo_lol
jay_a2j wrote:moo_lol wrote:Is this thread a joke? Basically 100% of scientists agree that life did in fact come from non-life. Even if you don't agree with them, you can't say that lack of evidence for theory A constitutes confirmation of hypothesis B.
Edit: This is what you sound like to me: "I can't imagine how life could have originated through natural processes, therefore I have to believe that it happened via supernatural processes. Furthermore, I will conclude (without investigation) that the specific supernatural processes that resulted in life were the actions of the God from my culture's religion." Who is this supposed to convince?
"Basically 100% of scientists agree that life did in fact come from non-life." This statement is blatantly false. Seeing a scientist stated, "Life cannot come from non-life" as I recall in 8th grade science. You have to take a HUGE leap of faith to believe Life can originate from something that is not living.
The statement is true. You may not agree that life came from non-life, but the fact that it is what most people who study the real world believe is not debatable.
Maybe you're talking about the fact that life does not spontaneously form in a vacuum, which is true (people used to think that maggots formed on and from rancid meat).
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:17 pm
by Backglass
moo_lol wrote:The statement is true. You may not agree that life came from non-life, but the fact that it is what most people who study the real world believe is not debatable.
Maybe you're talking about the fact that life does not spontaneously form in a vacuum, which is true (people used to think that maggots formed on and from rancid meat).
Surely you can't be claiming that all the worlds scientists know better than Jay's 8th Grade Science teacher? The one who he admittedly ignored due to his religious beliefs? Please! Be serious!
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:01 pm
by unriggable
jay_a2j wrote:Before we were created , God had created angels. Later, Lucifer rebelled, was kicked out of heaven along with 1/3 of the angels who chose to follow Lucifer. Lucifer's name was changed to Satan and the 1/3 are what we now know as demons.
And that doesn't take a leap of faith?
If God talks about honesty like he means it why is he planting fake evidence in the "crime scene"?
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:14 pm
by Neoteny
I want a degree in Human Evolution...
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:49 pm
by Napoleon Ier
Believing in God requires no "leap of Faith". His existance can be ontologically proved.
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:19 pm
by Frigidus
Napoleon Ier wrote:Believing in God requires no "leap of Faith". His existance can be ontologically proved.
Ontologically? I could prove he doesn't exist logically if theists cared about that sort of thing.
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:24 pm
by Napoleon Ier
Frigidus wrote:Napoleon Ier wrote:Believing in God requires no "leap of Faith". His existance can be ontologically proved.
Ontologically? I could prove he doesn't exist logically if theists cared about that sort of thing.
Then I'd rebutt your proofs, you'd come up with counter-rebutalls, and we'd have a debate
...instead of disparaging, ill-considered remarks from slovenly fools who think their secular humanism makes them de facto intellectuals...
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:17 am
by heavycola
Napoleon Ier wrote:Believing in God requires no "leap of Faith". His existance can be ontologically proved.
You can't seriously be about to try the ontological argument?? Honestly?
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:35 am
by comic boy
Nappy
You can prove God the same way I can prove the Easter Bunny, means nothing.
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:25 am
by MeDeFe
Go ahead Nappy, I'm very much looking forward to it. Give it to me! That sexy ontological argument!
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:42 am
by WidowMakers
Backglass wrote:jay_a2j wrote:This statement is blatantly false. Seeing a scientist stated, "Life cannot come from non-life" as I recall in 8th grade science. You have to take a HUGE leap of faith to believe Life can originate from something that is not living.
C'mon guys, don't you know that Jay bases his entire life off Sunday School and an 8th grade science class?
Life has always been here...it didn't have to "start somewhere" or "come from nothing".
Our universe is infinite. It doesn't need a creator because it has always been here and always will be.For those of you who still believe that we were all created, some simple questions.
What was there before we were created? What was your magical god doing for the eternity before we were created? No "mysterious ways" cop outs please.
Regardless of whether you beleive in creation or evolution you can't beleive teh universe is infinitely long (always been).
If the universe has always been that makes it infinitely long. If that is the case all of the usable heat energy of the universe would have already been used up because:
1) The is only a finite amount
2) Matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed.
Once all of teh usable heat energy is used up the universe is in a dead heat. Meaning everything has reached a thermodynamic equilibrium.
-There was nothing there as far as our 4 dimensions (space and time as we know it)
-Whatever he wants. Just because we can't or don't understand it does not make it impossible or non-existent.
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:56 am
by WidowMakers
Creation of the World and Global Flood
And here is an interesting passage from 2 Peter 3:3-6
3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.
4 They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."
5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water.
6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.
Verse 5 speaks about how, by God's word, the heavens and earth were created. There is no concept or indication that this is a metaphor and did not really happen.
Verse 6 tells of the flood in past tense and not as a myth or legend but an actual event that happened top the earth.
Mans Unbelief in GodAnd here in Romans 1:19-25 we read19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
The Bible pretty much says that God is evident in all people and it is people who choose to ignore Him and that they would rather believe their own thoughts and follow their desires before God's.
WM
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:32 am
by Snorri1234
heavycola wrote:Napoleon Ier wrote:Believing in God requires no "leap of Faith". His existance can be ontologically proved.
You can't seriously be about to try the ontological argument?? Honestly?
Oh man I hope so.
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:04 am
by Symmetry
WidowMakers: I'm really very keen on hearing why you think that the translation you picked from Romans is correct.
Are the people of the world who are not Christian, really fools professing to be wise?
Did entire countries and empires really choose, en masse, in spite of the fact that it was obvious to them from the dawn of time, in spite of the fact that God's invisibility was clearly visible, really choose to ignore it to a man?
Was it really the case that only a few people born into a group chosen by God would ever be able to understand how obvious God was to those not chosen?
Are you honestly claiming that people in the stone age, in early Jewish societies, in China in the 10th century, in Japan in the modern day, indeed, anywhere where nobody or almost nobody could possibly have encountered Christianity or where Christianity is not a major religion... are you honestly claiming that these people were deliberately deceiving themselves that God didn't and doesn't exist?
Whatever your reasons are for using these quotes, I seriously think you need to justify the claims for massive cultural stupidity, corruption, deception, self-deception, lust, dishonour, and darkness that you have decided can be made against such a huge section of the human race.
What exactly did you mean, WidowMakers?
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:12 am
by comic boy
WM
Im sorry mate but what is the point of quoting Biblical tracts,we are simply going to dismiss them as fiction. Its interesting that the Dead Sea Scrolls, which nobody is denying are authentic, do not mention Jesus once in all their entirety. This is despite being written by a deeply religious sect who lived in the same region at the same time, do you not think the coming of the Messiah might have been worth a paragraph or two ? Now this does not prove anything in itself but these documents are original and have not been subject to potential correction and editing, you certainly cant say thats the case with the New Testament. Nobody without a vested interest would therefore say the Bible is definitive and yet you quote it as proof !
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:26 am
by Guiscard
WidowMakers wrote:-There was nothing there as far as our 4 dimensions (space and time as we know it)
-Whatever he wants. Just because we can't or don't understand it does not make it impossible or non-existent.
Can you explain to me how that differs in any way whatsoever other than the use of a personal pronoun from Big Bang theory?
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:43 am
by Balsiefen
Symmetry wrote:WidowMakers: I'm really very keen on hearing why you think that the translation you picked from Romans is correct.
Are the people of the world who are not Christian, really fools professing to be wise?
Did entire countries and empires really choose, en masse, in spite of the fact that it was obvious to them from the dawn of time, in spite of the fact that God's invisibility was clearly visible, really choose to ignore it to a man?
Was it really the case that only a few people born into a group chosen by God would ever be able to understand how obvious God was to those not chosen?
Are you honestly claiming that people in the stone age, in early Jewish societies, in China in the 10th century, in Japan in the modern day, indeed, anywhere where nobody or almost nobody could possibly have encountered Christianity or where Christianity is not a major religion... are you honestly claiming that these people were deliberately deceiving themselves that God didn't and doesn't exist?
Whatever your reasons are for using these quotes, I seriously think you need to justify the claims for massive cultural stupidity, corruption, deception, self-deception, lust, dishonour, and darkness that you have decided can be made against such a huge section of the human race.
What exactly did you mean, WidowMakers?
QFT
I've always thaught, if current scientific thery does prove to be wrong and religion is correct-Why should it be Christianity? Why not Hinduism or Arianism or a tiny and unknown religion which belonged to a small tribe by the amazon who were unfortunatly wiped out by their neighbors a thousand years ago. What gives any of these less credability than christianity?
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:45 am
by JoeCorden
WidowMakers wrote:Regardless of whether you beleive in creation or evolution you can't beleive teh universe is infinitely long (always been).
If the universe has always been that makes it infinitely long. If that is the case all of the usable heat energy of the universe would have already been used up because:
1) The is only a finite amount
2) Matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed.
Once all of teh usable heat energy is used up the universe is in a dead heat. Meaning everything has reached a thermodynamic equilibrium.
-There was nothing there as far as our 4 dimensions (space and time as we know it)-Whatever he wants. Just because we can't or don't understand it does not make it impossible or non-existent.
Surely if matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed they must be eternal?
Doesn't this then mean that the universe (or parts of it) are also eternal?
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:46 am
by Backglass
Napoleon Ier wrote:.instead of disparaging, ill-considered remarks from slovenly fools who think their secular humanism makes them de facto intellectuals...
Here is the really funny thing. Your silly insults have no effect because they are all coming from a grown man who admittedly worships fairy tales, fears superstitions and believes in ghosts, goblins & the boogieman.
Please...continue to tell us how un-intelligent we all are.
(BTW: Be sure to turn on your night-light tonight...demons lurk in the dark you know!
)
JoeCorden wrote:Doesn't this then mean that the universe (or parts of it) are also eternal?
Thats my take on it. No need for a magical creator. The universe has always been here. The Human mind has a hard time dealing with infinity and eternity.
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:34 pm
by Dancing Mustard
Napoleon Ier wrote:Then I'd pretend I'd rebutted your proofs, you'd come up with pre-emptive counter-rebutalls, and you'd try to have a debate
...I wouldn't participate though, instead I'd make disparaging, ill-considered remarks and act like a slovenly fool who thinks his pompous self-aggrandizing pig-headedness makes him a de facto intellectual...
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:59 pm
by unriggable
WidowMakers wrote:-There was nothing there as far as our 4 dimensions (space and time as we know it)
-Whatever he wants. Just because we can't or don't understand it does not make it impossible or non-existent.
Mathematically there are eleven dimensions. They were infinitely condensed pre - Big Bang.
Same attitude you have with the Big Bang.
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:29 pm
by Napoleon Ier
heavycola wrote:Napoleon Ier wrote:Believing in God requires no "leap of Faith". His existance can be ontologically proved.
You can't seriously be about to try the ontological argument?? Honestly?
Ontologically, as in using a priori reason.