Lunar War [GP, G, X] files on p.1

[MarshalNey]

I really hate putting out things like this after so much hard work... but I like version 16 better, or even version 17.

The only thing that this version has over the previous version is clarity- which is important, but I had no problems reading the previous version, especially with the white rimming on the seas. Otherwise:

1) it looks way too flat. Like a 2D circle instead of a sphere. The He3 mines are improved in that they now look like they're bored into the surface.... but ironically, it's that very effect that makes the moon's surface lose its 3D look. You see, before the He3 mines and normal territories looked like 2D map symbols superimposed on a a 3D moon. Now that the symbols are 3D-ish, they need to warp with the surface of the moon in order to keep the moon's 3D look. The further towards the edges of the sphere, the smaller and more 'slanted' the symbols should be.

For instance, Gassendi should be noticeably smaller than Purbach, and have a marked tilt. Instead, it appears to be on the exact same plane in relation to the viewer.

2) The flags are rippling now, which seems to say "windy"- not something I associate with the Moon.

3) I lose all sense of shininess, it looks like a worthless hunk of rock now. It's hard to imagine people (EDIT: 'nations', not meaning 'players' here) fighting over this grayish lump. (EDIT: I'm really just asking for more of a "mineral-laden" look here, something to give me that sense of "there's gold in them hills!" that I got from v16)

4) The missile bases are just fancy rectangles now. Very abstract and non-threatening.


On the other hand, I do like that:
1) the rockets look very cool and are now all in one place.

2) the legend seems to have an improved look and is more clear (although the bonus area on the righthand side looks squished now)

3) the seas have a very distinct symbol now, that works

4) overall the map is very uncluttered-looking

5) you've gotten rid of the whole 'connector tubes' jargon, and the thinner line goes a long way to improving the clarity without detracting from the aesthetics

I'd trying keeping your previous moon background and seeing how it looks with the thinner connecting lines, and adding in some perspective to the symbols or losing their 3D-ness.

[natty dread]

Thanks for the criticism but I will not be going back to the previous version, sorry. In the foundry we have a saying "function trumps form" (which is actually even in the Foundry guidelines). I am willing to do improvements on the current graphics, but that will have to wait until the graphics workshop.

This is a map, not a realistic 3d representation of the moon. The territories such as the mines should not be thought as 3d objects, but as icons on a map.

I do try to incorporate some 3d aspect into the map, but not in such a way that it will interfere with clarity.

Also for gameplay clarity purposes all icons should be uniform. Making the mines "tilt" towards the edges would scrap this uniformity, which would not be a good thing.

[natty dread]

Anywhoooo, here's the update with the gameplay tweaks. I also added a connection between Tycho and IN1... if it's a bad decision I can always remove it, but it seemed to me RU2 had the advantage of a shorter route to Purbach mine.

Click image to enlarge.

And Marshal, I'll be happy to debate graphical issues with you as soon as we get to the next forum


ps. oops, noticed a bit of a f*ck-up there... mare frigoris has somehow been labeled mare imbrium

[Industrial Helix]

Holy crap... that is a major major graphics improvement! I love it, the map has much more clarity and is far more easier to read now.

Excellent work Natty!

However, I got a few nitpicks...

About the waves on the flags of the moon... there's no wind on the moon.

Keep up the good work!

[natty dread]

Glad you like it IH. My 12 hours of work didn't go all to waste then...

As for wind... Yes I'm aware of this, but the flags would look kinda boring without the wave effect. Anyway they're not supposed to be realistic representations, they're more like icons on a map.

What's next, someone complaining that the flags are as big as the craters?

Still... I'll be glad to address any graphical concerns after we get the gameplay stamp. So let's hear more on the gameplay so we can get this moving

[ender516]

With no wind on the moon, the flags would simply droop down the pole without some support. The Apollo flags had a crossbar to hold the flag out. Who's to say that the bar has to be straight?

[natty dread]

Curved flagpole crossbars are all the rage in 2110

Fixed frigoris label & adjusted some other stuff.

Click image to enlarge.

[Teflon Kris]

Nice update - all much clearer now which was needed.

Plus, you have addressed the clustered landing points. I'll have another check through though.



Here are my connection sketches from the previous version (hence they are obsolete lol).

Hold on for up-to-date sketches / feedback.

Gameplay Connection Sketch Diagrams

This shows the problem with lots of landing points with only 2 seas to get to the main map:


Suggested changes (circled regions = consider moving):

[natty dread]

Well, I look forward to seeing your updated sketches. However, you also need to consider the geography of the moon, which is represented fairly accurately at the moment... so, for example, moving craters to completely different locations will not be feasible... The connections made by connecting lines can be changed though.

[Teflon Kris]

Are there still connections between Cassini & Mare Serenitatis and Pinius & Mare Tranquilitatis and Sinus Medii and Eral.?

My concern at the monent is the proximity of 3 HEs around S.O.Pcellarum. Maybe one of them (Kepler) should be more in the north (e.g. peninsula between Imbrum and Procellarum). Also, I still think Purbach is a as much an obstruction as useful - it would be handy if players could avoid it (or it were elsewhere).

I'm pretty happy the moves you have made to the landing points have resolved the southern congestion issue. Maybe worth a second opinion on this. The unused crater to the right of Sinus Medii could be a useful connecting crater if needed (or maybe a connection to a HE from Mare Vaporum). Gassendi - Magnus is another potential connection, along with Stevinus - M.Spumansis - M.Crisium.

[natty dread]

Are there still connections between Cassini & Mare Serenitatis and Pinius & Mare Tranquilitatis and Sinus Medii and Eral.?

Cassini connects North Imbrium to Serenitatis. Plinius connects to all 3: Serenitatis, Tranquilitatis and Vaporum. Eralos. connects Medii to South Imbrium.

Are these hard to see? I'll have to think of some solution for these parts.

My concern at the monent is the proximity of 3 HEs around S.O.Pcellarum. Maybe one of them (Kepler) should be more in the north-east area. Also, I still think Purbach is a as much an obstruction as useful - it would be handy if players could avoid it (or it were elsewhere).

If Kepler is made into a regular crater, it will have no purpose at all since it doesn't connect anywhere else, thus it will just be a useless territory. Also I wouldn't like removing Kepler altogether, because it is a very large crater - a very distinct feature of the moon geography, thus it deserves to be on the map, I think.

As for Purbach, It offers a potential mine for India and Russia. Now that the mines are an objective as well as giving a bonus, I don't think players will see them as obstruction. However... a connection between Tycho and Humorum or Magnus and Humorum might be feasible perhaps?

Anyway, Isaiah can decide how to address these concerns, as he has designed most of the gameplay (apart from some minor suggestions I've offered here and there). I just want the gameplay to get done soon so I can get really working on those graphics...

[isaiah40]

I'll take a look at these a little closer later when I have a little time, right now it's time to hit the hay for me!

[Teflon Kris]

Are there still connections between Cassini & Mare Serenitatis and Pinius & Mare Tranquilitatis and Sinus Medii and Eral.?

Cassini connects North Imbrium to Serenitatis. Plinius connects to all 3: Serenitatis, Tranquilitatis and Vaporum. Eralos. connects Medii to South Imbrium.

Are these hard to see? I'll have to think of some solution for these parts.

Thanks, this is what I thought. Players should get the connections now I think - if anyone disagrees it is something that can be brought up at a later stage (e.g. FF), so not worth worrying about now mate.

My concern at the monent is the proximity of 3 HEs around S.O.Pcellarum. Maybe one of them (Kepler) should be more in the north-east area. Also, I still think Purbach is a as much an obstruction as useful - it would be handy if players could avoid it (or it were elsewhere).

If Kepler is made into a regular crater, it will have no purpose at all since it doesn't connect anywhere else, thus it will just be a useless territory. Also I wouldn't like removing Kepler altogether, because it is a very large crater - a very distinct feature of the moon geography, thus it deserves to be on the map, I think.

As for Purbach, It offers a potential mine for India and Russia. Now that the mines are an objective as well as giving a bonus, I don't think players will see them as obstruction. However... a connection between Tycho and Humorum or Magnus and Humorum might be feasible perhaps?

With 3 HEs in that Western area US1 and JP1 would have good access to the objective compared to other landing sites. I can see your point about making Kepler a useful region but maybe one of the 3 HEs should be a Missile Base or something (and perhaps add an HE in the relative North-East for balance? Making one of them a missile base will add extra balance for this feature (currently 6 of 8 countries have fairly close access).

I recommend adding extra connection routes (especially so players in the south can choose to avoid Purbach if they wish). With big neutrals and lots of landing points meaning encountering opponents will be common, getting around this map is never going to be easy. The SW is a potential area for an extra connection - plus Mare Vaporum and that unused crater linking to the 3 landing points in the central south.

This is less important than getting the HE balance right though (and perhaps the Missile Base balance).

Once these issues are looked at we can then evaluate the relative strengths of different countries and their landing points and swap round if required - best to do this last though.

Thanks for the quick responses Moon Team, and well done again on the latest update, its looking very good and very interesting gameplay, hopefully the next stage will come soon.

[isaiah40]

Okay here's what I came up with:

1) Move the Gassendi He3 mine over to Stevinus
2) Add Humorum Missile Base between Mare Humorum and Magnus
3) Swap IN1 with RU2 and
4) Move JP2 in that area between those 3 mares and connect it to all three (Nectarus, Tranqu.,and Fecun.)

This will I believe will:
1) make it a little easier for players to traverse the southern frontier easier,
2) Allow India closer access to a missile base
3) Give the Russian player access to the west side of the moon,
4) Make the He3 mine objective a little harder to achieve,
5) Give Japan access to a missile base

If I'm right, now all countries will have equal access to all missile bases and mines (unless I missed something). How do you think this will work?

[natty dread]

Ok I think I figured out what the crater is that is east of medii and south of vaporum...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyginus_%28crater%29

So we could make Purbach a regular crater and make Hyginus a mine. Either way it would be good to include the Hyginus crater on the map...

Also, Eralosthenes is actually spelled Eratosthenes... gotta remember to fix that.


Also, Gassendi should be called Mersenius.

[natty dread]

Ok, actuallu the crater marked as Gassendi should be Byrgius. I found a great map, I wish we'd had this from the start: http://www.wwu.edu/depts/skywise/moon/moonmap_lg.jpg

I'll check if we have any other misnamed craters...

The crater east of Medii should be Godin, according to this.

[natty dread]

Okay here's what I came up with:

1) Move the Gassendi He3 mine over to Stevinus
2) Add Humorum Missile Base between Mare Humorum and Magnus
3) Swap IN1 with RU2 and
4) Move JP2 in that area between those 3 mares and connect it to all three (Nectarus, Tranqu.,and Fecun.)

This will I believe will:
1) make it a little easier for players to traverse the southern frontier easier,
2) Allow India closer access to a missile base
3) Give the Russian player access to the west side of the moon,
4) Make the He3 mine objective a little harder to achieve,
5) Give Japan access to a missile base

If I'm right, now all countries will have equal access to all missile bases and mines (unless I missed something). How do you think this will work?

Shit, I only now noticed your post Isaiah... I was wondering when you're going to post them and came to the thread and saw you already did... duh

Ok, so... #1 and #2 sounds good... but I'd suggest connecting the Humorum base also to Tycho. Both of the other bases are also connected to 3 territories, so... It makes sense this one should also be. #3 sounds good too.

But #4... This would connect JP2 and US2 to the same mare. I don't think it's good to connect several landing sites to the same mare (or any other territory). Is this really necessary anyway, since if Humorum base will be added and it connects to Humorum then JP1 will already have access to a missile base?

So I'd suggest doing #1-#3, but leaving JP2 where it is.

Also, for the Humorum base... There's a huge crater next to Tycho and Magnus called Longomontanus (I think we had this crater in the map previously) which would make for a good place for the base, and a good name too, we'd call it Longomontanus base.

Similarly... Nectaris base could be called Fracastorius base, as there is this another huge crater exactly at the location of the base, called Fracastorius. I think since Roris base is named by the Sinus that is no longer featured in the map, I thought it'd be nice to name the other bases with features that aren't already in the map - this way we get more of the moon features featured and thus more authenticity for the map.

How does this sound?

[ender516]

Your naming plan is good. Using more distinct names (rather than repeating them) is a definite plus: why risk player confusion between Mare Humorum and Humorum Missile Base?

[Teflon Kris]

I'm looking forward to seeing these changes guys - good work

[isaiah40]

Looking at it again natty, I will say I agree with you on all accounts.

[natty dread]

Ok then! In that case I will get to work

[natty dread]

Here is the update. I hope I did everything correctly, if I forgot anything just let me know...

This is v.19 btw.

Click image to enlarge.

[isaiah40]

I forgot something, Magnus needs to be put down as a 3 neutral from a 2.

[natty dread]

I thought about that too... but then again, RU1 has to go through 2 territories, with 4 troops in them... Now 2 territories with 4 troops should technically be the same as 1 territory with 5 troops: you need to leave 1 troop behind for each territory... so even if you lose 1 less troop it will be offset by having to leave behind 1 more troop...

Well, it's not a big deal, 1 troop here or there... I can change it either way, I think it'll be fine whether it's 2 or 3.

One thing though... US has very heavy access to mines while CH has a very weak one. How about swapping US1 with CH1?

[isaiah40]

Swap them.