Civilization Mafia - Town Victory!

[Skittles!]

Interesting development here. I don't think it's worth town's vote on a survivor on day 1, as Skoffin said with the amount of people in this game it will (hopefully) be numerous days and nights long. So anyone who is going after benga right now has a FOS on them from me because I just don't think he is the best candidate for lynching.

I understand where Wing is coming from and can understand his vote. I don't think he's being (as) hostile but he is being cryptic.

As for Fircoal.. interesting that you are sitting so much on the fence and haven't in your long essays stated that you are town specifically. I'm not asking for reveal of your role but you are juggling a fine line between the essence of town and scum.

[Samlen]

There's no reason to actively keep survivors alive, but there is absolutely no reason to actively target survivors over scum. The only valid reason to vote Benga is if we believe he is scum, any 'he may just be a survivor' is wasting towns time and an easy excuse for scum to make for lynching non-scum. Survivors are high value for scum members, which leads into the stuff fircoal posted[/color]

A claimed survivor is only a liability at this point. The only thing a survivor can do for the town is take a hit from the mafia, which since he has claimed survivor, the mafia will not target them. He is now simply a ticking time bomb waiting to go off for whenever we hit mylo, at which point we loose instead of having another chance. It is absolutely better to lynch scum than a survivor, but if it ever gets to mylo, he is just as bad as scum, and we don't have any solid info on scum right now. Or, he is lying and is scum that we should lynch anyways.

Interesting development here. I don't think it's worth town's vote on a survivor on day 1, as Skoffin said with the amount of people in this game it will (hopefully) be numerous days and nights long. So anyone who is going after benga right now has a FOS on them from me because I just don't think he is the best candidate for lynching.

You say it's not worth our vote on day 1 as though it'd be worth voting him later, which doesn't make sense. This is the day we have the smallest amount of info making this the day that we most likely lynch town. Having a guaranteed non-town lynch is great for day 1. And if we try to save lynching him for a later day, we might accidentally move into mylo and loose before lynching him.


Overall, the only reason to NOT lynch a survivor claim is if we either find someone more likely to be scum or if we think they are somehow town. It's day 1 and we have a timer so it's not super likely that we'll find actual scum by the deadline.

[Fircoal]

Nooope. I don't view it much like a neutral position as you do. Yes, survivor can aid scum later on, but first you are assuming that a survivor is going to do that. And besides which, with the amount of players we have, we have multiple days/nights to determine what to do with him and when. We may have a vig on our side, in which case they can take him out if need be. We'd need at least 1 night to determine if we do or do not have a vig, however. And there is a chance that someone may develop vig powers later on, in which case they can be aiming for known scum or taking out neutral third parties instead of risking hitting town.

Now as to why survivors are high value to scum; there is the obvious 'they can side with them angle', however there is also the fact that survivors do not count in the town pool and the fact that people lynching survivors if oft seen as no big deal. A scum voting/lynching a town member is risky, a scum voting/lynching a survivor is not. Scum voting for survivor claims is good for them as they are not voting their partners and no one really learns much voting a survivor as no one cares about them.
Anyway, we are arguing too much about semantics. you either believe Benga is third party - in which case you are scum for voting him. Or you believe he is scum pretending to be third party - in which case call him scum, don't make reasons as to why it's okay to vote third parties.

It's not black and white though. You're putting the picture as if we know that what benga is. But we don't actually know. My point isn't "Ok let's go vote survivors, we'll totally win that way!" My point is that unless you are sure that benga is a survivor it makes sense to try to lynch him. Personally to me his claim seems weird. I honestly don't know much about Civ be hearing that they're only in an expansion makes me doubtful of his claim. Furthermore I still am not sure if MM would put in a survivor. If I believed his claim I'd leave him alone.

I disagree that no one learns anything because there is still a lynch to analyize. There are reasons given and posts made. These all give information. You can't just ignore them.

Interesting development here. I don't think it's worth town's vote on a survivor on day 1, as Skoffin said with the amount of people in this game it will (hopefully) be numerous days and nights long. So anyone who is going after benga right now has a FOS on them from me because I just don't think he is the best candidate for lynching.

Why isn't he the best candidate for lynching? Who out there is scummy enough that you think they are a better candidate for a lynch? How sure are you that benga is a survivor?

As for Fircoal.. interesting that you are sitting so much on the fence and haven't in your long essays stated that you are town specifically. I'm not asking for reveal of your role but you are juggling a fine line between the essence of town and scum.

...wut? How am I sitting on the fence? I'm making repeated cases for why benga being a good lynch target. Like I'm not even sure where you're getting that from. Also what do you want me to do? I'm not going to reveal my role, and I have made subtle slight hints towards the information that is in the know. I'm just not sure what you're expecting from me?

[Skoffin]

Short post by me for reasons, yay!

My last post went whooosh, so I'll be blatant; based on yolololol intel and the civ games, my hypothesis is that someone may very well acquire vigilante abilities later on. So either we can wait to see if that happens (and if it doesn't and Benga is a threat, then sure we remove him prior to mylo) or we remove him now. As I believe we may be able to remove him at night later on anyway, I will again state that I only consider it justifiable to lynch him now if you do in fact believe he is scum. If you do believe he is scum then do state those reasons and leave out the "but he might be survivvooor!" kthx.

[Minister Masket]

(or being Fircoal)

HEY!!

I approve of this post.

Can we also get a prod for Flores please? I think everyone else has at least posted at some point in the last two days.

Flores I am told will be too busy to be involved much sadly, so I'll have her replaced by Night 1.

Vote Count:

dakky21 - 0
madmitch - 0
ga7 - 1 (Wing)
skoffin - 0
strike wolf - 0
Samlen - 0
TimWoodbury - 1 (HotShot)
benga - 8 (nagerous, dakky, madmitch, ga7, Fircoal, strike, Tim the Enchanter, Samlen)
Ragian - 0
nagerous - 0
Fircoal - 0
Skittles - 0
aage - 0
HotShot53 - 0
WingCmdr Ginkapo - 1 (aage)
FloresDelMal - 0

Players in BLUE are in a DoF and get +1 to lynch
Players in RED are in warfare and get a +3 to lynch
Players under BOTH are in purple and get the maximum +4 to lynch

On today (Sun) it takes 13 to Lynch!

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

If we have no better candidate then lynch the claimed survivor

Really? you guys actually belive in that? If we lynch a survivor, we learn that he is a survivor. GREAT.

What are we going to learn N1? Read your role pm, sweet piss all.

So D2, what do we do? Nothing by the looks of it.

Everyone voting Benga is taking a cowards option, spamming excuses for their lack of attempt to gather information. Shame on you.

(ps, if anyone other than Nag actually has a problem with my play, just say so. I havent got a clue why posts are being reported this game, yet nothing happened last game...)

[madmitch]

@ WCG Yes I am also wondering who is complaining about posts ? I am being punished for 1 off mine, I also agree we most likely not learn anything new from lynching Benga but what if he is lying about who he is? Do you believe him and why and why do you think ga7 is a better lynch?

[madmitch]

went and reread and agree with Wing, UNVOTE VOTE GA7

[Skittles!]

There's no reason to actively keep survivors alive, but there is absolutely no reason to actively target survivors over scum. The only valid reason to vote Benga is if we believe he is scum, any 'he may just be a survivor' is wasting towns time and an easy excuse for scum to make for lynching non-scum. Survivors are high value for scum members, which leads into the stuff fircoal posted[/color]

A claimed survivor is only a liability at this point. The only thing a survivor can do for the town is take a hit from the mafia, which since he has claimed survivor, the mafia will not target them. He is now simply a ticking time bomb waiting to go off for whenever we hit mylo, at which point we loose instead of having another chance. It is absolutely better to lynch scum than a survivor, but if it ever gets to mylo, he is just as bad as scum, and we don't have any solid info on scum right now. Or, he is lying and is scum that we should lynch anyways.

Interesting development here. I don't think it's worth town's vote on a survivor on day 1, as Skoffin said with the amount of people in this game it will (hopefully) be numerous days and nights long. So anyone who is going after benga right now has a FOS on them from me because I just don't think he is the best candidate for lynching.

You say it's not worth our vote on day 1 as though it'd be worth voting him later, which doesn't make sense. This is the day we have the smallest amount of info making this the day that we most likely lynch town. Having a guaranteed non-town lynch is great for day 1. And if we try to save lynching him for a later day, we might accidentally move into mylo and loose before lynching him.


Overall, the only reason to NOT lynch a survivor claim is if we either find someone more likely to be scum or if we think they are somehow town. It's day 1 and we have a timer so it's not super likely that we'll find actual scum by the deadline.

I don't think we will gain any new information if we lynch benga if he is a survivor. I am sure if we go over the previous pages and try and find a slip then there will be one. I don't think it's wise to lynch so early anyway, because there is always information to learn on Day 1. I am a bit iffy about the claim, but I still think we can get more info from other sources.

Nooope. I don't view it much like a neutral position as you do. Yes, survivor can aid scum later on, but first you are assuming that a survivor is going to do that. And besides which, with the amount of players we have, we have multiple days/nights to determine what to do with him and when. We may have a vig on our side, in which case they can take him out if need be. We'd need at least 1 night to determine if we do or do not have a vig, however. And there is a chance that someone may develop vig powers later on, in which case they can be aiming for known scum or taking out neutral third parties instead of risking hitting town.

Now as to why survivors are high value to scum; there is the obvious 'they can side with them angle', however there is also the fact that survivors do not count in the town pool and the fact that people lynching survivors if oft seen as no big deal. A scum voting/lynching a town member is risky, a scum voting/lynching a survivor is not. Scum voting for survivor claims is good for them as they are not voting their partners and no one really learns much voting a survivor as no one cares about them.
Anyway, we are arguing too much about semantics. you either believe Benga is third party - in which case you are scum for voting him. Or you believe he is scum pretending to be third party - in which case call him scum, don't make reasons as to why it's okay to vote third parties.

It's not black and white though. You're putting the picture as if we know that what benga is. But we don't actually know. My point isn't "Ok let's go vote survivors, we'll totally win that way!" My point is that unless you are sure that benga is a survivor it makes sense to try to lynch him. Personally to me his claim seems weird. I honestly don't know much about Civ be hearing that they're only in an expansion makes me doubtful of his claim. Furthermore I still am not sure if MM would put in a survivor. If I believed his claim I'd leave him alone.

I disagree that no one learns anything because there is still a lynch to analyize. There are reasons given and posts made. These all give information. You can't just ignore them.

If we lynch a survivor, and then lose a town, what do we actually gain? Nothing, except making it harder to lynch scum imo.

Interesting development here. I don't think it's worth town's vote on a survivor on day 1, as Skoffin said with the amount of people in this game it will (hopefully) be numerous days and nights long. So anyone who is going after benga right now has a FOS on them from me because I just don't think he is the best candidate for lynching.

Why isn't he the best candidate for lynching? Who out there is scummy enough that you think they are a better candidate for a lynch? How sure are you that benga is a survivor?

As I just stated, I don't think we should just jump the gun and vote for him straight away. He got scared, claimed survivor. Whether this is true or not remains to be seen, but on Day 1 which is the most important day, I don't think it's worth our time to vote for a survivor claim

As for Fircoal.. interesting that you are sitting so much on the fence and haven't in your long essays stated that you are town specifically. I'm not asking for reveal of your role but you are juggling a fine line between the essence of town and scum.

...wut? How am I sitting on the fence? I'm making repeated cases for why benga being a good lynch target. Like I'm not even sure where you're getting that from. Also what do you want me to do? I'm not going to reveal my role, and I have made subtle slight hints towards the information that is in the know. I'm just not sure what you're expecting from me?

After re-reading this quote

Whom does killing a 3rd party benefit D1? Town or scum? I'd think scum since town starts all over tomorrow without any real information apart from Benga's flip. It doesn't give too much intel on who is scum as I see it. I mean, what do we do tomorrow?

I don't think so. Think about it this way, what do survivors look like to scum? While scum are able to know who is scum and who isn't, they have no idea what the roles of the people who aren't scum are. Thusly to them they are going to assume that a survivor is a town member. The way they act will be affected with that in mind, not with the idea that Benga is a survivor. So in theory it should be able to tell us just as much as a town lynch since both the town and scum would be playing it the same way. However it comes with the benefit of lynching survivor instead of town. So it does come with information.

That said the thing that need to be accounted for is the missed lynch opportunity (that is the extra chance that we could have had to lynch scum). Which is a bit the main reason it's not just a net good for town. I'd probably say it's more of a toss up, a push. Scum are happy that one of their own didn't die while town are alright that their numbers are still mostly intact while they get some information.

Of course this is if the player lynched is a survivor.

The thing is Banga made it weird by claiming what he was very early on. The thing is, unless you think it's 80%+ likely that he's a survivor there's no reason not to vote for him. There isn't really much of a loss with a survivor death, while there is a great gain with a scum death. So there isn't really much risk.

Yes obviously you are pushing for the benga lynch, but you are not actually aligning yourself to town's interests imo. This idea that towns numbers will be intact after lynching benga is false, as mafia will kill a town member, and if there is a SK (like say, Gandhi) then that may put town -2. And for what? A possible survivor. You are pushing hard for benga and I'm not exactly sure why.

[dakky21]

As people said before, lynching survivor is better than mis-lynching town. If benga is a survivor at all.

Of course, lynching scum would be ideal, but no one is going to claim scum, right? (just asking)

So me thinks something will come out of this lynch, at least we will see who was on the bandwagon and whose reasons were too weak. If Benga flips scum, then we'll at least know who didn't vote him and have another point of view.

[Fircoal]

Yes obviously you are pushing for the benga lynch, but you are not actually aligning yourself to town's interests imo. This idea that towns numbers will be intact after lynching benga is false, as mafia will kill a town member, and if there is a SK (like say, Gandhi) then that may put town -2. And for what? A possible survivor. You are pushing hard for benga and I'm not exactly sure why.

But that is going to be the case regardless of who is killed unless we kill a scum. Who are you suggesting that we lynch then? Because I haven't heard any suggestions from you. While I agree with the point that Wing has on ga7, I want to listen to his defense before I jump on him. No one else comes to mind has having any significant scum tells. As I see it, benga is the scummiest person we have here. In my eyes I feel like it's town's best interests to lynch him. I can see that you disagree but in my opinion that would be the play to make so far.

But speaking of peeps, where is like half the game? Are they all scummarining or something? > >

[nagerous]

Skittles you make it seem that you are convinced that benga is telling the truth. Mafia is a game of manipulation and subterfuge - people lie! Do you not admit that his claim - survivor element aside is extremely shaky. He claimed some civilisation from a random expansion pack, and described them as a 'minor civ' what the hell is a 'minor civ'? He hasn't answered this, as others stated if he quoted city state it may seem more genuine.

Plus all the other smaller scum tells he has made - thinking I claimed doctor etc, the weirdness with the Germany soft claim and backtracking on this at the beginning I can't see any better candidate for a lynch right now.... and fircoal is right on his points he is being attacked on, if worst comes to worse and I am wrong which I do not believe I am then we lose a survivor a third party role which will not damage the town significantly and we will be able to read a lot from the lynch is any case . Either way it is the best case out there

[nagerous]

Forgot to include the questionable DOF to Dakky as another minor tell.

[benga]

Skittles you make it seem that you are convinced that benga is telling the truth. Mafia is a game of manipulation and subterfuge - people lie! Do you not admit that his claim - survivor element aside is extremely shaky. He claimed some civilisation from a random expansion pack, and described them as a 'minor civ' what the hell is a 'minor civ'? He hasn't answered this, as others stated if he quoted city state it may seem more genuine.

Plus all the other smaller scum tells he has made - thinking I claimed doctor etc, the weirdness with the Germany soft claim and backtracking on this at the beginning I can't see any better candidate for a lynch right now.... and fircoal is right on his points he is being attacked on, if worst comes to worse and I am wrong which I do not believe I am then we lose a survivor a third party role which will not damage the town significantly and we will be able to read a lot from the lynch is any case . Either way it is the best case out there

This is the role I was given, not sure what you want me to say.

[nagerous]

Skittles you make it seem that you are convinced that benga is telling the truth. Mafia is a game of manipulation and subterfuge - people lie! Do you not admit that his claim - survivor element aside is extremely shaky. He claimed some civilisation from a random expansion pack, and described them as a 'minor civ' what the hell is a 'minor civ'? He hasn't answered this, as others stated if he quoted city state it may seem more genuine.

Plus all the other smaller scum tells he has made - thinking I claimed doctor etc, the weirdness with the Germany soft claim and backtracking on this at the beginning I can't see any better candidate for a lynch right now.... and fircoal is right on his points he is being attacked on, if worst comes to worse and I am wrong which I do not believe I am then we lose a survivor a third party role which will not damage the town significantly and we will be able to read a lot from the lynch is any case . Either way it is the best case out there

This is the role I was given, not sure what you want me to say.

How about some more flavour in regards to your role ? I am thinking character etc.

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

How about some more flavour in regards to your role ? I am thinking character etc.

Character? Explain

[TimWoodbury]

hmmm character??? like wing just said nag please do explain

[Minister Masket]

Djfireside is replacing Flores

[Skittles!]

[quote="Fircoal"But that is going to be the case regardless of who is killed unless we kill a scum. Who are you suggesting that we lynch then? Because I haven't heard any suggestions from you. While I agree with the point that Wing has on ga7, I want to listen to his defense before I jump on him. No one else comes to mind has having any significant scum tells. As I see it, benga is the scummiest person we have here. In my eyes I feel like it's town's best interests to lynch him. I can see that you disagree but in my opinion that would be the play to make so far.

But speaking of peeps, where is like half the game? Are they all scummarining or something? > >[/quote]
I am suggesting that we re-read the thread and try and find other scum slips. I don't have any suggestions other than that. Yes, benga is the scummiest person here, but I am giving him the benefit of the doubt with his claim. If he is a survivor, then I think it would be a wasted opportunity for town to actually get a mafia member. If he turns out to be a scum, then folly me, I got conned. In saying this, I am absolutely down for lynching benga eventually, I just don't think going after a survivor is the best idea for town when it could put us -2 and with no real knowledge afterwards.

Yes, I would also like to hear from more people. aage, hotshot, ga7 in particular.

Skittles you make it seem that you are convinced that benga is telling the truth. Mafia is a game of manipulation and subterfuge - people lie! Do you not admit that his claim - survivor element aside is extremely shaky. He claimed some civilisation from a random expansion pack, and described them as a 'minor civ' what the hell is a 'minor civ'? He hasn't answered this, as others stated if he quoted city state it may seem more genuine.

Plus all the other smaller scum tells he has made - thinking I claimed doctor etc, the weirdness with the Germany soft claim and backtracking on this at the beginning I can't see any better candidate for a lynch right now.... and fircoal is right on his points he is being attacked on, if worst comes to worse and I am wrong which I do not believe I am then we lose a survivor a third party role which will not damage the town significantly and we will be able to read a lot from the lynch is any case . Either way it is the best case out there

Yes, it is extremely shaky. But as I just said above this quote, I don't think it's worth our time rn.
I also thought you claimed doctor cause of your mention of doc in your post, but was weirded out and thought it was just autocorrect. I don't agree that it is best case. -2 (at most, hopefully) town into day 2 is not a smart idea. Even though it could happen if we get the lynch wrong, I think day 1 is super important for town to make the right choice. Obviously, if benga does not defend himself more thoroughly, I will vote him. But right now, I am more interested in how this ga7 vs wing thing is going to go down.

How about some more flavour in regards to your role ? I am thinking character etc.

Character? Explain

I am assuming nag meant the character profile that was provided in the PM, however I feel like this would be against the rules.

[Skittles!]

But that is going to be the case regardless of who is killed unless we kill a scum. Who are you suggesting that we lynch then? Because I haven't heard any suggestions from you. While I agree with the point that Wing has on ga7, I want to listen to his defense before I jump on him. No one else comes to mind has having any significant scum tells. As I see it, benga is the scummiest person we have here. In my eyes I feel like it's town's best interests to lynch him. I can see that you disagree but in my opinion that would be the play to make so far.

But speaking of peeps, where is like half the game? Are they all scummarining or something? > >

I am suggesting that we re-read the thread and try and find other scum slips. I don't have any suggestions other than that. Yes, benga is the scummiest person here, but I am giving him the benefit of the doubt with his claim. If he is a survivor, then I think it would be a wasted opportunity for town to actually get a mafia member. If he turns out to be a scum, then folly me, I got conned. In saying this, I am absolutely down for lynching benga eventually, I just don't think going after a survivor is the best idea for town when it could put us -2 and with no real knowledge afterwards.

Yes, I would also like to hear from more people. aage, hotshot, ga7 in particular.

Skittles you make it seem that you are convinced that benga is telling the truth. Mafia is a game of manipulation and subterfuge - people lie! Do you not admit that his claim - survivor element aside is extremely shaky. He claimed some civilisation from a random expansion pack, and described them as a 'minor civ' what the hell is a 'minor civ'? He hasn't answered this, as others stated if he quoted city state it may seem more genuine.

Plus all the other smaller scum tells he has made - thinking I claimed doctor etc, the weirdness with the Germany soft claim and backtracking on this at the beginning I can't see any better candidate for a lynch right now.... and fircoal is right on his points he is being attacked on, if worst comes to worse and I am wrong which I do not believe I am then we lose a survivor a third party role which will not damage the town significantly and we will be able to read a lot from the lynch is any case . Either way it is the best case out there

Yes, it is extremely shaky. But as I just said above this quote, I don't think it's worth our time rn.
I also thought you claimed doctor cause of your mention of doc in your post, but was weirded out and thought it was just autocorrect. I don't agree that it is best case. -2 (at most, hopefully) town into day 2 is not a smart idea. Even though it could happen if we get the lynch wrong, I think day 1 is super important for town to make the right choice. Obviously, if benga does not defend himself more thoroughly, I will vote him. But right now, I am more interested in how this ga7 vs wing thing is going to go down.

How about some more flavour in regards to your role ? I am thinking character etc.

Character? Explain

I am assuming nag meant the character profile that was provided in the PM, however I feel like this would be against the rules.

EBWOP, stupid formatting.

[benga]

Apparently not only me did take dakky serious and not sure why my claim was taken serious at the joke time stage?

Actually I have another case during a confirmation stage, but that one will wait for the official game start. In a game of this type even confirms can make a difference, think out of the box...

*yawn*

Actually I have another case during a confirmation stage, but that one will wait for the official game start. In a game of this type even confirms can make a difference, think out of the box...

dang you jsut trying da kill everyone before day break aint cha

I'll just kill a joke vote stage with a few facts about confirmations and some will and some will not be happy about it. But let's wait for the game start.

Your facts mean nothing to me. Nor does the obviously bullshit metagaming theory you're threatening to unfold. If we know one thing, it's that metagaming never stands the test of time.

[benga]

Also about me thinking you claimed doc, how can someone still believe at this point in 2017 that you can make autocorrection fail and even worse it replaced doc with focusing??? Really??

Are those 2 arguments:
'softclaim'-this even didn't come from me and it would be easier for me to just confirm and keep going with it
doc-me being surprised by it

are the best case you guys have?

I am not the best case, I am the easiest case.

[Ragian]

I agree that Benga is the easiest case. However, it's also a case that we can return to should we be shy of cases later D1. There's no need to rush this. I'd like to hear how Ga7 has responded to Wing? Didn't he/she already respond? By saying, "What?" Or something?

Let's also see what a fresh pair of firesided DJ eyes can come up with.

[strike wolf]

@Skittles: I'm interested in Nag's own defense.

@Benga: Misunderstanding the doc part isn't really a valid argument at this point as it would only apply if you were claiming to be town and the argument of you announcomg you thought someone soft claimed doc as being scummy for erroneously trying to out a doc is a small enough point that I dont really care right now. I am more of the position that a. Celts seems like a BS claim. B. The whole buddying up with Dakky thing was strange at best. I admit I don't fully know what to think about the Germany fake soft claim at this moment but defending a player seems like an awfully risky strategy for third party.

First, third party generally have less info than town or scum. Beginning of game you have no way to know if Dakky is actually town youre defending. If Dakky flips scum. Would have been first on the chopping block just a few days ago and might still be. Even if Dakky flips town, being perceived as overly invested in his defense gets a lot of attention thrown your way.

So why was it worth it to you to risk yourself defending Dakky?

@Rage and Wing: I'll reread Ga7. It shouldnt take long. I do admit I may be prone to giving him too much slack in this game as I was looking forward to him hopefully being a bit more active than he has been.

[benga]

it's just comes from my previous experience with him:
2. dakky21, Nikita Mears Killed n1. Town Vigilante/Assasin
12.dakky21 (6,6) Vanilla Serial Killer, Killed N1

It was just the feeling I got about him
he makes up crazy stuff up
and ends up being easy target

at this point, so early in game I am more in favor in siding with town
I have better % of win, that simple

so yes when for instance nag makes 'mistake' I am more keen to distrust him
cause he is very good mafia player as oppose to dakky who gets killed right away in most games

again, my perception might be bad, but this is the feeling that I got from playing mafia on CC