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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:04 pm
by Backglass
Mirak wrote:Could one of the 'Bible experts" please try and explain how the Bible actually came into being..

If it is the word of God, did it just miraculously appear on a bookshelf?


Other questions:
  • Why was it written just a few thousand years ago when humans have been on the planet for much longer? Didnt those people need a god also?
  • Were Adam and Eve cavemen? Neanderthals? OR just like you & me?
  • If jesus is a gods son, and birth control is bad...why only one son? why isnt there a whole god family tree running about?
  • Was Eve really made from one of Adam's ribs? Why not from dust just like Adam? And, why do men and women have the same number of ribs if one was stolen from Adam to make Eve?
  • Was physics different when Noah built the ark? I mean, seriously... how did he get all the animals from all over the world... and the dinosaurs, etc. on that boat? How did he get penguins to the Middle East? How did he get them back after the big flood? Why didn't the dinosaurs eat all the sheep?
  • If Adam & Eve came first, and they had three sons Cain, Abel & Seth, what happened next? There's 4 men and 1 woman, right? What happened next to propagate the species? Who did the children marry? Who did they procreate with? Isn't incest bad? Adam & Eve had other children, so brothers and sisters; or Eve's sons and Eve were having sex? Why aren't we all retarded genetic mistakes? Why didn't the whole human race get physically deformed and mentally handicapped from mixing familial genes?
  • The Ten Commandments: "Thou shalt not kill." Yet Moses was ordered to do a lot of killing. Why if it violates one of the commandments? Why did he wipe out entire cities, kill all the men and rape the women and children?
  • Are we really supposed to believe the fairy tale of Jonah and the whale? Wouldn't Jonah have drowned? Or, wouldn't he have been killed from lack of oxygen in the whales stomach? Or, wouldn't he have been digested by the acids in the whale stomach like everything else?
  • Why create the forbidden fruit on the Tree of Knowledge? If a god didn't want Eve to eat the fruit, why create it in the first place? And, why create the serpent who tempted Eve to eat the fruit? Was he afraid she wouldn't without being tempted by a serpent? Why the game?

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:10 pm
by vtmarik
Another question to add to your list...

If God is omnipotent and all-seeing why does He bother with the whole life thing? He knows whether or not your going to accept Jesus even before you are born, so why all the drama? What does it accomplish?

And I believe that the story of Jonah is a fable, like The Slave and the Lion.

The moral is: "When God tells you to do something, just do it and don't be a dick about it."

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:47 pm
by MeDeFe
I could answer some of those from the perspective of someone reading the bible as literature. Want me to have a go?

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:06 pm
by vtmarik
MeDeFe wrote:I could answer some of those from the perspective of someone reading the bible as literature. Want me to have a go?


Go right ahead, we've pretty much run Jay out of the thread.

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:06 pm
by Backglass
vtmarik wrote:Go right ahead, we've pretty much run Jay out of the thread.


Well jay would just say "with god all things are possible" and wash his hands without explanation. :roll:

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:45 pm
by jay_a2j
"To him who believes, no explanation is necessary; to him that believeth not, no explanation is possible."

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:48 pm
by s.xkitten
hmm, in the past this has been a cop out when you have nothing you can say to it...is that what it is now?

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:58 pm
by Backglass
s.xkitten wrote:hmm, in the past this has been a cop out when you have nothing you can say to it...is that what it is now?


Yup. See my previous post.

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:00 pm
by s.xkitten
alright, just making sure...

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:20 pm
by Caleb the Cruel
1. The whole Bible explains its validity. (I'll post more some other time)
2. I found the below site to be very helpful in the historical validity of the Bible. http://www.creatingfutures.net/validity.html
3. I believe that the Bible is accurate and true.

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:21 pm
by s.xkitten
nice new avatar.... :cry:

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:25 pm
by Caleb the Cruel
s.xkitten wrote:nice new avatar.... :cry:

I think it's sad too, and am debating with myself if I should get rid of it already.
But it's a reminder, of what happened, of how the Islamic militants attacked us, and why we must now fight back, or they will attack us here again.

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:26 pm
by s.xkitten
:roll: oooh...not so nice avatar :roll:

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:56 pm
by stinkycheese
Caleb the Cruel wrote:1. The whole Bible explains its validity. (I'll post more some other time)
2. I found the below site to be very helpful in the historical validity of the Bible. http://www.creatingfutures.net/validity.html
3. I believe that the Bible is accurate and true.


"It should be noted that Christianity is a religion based upon relationship, not knowledge. It is a religion of faith not logic. The information provided is to help answer questions, but ultimately you must believe in the Bible by faith. Because of who God is, we will always have questions. In order to have eternal life, we need to believe the words of Jesus that we are sinners and are in need of a Lord and Savior."

Got this from that webpage. I whole-heartedly agree. Also, the webpage provided is more so into proving Jesus' existence and what is written in the New Testament rather than the accuracy of the Old Testament.

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:20 pm
by areon
Caleb the Cruel wrote:
s.xkitten wrote:nice new avatar.... :cry:

I think it's sad too, and am debating with myself if I should get rid of it already.
But it's a reminder, of what happened, of how the Islamic militants attacked us, and why we must now fight back, or they will attack us here again.


I just hope you know who these people are...

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:37 pm
by s.xkitten
how bout we don't start on that...please guys... :roll:

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:59 pm
by Backglass
Caleb the Cruel wrote:it's a reminder, of what happened, of how the Islamic militants attacked us, and why we must now fight back, or they will attack us here again.


I agree.

Let me know when we start fighting back against Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaida.

So far we have not.

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:05 am
by s.xkitten
Backglass wrote:
Caleb the Cruel wrote:it's a reminder, of what happened, of how the Islamic militants attacked us, and why we must now fight back, or they will attack us here again.


I agree.

Let me know when we start fighting back against Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaida. So far we have not.


yep yep, i agree...at least i tried to stop it from turning into this kind of discussion

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:32 am
by vtmarik
Caleb the Cruel wrote:
s.xkitten wrote:nice new avatar.... :cry:

I think it's sad too, and am debating with myself if I should get rid of it already.
But it's a reminder, of what happened, of how the Islamic militants attacked us, and why we must now fight back, or they will attack us here again.


We know and we won't forget.

Let's also not forget that the best memorial to that tragedy would be to rebuild the towers, add an extra story, and strengthen them further.

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:58 am
by kclborat
jay_a2j wrote:"To him who believes, no explanation is necessary; to him that believeth not, no explanation is possible."


Thank you jay for that illuminating answer to the question posed.

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:00 am
by vtmarik
Yes, anyhow, MeDeFe, I believe you were going to try to answer the questions ala Bible as Literature?

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:45 am
by MeDeFe
So here we go, the readers answers to questions regarding the bible. Just the reader, not a believer or an atheist, just someone who reads.


Backglass wrote:Why was it written just a few thousand years ago when humans have been on the planet for much longer? Didnt those people need a god also?


That's a stupid question to ask a reader, it got written, it gets read, that's about it.

Backglass wrote:Were Adam and Eve cavemen? Neanderthals? OR just like you & me?


They are articulate, they are farmers and raise sheep and stuff. Neanderthals definitely had a language, but they were probably hunters-gatherers who lived a more nomadic life.
So more like us than like neanderthals.

Backglass wrote:If jesus is a gods son, and birth control is bad...why only one son? why isnt there a whole god family tree running about?


He only needs one for the story, the authors must have thought that 2 would have messed up things, although it could have made for a nice plot, too. Gods two sons duke it out on earth, who gets to found the new religion?
In the red corner... the great reformer, the pacifist who turns the other cheek, the man who walks on water and multiplies food for the hungry, he who turns water into wine! Applause fooooor JESUS!

Aaand in the blue corner, straight from the old testament, the smiter of gods enemies, who learned the ancient art of sea parting from Moses himself, who sends plagues and locusts against his enemies! Applause foooooor SUSEJ!


ok, two sons could have made for a pretty good storyline, too.

Backglass wrote:Was Eve really made from one of Adam's ribs? Why not from dust just like Adam? And, why do men and women have the same number of ribs if one was stolen from Adam to make Eve?


According to the bible she was, however, I've heard that it was really meant as half the ribcage and not just one rib. To explain why we don't have any ribs over our stomachs.

Backglass wrote:Was physics different when Noah built the ark? I mean, seriously... how did he get all the animals from all over the world... and the dinosaurs, etc. on that boat? How did he get penguins to the Middle East? How did he get them back after the big flood? Why didn't the dinosaurs eat all the sheep?


There are no dinosaurs in the bible, so they can't eat anything. And penguins are very good swimmers, 40 days in the water isn't such a big deal to them. Anyway, as long as the story's good it doesn't have to be logical.

Backglass wrote:If Adam & Eve came first, and they had three sons Cain, Abel & Seth, what happened next? There's 4 men and 1 woman, right? What happened next to propagate the species? Who did the children marry? Who did they procreate with? Isn't incest bad? Adam & Eve had other children, so brothers and sisters; or Eve's sons and Eve were having sex? Why aren't we all retarded genetic mistakes? Why didn't the whole human race get physically deformed and mentally handicapped from mixing familial genes?


Read it, there ARE other people, too, Cain is afraid he'll be killed by others after god condemns him to being an outcast.

Backglass wrote:The Ten Commandments: "Thou shalt not kill." Yet Moses was ordered to do a lot of killing. Why if it violates one of the commandments? Why did he wipe out entire cities, kill all the men and rape the women and children?


because it makes for a better story if you smite your enemies.

Backglass wrote:Are we really supposed to believe the fairy tale of Jonah and the whale? Wouldn't Jonah have drowned? Or, wouldn't he have been killed from lack of oxygen in the whales stomach? Or, wouldn't he have been digested by the acids in the whale stomach like everything else?


It's a book, surviving inside a whale isn't stranger than Gandalf using magic. Anyway, I read about some 19th century seaman who fell overboard and was swallowed, a few hours later the whale was caught and his mates found him in it. Unconscious but alive. Don't know if it was true, I don't remember where I read it either.
Also there's very little empirical data on the survival rate of humans inside a whale, so if you want to know if it's possible to survive inside a whale I have to answer that it can't be answered.


Backglass wrote:Why create the forbidden fruit on the Tree of Knowledge? If a god didn't want Eve to eat the fruit, why create it in the first place? And, why create the serpent who tempted Eve to eat the fruit? Was he afraid she wouldn't without being tempted by a serpent? Why the game?


In this seminar I'm taking we thought that it boils down to didactic reasons. Of course god knew what would happen, but he wanted A&E to exercise their free will (or at least Eve to exercise it). Same as when he asks Cain where Abel is, he knew already, but he wanted to give Cain a chance to confess.
There are other cases where he deliberately has humans fail. Take Saul for example. I won't tell you what happens because I don't want to spoil the fun for you, you'll have to read it.
But with the right mindset non-believers can have a good time reading the bible, too, I mean, there's sex, intrigues, murder, betrayals, rebellion and pretty much anything you can think of. Just have a go at it some time. This small add-on, the Apocrypha, ain't bad either.

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:42 am
by Backglass
MeDeFe wrote:Anyway, as long as the story's good it doesn't have to be logical.


Which sums it all up nicely. ;)

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:05 am
by jay_a2j
Backglass wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:Anyway, as long as the story's good it doesn't have to be logical.


Which sums it all up nicely. ;)



Not really, but I'll let you guys have your fun. :roll:

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:49 am
by MeDeFe
well, we do.