Conquer Club

this bill is great news

thanks for the info man

SultanOfSurreal wrote:this bill is great news

thanks for the info man

I hope you have rich parents Sultan.

Nobunaga wrote:

Neoteny wrote:We've had a discussion on those scientists before.

... Yeah, and if memory serves you debunked all 34,000.

Every time I read about the same thing the numbers seem to increase.


But anyway, let's just take the opinions of structural engineers over that of climate scientists because we fucking love to drive gasguzzling cars.

Snorri1234 wrote:

Nobunaga wrote:

Neoteny wrote:We've had a discussion on those scientists before.

... Yeah, and if memory serves you debunked all 34,000.

Every time I read about the same thing the numbers seem to increase.


But anyway, let's just take the opinions of structural engineers over that of climate scientists because we fucking love to drive gasguzzling cars.

... Dude, I have climatologists, geologists and physicists saying your theory is a crock.

... But this is a discussion on the greatest tax hike in US history, and your a damned foreigner, so get out!

...

All I have to say at this point is, "What the f*ck are a lot of people thinking!?"

Let us see here.
1. Raising a massive tax while unemployment is still growing.
2. Across the board taxes, including those that are having enough trouble as it is financially.
3. Our charismatic leader, who was supposed to be for "Change we can believe in" is backing this tax hike, and thus going back on another campaign promise (really, how many more until people that voted for him actually admit he is just another lying politician?)
4.

muy_thaiguy wrote:All I have to say at this point is, "What the f*ck are a lot of people thinking!?"

Let us see here.
1. Raising a massive tax while unemployment is still growing.
2. Across the board taxes, including those that are having enough trouble as it is financially.
3. Our charismatic leader, who was supposed to be for "Change we can believe in" is backing this tax hike, and thus going back on another campaign promise (really, how many more until people that voted for him actually admit he is just another lying politician?)
4.

Where do you get your info from? Who's raising your taxes? Are you in the top 5% income earners?

There's no across the board tax hike! Get your facts straight and stop listening to the drug fuelled Rush Limbaugh.

The tax cuts that Bush gave to the rich, will cease to exist next year, since it will expire next year. Those poor rich folks, they're being removed from the tits of the U.S. Treasury, boo-hoo!

Nobunaga wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:

Nobunaga wrote:

Neoteny wrote:We've had a discussion on those scientists before.

... Yeah, and if memory serves you debunked all 34,000.

Every time I read about the same thing the numbers seem to increase.


But anyway, let's just take the opinions of structural engineers over that of climate scientists because we fucking love to drive gasguzzling cars.

... Dude, I have climatologists, geologists and physicists saying your theory is a crock.

... But this is a discussion on the greatest tax hike in US history, and your a damned foreigner, so get out!

...

Oh wow dude, I have climatologists, geologists and physicists saying your theory is a crock.

Like wow man, put the bong down.

The greatest tax hike in history?!?! Poor kid, you are really mixed up aren't you? When Bush's tax cut for the rich expires next year, the rich will pay what they paid back in the good ole days of President Clinton. Yep, the days of balanced budgets and low unemployment.

It sure didn't take long when Bush/Cheney and the Republican Congress to CUT TAXES for the rich and spend us into a sea of red ink!

... This bill was voted on and passed without being read.

... Lovely.

...

Nobunaga wrote:... This bill was voted on and passed without being read.

... Lovely.

...

FYI most bills are passed without being fully read. And if you happened to view any legislation recently, you would know why. Its one reason why congressmen, etc have huge staffs. The junior member are assigned the tasks of actually reading the bills and alerting their bosses if there is anything significant.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

Nobunaga wrote:... This bill was voted on and passed without being read.

... Lovely.

...

FYI most bills are passed without being fully read. And if you happened to view any legislation recently, you would know why. Its one reason why congressmen, etc have huge staffs. The junior member are assigned the tasks of actually reading the bills and alerting their bosses if there is anything significant.

... FYI, nobody read it. What's good for the "stimulus" is good for the carbon tax, I suppose.

http://www.twincities.com/opinion/ci_12 ... ck_check=1

... Just a pile of pork and paybacks anyway, huh? What's the big deal?

...

Nobunaga wrote:... This bill was voted on and passed without being read.

... Lovely.

...

So what? Congress has been doing this for decades.

GENERAL STONEHAM wrote:

Nobunaga wrote:... This bill was voted on and passed without being read.

... Lovely.

...

So what? Congress has been doing this for decades.

So that justifies them to keep doing it when they want to spend record amounts of money and completely change the capitalistic environment of our country?

Night Strike wrote:

GENERAL STONEHAM wrote:

Nobunaga wrote:... This bill was voted on and passed without being read.

... Lovely.

...

So what? Congress has been doing this for decades.

So that justifies them to keep doing it when they want to spend record amounts of money and completely change the capitalistic environment of our country?

If the Bush/Cheney and the Republican Congress didn't change the tax code that President Clinton and Congress passed in the 90s. We wouldn't be in the dire situation we are in now.

For 6 full years Bush/Cheney and the Republican controlled Congress decided to cut taxes to the RICH FAT CATS and raise spending to uncontrollable levels! Now we're in a sea of red ink.

Yes Night Strike, less regulations and less red tape that was a favorite slogan by the Republicans threw us in a DEPRESSION. Our Banks, Financial Institutions and Insurance Giants need MORE OVERSIGHT. GREED got us in this mess.

We need National Healthcare too, otherwise only the RICH will afford good healthcare.

Just don't blame uncontrolled spending on Democrats alone, as the Republicans were spending our children and grandchildrens future for Socialist policies of supporting the RICH FAT CATS. You see Night Strike the Republicans have been susidising those poor RICH FAT CATS for years. God forbid, if those poor RICH FAT CATS get yanked off the tits of the U.S. Treasury.

GENERAL STONEHAM wrote:

Night Strike wrote:

GENERAL STONEHAM wrote:

Nobunaga wrote:... This bill was voted on and passed without being read.

... Lovely.

...

So what? Congress has been doing this for decades.

So that justifies them to keep doing it when they want to spend record amounts of money and completely change the capitalistic environment of our country?

If the Bush/Cheney and the Republican Congress didn't change the tax code that President Clinton and Congress passed in the 90s. We wouldn't be in the dire situation we are in now.

For 6 full years Bush/Cheney and the Republican controlled Congress decided to cut taxes to the RICH FAT CATS and raise spending to uncontrollable levels! Now we're in a sea of red ink.

Yes Night Strike, less regulations and less red tape that was a favorite slogan by the Republicans threw us in a DEPRESSION. Our Banks, Financial Institutions and Insurance Giants need MORE OVERSIGHT. GREED got us in this mess.

We need National Healthcare too, otherwise only the RICH will afford good healthcare.

Just don't blame uncontrolled spending on Democrats alone, as the Republicans were spending our children and grandchildrens future for Socialist policies of supporting the RICH FAT CATS. You see Night Strike the Republicans have been susidising those poor RICH FAT CATS for years. God forbid, if those poor RICH FAT CATS get yanked off the tits of the U.S. Treasury.

Exactly!

But when push comes to shove, chances are it will still be the rest of us shoved more than the fat cats.

GENERAL STONEHAM wrote:If the Bush/Cheney and the Republican Congress didn't change the tax code that President Clinton and Congress passed in the 90s. We wouldn't be in the dire situation we are in now.

For 6 full years Bush/Cheney and the Republican controlled Congress decided to cut taxes to the RICH FAT CATS and raise spending to uncontrollable levels! Now we're in a sea of red ink.

Yes Night Strike, less regulations and less red tape that was a favorite slogan by the Republicans threw us in a DEPRESSION. Our Banks, Financial Institutions and Insurance Giants need MORE OVERSIGHT. GREED got us in this mess.

We need National Healthcare too, otherwise only the RICH will afford good healthcare.

Just don't blame uncontrolled spending on Democrats alone, as the Republicans were spending our children and grandchildrens future for Socialist policies of supporting the RICH FAT CATS. You see Night Strike the Republicans have been susidising those poor RICH FAT CATS for years. God forbid, if those poor RICH FAT CATS get yanked off the tits of the U.S. Treasury.

Everyone got a tax cut under Bush, not just the rich. Plus, many small business owners are considered "rich" under the tax codes, so why should they be paying even more in taxes when they're the ones who supply the most jobs in the country?

Actually, it was the Bush administration who was pushing for more regulation in regards to Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac, but it was congressional democrats like Bernie Frank who were blocking the efforts and saying there were no problems.

Night Strike wrote:

GENERAL STONEHAM wrote:If the Bush/Cheney and the Republican Congress didn't change the tax code that President Clinton and Congress passed in the 90s. We wouldn't be in the dire situation we are in now.

For 6 full years Bush/Cheney and the Republican controlled Congress decided to cut taxes to the RICH FAT CATS and raise spending to uncontrollable levels! Now we're in a sea of red ink.

Yes Night Strike, less regulations and less red tape that was a favorite slogan by the Republicans threw us in a DEPRESSION. Our Banks, Financial Institutions and Insurance Giants need MORE OVERSIGHT. GREED got us in this mess.

We need National Healthcare too, otherwise only the RICH will afford good healthcare.

Just don't blame uncontrolled spending on Democrats alone, as the Republicans were spending our children and grandchildrens future for Socialist policies of supporting the RICH FAT CATS. You see Night Strike the Republicans have been susidising those poor RICH FAT CATS for years. God forbid, if those poor RICH FAT CATS get yanked off the tits of the U.S. Treasury.

Everyone got a tax cut under Bush, not just the rich. Plus, many small business owners are considered "rich" under the tax codes, so why should they be paying even more in taxes when they're the ones who supply the most jobs in the country?

Actually, it was the Bush administration who was pushing for more regulation in regards to Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac, but it was congressional democrats like Bernie Frank who were blocking the efforts and saying there were no problems.

Oh puhleeze save me the partisan garbage. The Bush administration did ZERO enforcement on Fannie Mae and other government agencies. Talk is cheap.

As far as small businesses are concerned, it's a fallacy about the Democrats thinking the small business man is RICH. More spin by the rightwing partisans. Just like the Death Tax, the Republicans say that the Democrats will take your farm and small business away from you. When the Democrats plan only effects only .025% you know....the obscenely RICH.

I think that 100% of people here use electricity. And this tax will be absorbed and passed through by every power company in the country. What do you think that the electric company is going to ignore the higher costs of producing energy?

Is Nancy Pelosi going to buy carbon credits for her private jet? Does the Congress still have their own power plant? I bet that becomes exempt from the bill, if they do.

jbrettlip wrote:I think that 100% of people here use electricity. And this tax will be absorbed and passed through by every power company in the country. What do you think that the electric company is going to ignore the higher costs of producing energy?

Is Nancy Pelosi going to buy carbon credits for her private jet? Does the Congress still have their own power plant? I bet that becomes exempt from the bill, if they do.

My state "suddenly" decided that wind power would be a good investment. Seems Texas has, too. I don't like any tax increase, but I want to live in a country that has decent roads, schools and parks anyone can visit... etc.

Profit is great, but too much of what companies and stockholders have received recently is not true profit, it is shifting costs of their doing business onto the tax payers. That is not what a free market should be.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

jbrettlip wrote:I think that 100% of people here use electricity. And this tax will be absorbed and passed through by every power company in the country. What do you think that the electric company is going to ignore the higher costs of producing energy?

Is Nancy Pelosi going to buy carbon credits for her private jet? Does the Congress still have their own power plant? I bet that becomes exempt from the bill, if they do.

My state "suddenly" decided that wind power would be a good investment. Seems Texas has, too. I don't like any tax increase, but I want to live in a country that has decent roads, schools and parks anyone can visit... etc.

Profit is great, but too much of what companies and stockholders have received recently is not true profit, it is shifting costs of their doing business onto the tax payers. That is not what a free market should be.

It is exactly what a free market is. If you don't like it, you buy from a different utility. Unfortunately, it's usually not an option because utilities are highly regulated entities, not just from an operations perspective, but from a financial perspective. I would expect (but am admittedly unsure) that the US government could put regulations in place to attempt to force the utilties not to pass through the cost onto the customers. However, I think the point of the bill is to have the tax pass along to the customers. The government wants people to be taxed so they stop using utilities that create "large carbon footprints."

thegreekdog wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

jbrettlip wrote:I think that 100% of people here use electricity. And this tax will be absorbed and passed through by every power company in the country. What do you think that the electric company is going to ignore the higher costs of producing energy?

Is Nancy Pelosi going to buy carbon credits for her private jet? Does the Congress still have their own power plant? I bet that becomes exempt from the bill, if they do.

My state "suddenly" decided that wind power would be a good investment. Seems Texas has, too. I don't like any tax increase, but I want to live in a country that has decent roads, schools and parks anyone can visit... etc.

Profit is great, but too much of what companies and stockholders have received recently is not true profit, it is shifting costs of their doing business onto the tax payers. That is not what a free market should be.

It is exactly what a free market is. If you don't like it, you buy from a different utility. Unfortunately, it's usually not an option because utilities are highly regulated entities, not just from an operations perspective, but from a financial perspective. I would expect (but am admittedly unsure) that the US government could put regulations in place to attempt to force the utilties not to pass through the cost onto the customers. However, I think the point of the bill is to have the tax pass along to the customers. The government wants people to be taxed so they stop using utilities that create "large carbon footprints."

Free market in utilities never will be a true option, because they depend upon set infrastructure and are not truly portable -- one necessity for real competition.

But again, the real problem is that most large businesses (as opposed to small businesses) have not been truly paying for their costs of doing business. They get tax breaks in the name of "creating jobs", and then the rest of us help subsidize the companies real expenses.

PLAYER57832 wrote:But again, the real problem is that most large businesses (as opposed to small businesses) have not been truly paying for their costs of doing business. They get tax breaks in the name of "creating jobs", and then the rest of us help subsidize the companies real expenses.

Again (ad infinitum), I have no idea where you're getting this from. Large businesses employ many people, they provide goods and services for others to purchase. Are there tax breaks for big companies? It depends. In many cases, tax breaks for big companies involve something that the government truly wants. For example, if a government of a state wants more jobs in a depressed area, they provide tax credits (in Pennsylvania these are called Keystone Opportunity Zones). The give tax credits to companies that create jobs in those depressed areas. I think that's okay, and it creates jobs. The governor of Pennsylvania seems to like it.

I think that a company passing on its expenses to its customers is just something that happens. If you don't want it to happen, don't buy things from that company. Like I said, I don't shop at Walmart (for non-tax reasons).

thegreekdog wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:But again, the real problem is that most large businesses (as opposed to small businesses) have not been truly paying for their costs of doing business. They get tax breaks in the name of "creating jobs", and then the rest of us help subsidize the companies real expenses.

Again (ad infinitum), I have no idea where you're getting this from. Large businesses employ many people, they provide goods and services for others to purchase. Are there tax breaks for big companies? It depends. In many cases, tax breaks for big companies involve something that the government truly wants. For example, if a government of a state wants more jobs in a depressed area, they provide tax credits (in Pennsylvania these are called Keystone Opportunity Zones). The give tax credits to companies that create jobs in those depressed areas. I think that's okay, and it creates jobs. The governor of Pennsylvania seems to like it.

I think that a company passing on its expenses to its customers is just something that happens. If you don't want it to happen, don't buy things from that company. Like I said, I don't shop at Walmart (for non-tax reasons).

Pennsylvania, America starts here state. When I left PA. they were pretty sure the steel mills were gonna open back up. Of course they had been saying that every night at the bar since 1979. I am curious what you think about PA drilling for oil again?
Do you think it's a good idea or bad?

GENERAL STONEHAM wrote:Talk is cheap.

Then maybe you should shut up and provide proof before raving. At least PLAYER is talking in a civilized manner and not childish "I'm right and your wrong!" Try it sometime maybe someone will take you seriously.



Under Clinton, taxes per household rose about 145%. From when Bush II started to when he ended the taxes decreased by about 9%. Not to mention the large drop from 2000 to 2003. It's not surprising taxes went up after 2003, we entered a war. What's Clinton's excuse?

Clinton had the internet bubble, with people paying a high capital gains tax. That is how he had a surplus. Of course the government sat on the surplus and then decided to return it to taxpayers to stave off the recession after the bubble burst. That recession was very weak, but probably made this recession this much worse. Any surplus should have to go immediately to pay debt. That should be a constitutional amendment. If we have no debt, then it can be returned to taxpayers.

thelastpatriot wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:But again, the real problem is that most large businesses (as opposed to small businesses) have not been truly paying for their costs of doing business. They get tax breaks in the name of "creating jobs", and then the rest of us help subsidize the companies real expenses.

Again (ad infinitum), I have no idea where you're getting this from. Large businesses employ many people, they provide goods and services for others to purchase. Are there tax breaks for big companies? It depends. In many cases, tax breaks for big companies involve something that the government truly wants. For example, if a government of a state wants more jobs in a depressed area, they provide tax credits (in Pennsylvania these are called Keystone Opportunity Zones). The give tax credits to companies that create jobs in those depressed areas. I think that's okay, and it creates jobs. The governor of Pennsylvania seems to like it.

I think that a company passing on its expenses to its customers is just something that happens. If you don't want it to happen, don't buy things from that company. Like I said, I don't shop at Walmart (for non-tax reasons).

Pennsylvania, America starts here state. When I left PA. they were pretty sure the steel mills were gonna open back up. Of course they had been saying that every night at the bar since 1979. I am curious what you think about PA drilling for oil again?
Do you think it's a good idea or bad?

Do you mean oil or natural gas?

The big hype here is the Marsalla shale with natural gas. I have not heard of new oil drilling.

Natural gas is a mixed bag. A lot of it sits under the Allegheny forest. You probably know that the forest does not own the rights to minerals, so legally, there is a limit to what they can do to stop it. The solution they use to extract the Natural gas uses a lot of water and includes very toxic chemicals. Right now, there is legislation pending to ensure that the companies take steps to ensure people's drinking water is better protected. Of course, the companies are opposed. They want local legislation only. Local people are largely interested just in the jobs. Few have the scientific or environmental knowledge neceessary to fight. This is the same area where my son was just told that frogs "belong to Vertebratae, which means they have no backbone". Last year the kids were told that spiders have 6 legs "because they are insects". It is also a very depressed economy. The major industry is Powdered Metal, the secondary one is timber and then a rising tourism trade.

Powdered Metal won't be affected, except possible water use issues (increased competition), which should not be that significant for Powdered Metal plants. Timber and tourism both can have potential heavy impacts, (tourism more than timber), but those impacts are remote. There is concern, but far more people see dollar signs than danger.

The environmental movement itself has not helped matters. One notable "protest" had people dressed up in carrots parading in front of the Forest Supervisor's office, hyping about destroying old-growth dependent species. The forest is almost entirely second growth (I would say entirely, but people like to count the tiny patches that are left). The species in question, the Indiana bat, needed some dead trees, etc. They were already included in plans. Still, it cost taxpayers huge sums of money to fight off those idiots (and this from a definitely environmentally conscious biologist!).