Conquer Club

Napoleon Ier wrote:Norman culture was welded together based on where they found themselves. I referred specifically to those of Normandy,I know about them in some detail. Equally applicable to those in Italy or elsewhere. They were simply assimilated into the culture of wherever they came to find themselves.

Normandy's Normans are not Normans in Southern Italy.
If you don't know what are you talking about you are clearly talking nonsense.

Mainly British medieval history and in particular the 13th centuary, to specialise even further, Simon de Montfort. Since I left school many moons ago and have no plans to return I do this just for the pleasure of doing it.

Napoleon Ier wrote:Norman culture was welded together based on where they found themselves. I referred specifically to those of Normandy,I know about them in some detail. Equally applicable to those in Italy or elsewhere. They were simply assimilated into the culture of wherever they came to find themselves.

Well scholarship argues differently. Assimilation was certainly not the Norman model. In Southern Italy and also in England they replaced the ruling class, culturally, linguistically and racially.

I really don't know what point you're trying to prove here, but I don't think it is particularly constructive and it seems like you may be bringing over the baggage of political debates. Please don't.

if you want to have a proper debate about the ethnicity and culture of the Normans then feel free, but it needs to be one where you state sources, scholarly opinions and evidence. My tutor as an undergraduate, and an now an associate, is Professor Graham Loud, whose studies on Norman demography and origin are well respected and generally considered authoritative 'How 'Norman' were the Normans' is a particularly interesting article. I think it is in a volume entitled 'The Society of Norman Italy' but I could be wrong... His 'The Age of Robert Guiscard' is equally as enthralling, and I'd recommend it to anyone with even a basic interest in the topic.

I don't know where you're getting your information from but it doesn't seem to be scholarship...

Gypsys Kiss wrote:Mainly British medieval history and in particular the 13th centuary, to specialise even further, Simon de Montfort. Since I left school many moons ago and have no plans to return I do this just for the pleasure of doing it.

Brilliant. I always felt I should have paid more attention to English medieval history. I've always been more captivated by France, Germany and Italy. I studied it as an undergrad but I've not really considered anything in detail since.

I have been looking into Henry I and the succession of Empress Matilda as a precedent for successions in the Kingdom of Jerusalem, but thats about it really.

Guiscard wrote:

Gypsys Kiss wrote:Mainly British medieval history and in particular the 13th centuary, to specialise even further, Simon de Montfort. Since I left school many moons ago and have no plans to return I do this just for the pleasure of doing it.

Brilliant. I always felt I should have paid more attention to English medieval history. I've always been more captivated by France, Germany and Italy. I studied it as an undergrad but I've not really considered anything in detail since.

I have been looking into Henry I and the succession of Empress Matilda as a precedent for successions in the Kingdom of Jerusalem, but thats about it really.

I never studied history at school, me and the teacher never got on.
I went to a school named after Simon in Evesham where he died. that is why I am so interseted in him. I'm also reading about the Welsh princes of the same period because Simons daughter married Llewelyn the Last.

I find all history is an escape from my everyday life.

Guiscard wrote:
Well scholarship argues differently. Assimilation was certainly not the Norman model. In Southern Italy and also in England they replaced the ruling class, culturally, linguistically and racially.

I really don't know what point you're trying to prove here, but I don't think it is particularly constructive and it seems like you may be bringing over the baggage of political debates. Please don't.

if you want to have a proper debate about the ethnicity and culture of the Normans then feel free, but it needs to be one where you state sources, scholarly opinions and evidence. My tutor as an undergraduate, and an now an associate, is Professor Graham Loud, whose studies on Norman demography and origin are well respected and generally considered authoritative 'How 'Norman' were the Normans' is a particularly interesting article. I think it is in a volume entitled 'The Society of Norman Italy' but I could be wrong... His 'The Age of Robert Guiscard' is equally as enthralling, and I'd recommend it to anyone with even a basic interest in the topic.

I am certainly not seeking political debate

I am telling yo he Normans retain no real single culture but have huge differences between each other in their various paces of settlement. They influenced those areas, but you always notice that they draw mainly from indigenous culture. That is a well known phenomenon, the rulers progressively meld in with rules, but with the Normans it is so visible because they really had to truly etnically "Norman" land.

Just look at their architecture :Sicilian Rmanesque -- Byzantino-islamic, granted, with exported elements of architecture from France addded in. Again in Normandy, you tend to find that they have a very similar styleto that of French castels.

Napoleon Ier wrote:

Guiscard wrote:
Well scholarship argues differently. Assimilation was certainly not the Norman model. In Southern Italy and also in England they replaced the ruling class, culturally, linguistically and racially.

I really don't know what point you're trying to prove here, but I don't think it is particularly constructive and it seems like you may be bringing over the baggage of political debates. Please don't.

if you want to have a proper debate about the ethnicity and culture of the Normans then feel free, but it needs to be one where you state sources, scholarly opinions and evidence. My tutor as an undergraduate, and an now an associate, is Professor Graham Loud, whose studies on Norman demography and origin are well respected and generally considered authoritative 'How 'Norman' were the Normans' is a particularly interesting article. I think it is in a volume entitled 'The Society of Norman Italy' but I could be wrong... His 'The Age of Robert Guiscard' is equally as enthralling, and I'd recommend it to anyone with even a basic interest in the topic.

I am certainly not seeking political debate

I am telling yo he Normans retain no real single culture but have huge differences between each other in their various paces of settlement. They influenced those areas, but you always notice that they draw mainly from indigenous culture. That is a well known phenomenon, the rulers progressively meld in with rules, but with the Normans it is so visible because they really had to truly etnically "Norman" land.

Just look at their architecture :Sicilian Rmanesque -- Byzantino-islamic, granted, with exported elements of architecture from France addded in. Again in Normandy, you tend to find that they have a very similar styleto that of French castels.

In that time (11th & 12th century) Mediterranean circle culture was a mixture of all this North-South and East-West influences (for example in Croatia that time we had German influence in continental part of the country and Italian, Byzantine & Arab influences in Dalmatia).

I dont dispute it

Napoleon Ier wrote:I am certainly not seeking political debate

I am telling yo he Normans retain no real single culture but have huge differences between each other in their various paces of settlement. They influenced those areas, but you always notice that they draw mainly from indigenous culture. That is a well known phenomenon, the rulers progressively meld in with rules, but with the Normans it is so visible because they really had to truly etnically "Norman" land.

Just look at their architecture :Sicilian Rmanesque -- Byzantino-islamic, granted, with exported elements of architecture from France addded in. Again in Normandy, you tend to find that they have a very similar styleto that of French castels.

Did I at any point state that any of that wasn't really true? The Normans were only ever a minority ruling class... how could they ever even expect to impose their culture on the entirety of their conquests?

This debate isn't going anywhere, and is fairly pointless, so lets end it right here.

Gypsys Kiss wrote:I never studied history at school, me and the teacher never got on.
I went to a school named after Simon in Evesham where he died. that is why I am so interseted in him. I'm also reading about the Welsh princes of the same period because Simons daughter married Llewelyn the Last.

I find all history is an escape from my everyday life.

Sounds intriguing. If you ever need anything which can only be obtained with a university account (anything from the vast stores of online journal articles, for example) don't hesitate to let me know. I can get hold of pretty much any digitized text.

Guiscard wrote:

Gypsys Kiss wrote:I never studied history at school, me and the teacher never got on.
I went to a school named after Simon in Evesham where he died. that is why I am so interseted in him. I'm also reading about the Welsh princes of the same period because Simons daughter married Llewelyn the Last.

I find all history is an escape from my everyday life.

Sounds intriguing. If you ever need anything which can only be obtained with a university account (anything from the vast stores of online journal articles, for example) don't hesitate to let me know. I can get hold of pretty much any digitized text.

I shall bare that in mind. Thank you.

OnlyAmbrose wrote:Alright, I posted it in the majors thread and I'll post it here too...

I REALLY want to be a history major, but I've never been convinced of how it would be useful in life. Sure, I could be a history teacher, but I've always felt that a book could do the same job as a history teacher. So... why should I be a history teacher and what is the use of history except having some cool stories to tell?

Same here. None of the jobs (i.e. writhing about history, teaching, archive stuff, etc.) interest me with history. I'm just going to go get a degree in History and see where, if anywhere, it leads me.

We could also form a history clan for history buffs here on CC if you guys wanted to.

Only if you count mafia and CC history. Mainly Mafia.

rocky8179 wrote:
We could also form a history clan for history buffs here on CC if you guys wanted to.

I'd join

Gypsys Kiss wrote:

rocky8179 wrote:
We could also form a history clan for history buffs here on CC if you guys wanted to.

I'd join

Same here.

Guiscard wrote:

Napoleon Ier wrote:I am certainly not seeking political debate

I am telling yo he Normans retain no real single culture but have huge differences between each other in their various paces of settlement. They influenced those areas, but you always notice that they draw mainly from indigenous culture. That is a well known phenomenon, the rulers progressively meld in with rules, but with the Normans it is so visible because they really had to truly etnically "Norman" land.

Just look at their architecture :Sicilian Rmanesque -- Byzantino-islamic, granted, with exported elements of architecture from France addded in. Again in Normandy, you tend to find that they have a very similar styleto that of French castels.

Did I at any point state that any of that wasn't really true? The Normans were only ever a minority ruling class... how could they ever even expect to impose their culture on the entirety of their conquests?

This debate isn't going anywhere, and is fairly pointless, so lets end it right here.

agreed

Fircoal wrote:Only if you count mafia and CC history. Mainly Mafia.

I'd rather you didn't spam this thread. Cheers.

muy_thaiguy wrote:

Gypsys Kiss wrote:

rocky8179 wrote:
We could also form a history clan for history buffs here on CC if you guys wanted to.

I'd join

Same here.

Well then.....we just might have to get together and do something about that.

Guiscard wrote:

Fircoal wrote:Only if you count mafia and CC history. Mainly Mafia.

I'd rather you didn't spam this thread. Cheers.

uh, guiscard I didn't mean it as spam. I'm serious. I'm not one that likes to look at history like empires and such, but I like history of MAfia, CC and video game series I've played. While you may not think of them as the history that you mean. I still find them more interesting. I just wanted to know if they counted.

Hi Guiscard I'm currently studying History at undergraduate level in Southampton focusing on history and historians, first world war and early jewish magic.

I received my B.A. in History/Social Science in 1995. I later went back to college to receive my teaching credential from 2001-2002. For 2 years I taught Geography & American History in San Diego. I also taught 1 year of World History at the 7th grade level (which is almost nothing).

After 2 years, I decided to take a job with a private company in Riverside County, California. I now teach ESL to adults. In addition to that I teach a basic American History class which prepares adult students wishing to become U.S. citizens. I don't really specialize in any particular time period, but I am finding the American colonial period & the Revolution more fascinating as I continue to read more about the people involved.

Right now I am taking care of a disabled friend who has his doctorate in political philosophy from The Claremont Institute. He is now a professor of history and political science so I get to discuss many things with him and I don't have to pay tuition for it! I'm constantly trying to read more and learn. I also get to attend guest lecturers' speeches for free. I also get to conduct political science classes whenever he's too sick.

I tried to convince Mike Doherty awhile back to read "All on Fire": William Lloyd Garrison & The Abolition of Slavery by Henry Mayer. I've got no idea if I had any effect on him. The best series of books I've read are from the Major Problems in American History series. Here's just one of the books in the series

Fircoal wrote:uh, guiscard I didn't mean it as spam. I'm serious. I'm not one that likes to look at history like empires and such, but I like history of MAfia, CC and video game series I've played. While you may not think of them as the history that you mean. I still find them more interesting. I just wanted to know if they counted.

No offence, but no. I'm meaning history in the sense of the academic subject.

nagerous wrote:Hi Guiscard I'm currently studying History at undergraduate level in Southampton focusing on history and historians, first world war and early jewish magic.

Do you mean history and historians in a historiographical sense? If so, good luck I've always found historiography a bit of a pointless warren, especially when you start getting into post-modernism and the like.

As for early Jewish magic, that sounds really interesting. Not something I've ever really come across! What do you mean by 'early'?

That would be the kabalah.

Guiscard wrote:Do you mean history and historians in a historiographical sense? If so, good luck I've always found historiography a bit of a pointless warren, especially when you start getting into post-modernism and the like.

Yes, all those schools and different approaches. I didn't like that much...