patches70 wrote:The votes are in. Catalonia voted 89% in favor of independence. Within 48hours the regional government should be declaring independence, as they promised they would based on the voting.
On the other hand, there was a mere 43% turn-out
Funnily enough that’s the exact same percentage of Europeans who voted for the current European Parliament:
waauw wrote:I agree, more countries should install compulsory voting.
In that "other game" I love to play ... they have really funny daily issues for national leaders to consider. The first issue on the queue actually addresses this and I love the quote from it.
Compulsory voting makes about as much sense as having the death penalty for attempted suicide.
waauw wrote:I agree, more countries should install compulsory voting.
In that "other game" I love to play ... they have really funny daily issues for national leaders to consider. The first issue on the queue actually addresses this and I love the quote from it.
Compulsory voting makes about as much sense as having the death penalty for attempted suicide.
Well we have it here in Belgium, it works just fine. High turn-out, the youth doesn't massively cop-out and the impact of radical parties are thwarted in their efforts when the less vehement come out as well.
patches70 wrote:The votes are in. Catalonia voted 89% in favor of independence. Within 48hours the regional government should be declaring independence, as they promised they would based on the voting.
On the other hand, there was a mere 43% turn-out
Funnily enough that’s the exact same percentage of Europeans who voted for the current European Parliament:
There is nothing virtuous or sustainable about democracy. On the contrary, population control must be our priority if Earth is to continue as human habitat
patches70 wrote:The votes are in. Catalonia voted 89% in favor of independence. Within 48hours the regional government should be declaring independence, as they promised they would based on the voting.
On the other hand, there was a mere 43% turn-out
Funnily enough that’s the exact same percentage of Europeans who voted for the current European Parliament:
I agree, more countries should install compulsory voting.
Is the EU Parliament illegitimate, or is the Catalonian referendum legitimate?
I don't think you understand the gravity. The referendum was already illegal. Any further reason to doubt its political weight is like kicking an already rickety chair. There is a rational reason to believe people stayed away precisely because of its illegitimacy. Add to that the absence of international oversight; low electoral transparency is never a plus, and you have enough political ground to doubt the validity of the outcome and any potential subsequent declaration of independence. Something Catalunya can ill afford.
To illustrate one problem concerning the lack of transparency, here's a piece from a flemish newspaper. I'll translate it for you:
[NL]Carlos Rivadulla stapt met een snelle tred zijn kantoor in hartje Barcelona binnen. De ondernemer is een man met een missie. ‘Weet je dat er maar drie zakenmensen openlijk hun stem laten horen tegen het referendum.’, zegt hij. ‘Ik ben er een van. De rest heeft schrik.’ De Catalaan uit zich graag bij lokale en buitenlandse media. ‘Deze regio heeft zo veel te verliezen.’
Rivadulla is voorzitter van een werkgeversorganisatie die 400 bedrijven vertegenwoordigt. ‘Geen enkele bedrijfsleider wil zijn naam opgeven als het over deze kwestie gaat’, zegt hij. ‘Het onafhankelijkheidskamp is enorm machtig. Het controleert de regionale overheid en veel steden. Niemand wil daar ruzie mee. Niemand wil zijn contracten op het spel zetten.’
Het verschil met pakweg het Schotse referendum van drie jaar geleden of het brexitreferendum van vorig jaar is groot. Toen kozen de bedrijven een kant of dreigden ze zelfs met een vertrek als het tot een breuk kwam. Voetbalclub FC Barcelona trok haar stoute schoenen aan en schaarde zich achter een stembusgang. Voorts kwam haast geen enkel Catalaans bedrijf met een statement, laat staan een oproep voor of tegen onafhankelijkheid. ----------------------------------------------------------
[EN]Carlos Rivadulla walks quickly into his office in center Barcelona. The entrepreneur is a man with a mission. 'Did you know that there are only three business men openly expression their voice against the referendum.', he says. 'I'm one of the them. The rest is afraid.' The Catalan likes to talk to local and foreign media. 'This region has a lot to lose.'
Rivadulla is chairman to an employers' association that represents 400 companies. 'Not a single business leader wants to submit his name when it comes to this issue', he says. 'The independence camp is immensely powerful. It holds control over the local government and cities. Nobody wants to fight them. Nobody wants to put his contracts at stake.'
The difference with for instance the Scottish referendum or the brexit referendum last year is immense. Back then businesses chose a side or even threatened with departure if it came to a breach. Football club FC Barcelona put its weight behind the referendum. Aside from them there were barely any Catalan businesses providing statements, not even a call for or against independence.
So now you’re abandoning your claim that voter turnout was too low, in favour of some nudge-nudge-wink-wink argument about the Catalan government bullying those opposed to independence to stay silent.
Next it’ll be ‘the stormtroopers were only beating up those voters in order to squeeze all the Russian propaganda out of their brains’.
mrswdk wrote:So now you’re abandoning your claim that voter turnout was too low, in favour of some nudge-nudge-wink-wink argument about the Catalan government bullying those opposed to independence to stay silent.
Next it’ll be ‘the stormtroopers were only beating up those voters in order to squeeze all the Russian propaganda out of their brains’.
Look mate, I realise I am very vehement person and a psychological train-wreck, but your sadistic games are getting old. Seriously tell me. Why do you feel this innate desire to constantly troll the hell out of me? Do you hold some kind of vendetta against me or are you simply the sadist you appear to be?
And before, you make your standard escape: 'yes, it's clear you're constantly trying to bait me with EU-related topics' because I have trouble controlling impulses.
mrswdk: the Catalans have voted for independence waauw: turnout was too low to be valid mrswdk: turnout was the same at EU Parliament elections waauw: okay but the vote was rigged by the Catalan government mrswdk: you're just looking for excuses now waauw: STOP BAITING ME
Just because you're Belgian doesn't mean any thread I make about the EU is an attempt to undermine you as a person. This is a thread about the people of Catalonia and their desire to become an independent nation state.
mrswdk wrote:mrswdk: the Catalans have voted for independence waauw: turnout was too low to be valid mrswdk: turnout was the same at EU Parliament elections waauw: okay but the vote was rigged by the Catalan government mrswdk: you're just looking for excuses now waauw: STOP BAITING ME
Just because you're Belgian doesn't mean any thread I make about the EU is an attempt to undermine you as a person. This is a thread about the people of Catalonia and their desire to become an independent nation state.
Oh please, you do nothing BUT bait people for your trolling games. You twist words and lie for nothing else but your trolling games. You ignore everything that might put you on the defensive and go full on the offensive for nothing else but your trolling games. You consistently pick the controversial perspectives on sensitive topics to bait people. Politics, ethics, culture and civil rights. In every single one of these subjects you try to step on as many toes as possible.
I seem to simply be the biggest fool to take the bait so often.
Speaking of ignoring: does that fact you've dropped your 'low turnout' point mean you have conceded that 43% turnout for the Catalonian vote is a high enough level of participation?
It's this exact same thing happened in Taiwan or Hong Kong no doubt there'd be half a dozen American trollbots swarming OT with posts about 'the will of the people' immediately. Funny how when a European country it's suddenly an 'internal matter'.
waauw wrote:Well we have it here in Belgium, it works just fine. High turn-out, the youth doesn't massively cop-out and the impact of radical parties are thwarted in their efforts when the less vehement come out as well.
Don't get me started on the notion of parliamentary proportional system where only the legislature is in the hands of the people (being under a monarchy). I would be interested in how many citizens just vote flat party line given the plethora of positions that they typically have to vote for in the ballot.
You might just as well have proportion based on party registration.
This is a festering problem in Spain that the Prime minister has worsened considerably with his oppressive actions and the double standard employed a decade ago when Catalonia was not given the same tax breaks as the Basque region in the north. No one likes it when their hard earned money is used disproportionately to help people elsewhere. He has no one but himself to blame.
mrswdk wrote:mrswdk: the Catalans have voted for independence waauw: turnout was too low to be valid mrswdk: turnout was the same at EU Parliament elections waauw: okay but the vote was rigged by the Catalan government mrswdk: you're just looking for excuses now waauw: STOP BAITING ME
Just because you're Belgian doesn't mean any thread I make about the EU is an attempt to undermine you as a person. This is a thread about the people of Catalonia and their desire to become an independent nation state.
Oh please, you do nothing BUT bait people for your trolling games. You twist words and lie for nothing else but your trolling games. You ignore everything that might put you on the defensive and go full on the offensive for nothing else but your trolling games. You consistently pick the controversial perspectives on sensitive topics to bait people. Politics, ethics, culture and civil rights. In every single one of these subjects you try to step on as many toes as possible.
I seem to simply be the biggest fool to take the bait so often.
mrswdk wrote:Speaking of ignoring: does that fact you've dropped your 'low turnout' point mean you have conceded that 43% turnout for the Catalonian vote is a high enough level of participation?
It's this exact same thing happened in Taiwan or Hong Kong no doubt there'd be half a dozen American trollbots swarming OT with posts about 'the will of the people' immediately. Funny how when a European country it's suddenly an 'internal matter'.
Dude I already answered you, you simply chose to ignore my answer.
waauw wrote:I don't think you understand the gravity. The referendum was already illegal. Any further reason to doubt its political weight is like kicking an already rickety chair. There is a rational reason to believe people stayed away precisely because of its illegitimacy. Add to that the absence of international oversight; low electoral transparency is never a plus, and you have enough political ground to doubt the validity of the outcome and any potential subsequent declaration of independence. Something Catalunya can ill afford.
Last edited by waauw on Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
waauw wrote:Well we have it here in Belgium, it works just fine. High turn-out, the youth doesn't massively cop-out and the impact of radical parties are thwarted in their efforts when the less vehement come out as well.
Don't get me started on the notion of parliamentary proportional system where only the legislature is in the hands of the people (being under a monarchy). I would be interested in how many citizens just vote flat party line given the plethora of positions that they typically have to vote for in the ballot.
You might just as well have proportion based on party registration.
The monarchy in Belgium has basically no power and about half the population is actually in favour of abandoning the monarchy(including me). The royal family is purely ceremonial at this point. And we don't have to vote for a plethora of positions, we simply vote for 1 person or 1 party on the ballot.
Anyway, I fail to see what this has to do with compulsory voting. Neither monarchy, nor the ballot form nor the proportional parliamentary system are mutually inclusive with compulsory voting.
mrswdk wrote:Speaking of ignoring: does that fact you've dropped your 'low turnout' point mean you have conceded that 43% turnout for the Catalonian vote is a high enough level of participation?
It's this exact same thing happened in Taiwan or Hong Kong no doubt there'd be half a dozen American trollbots swarming OT with posts about 'the will of the people' immediately. Funny how when a European country it's suddenly an 'internal matter'.
Taiwan doesn't even make sense, since that is the legitimate capital of China, did you mean Beijing?
EU agrees separatism must not be tolerated??? When Kosovo open pandora box with unilateral independence from Serbia(ofcourse supported by force of NATO), then separatism are welcomed for EU and this was special case in universe where some territory in EARTH who never been a country or sovereign state have right to become Independent (of course again with support of EU and US armed forces). Kosovo special case hes separatist have right and CATALONIA dont have right to be independent? Double standard maybe? Many people say with Kosovo pandora box are open.
lol, i'm not going to bother reading all the nonesense in here because you obviously know shit all regarding spain and catalonia. But hey, read a bit more about the matter, who are the people behind the separatists, and what the vast silent majority of the catalonians think.
