Conquer Club

Stopper wrote:I don't know, because the link given doesn't detail it, but I'm willing to bet the student concerned wasn't aware of your rather long-winded and contrived justification as to why he wasn't supposed to write what he thought, when that was exactly was he was told to do.

Not sure how my seven lines is either contrived or long winded....but
okay- since you obviously don't like to read:

1. Free writing is an educationally valid teaching strategy taught worldwide.
2. Obvious social constraints should not need to be stated. "Nobody told me not to do it" is not a valid justification.

There- I cut it down to two- enjoy.

Stopper wrote:

foolish_yeti wrote:How is a free writing exercise even remotely close to a death threat list?

This statement is bizarre, given there's nothing in the link to suggest that the student produced one.

Ummm....it's not bizarre if you actually read what I'm responding to.

foolish_yeti wrote:Not sure how my seven lines is either contrived or long winded....but
okay- since you obviously don't like to read:

1. Free writing is an educationally valid teaching strategy taught worldwide.
2. Obvious social constraints should not need to be stated. "Nobody told me not to do it" is not a valid justification.

Well, sorry, but even though my English classes were quite a long time ago now, the material we were exposed to could be far beyond what little sample of the schoolboy's work we saw - I wasn't lying about the poem about the murderous schoolteacher.

I'm surprised that you seem to think that such open-ended creative writing is supposed to remain within "obvious" social constraints. God knows where journalism would be now if everyone thought that - oh no, wait, we already do know.

I'm even more surprised you don't seem to object to the schoolteacher concerned, who, given the little information we have, seems to have overreacted on one kid's assignment. At the very least, you seem to be ready to leap to the defence of the schooling and law enforcement system of a country you don't even live in - and on such little information, too.

I'll admit to making a mistake on the second point, though...I missed what mandalorian said there...

Stopper wrote:Well, sorry, but even though my English classes were quite a long time ago now, the material we were exposed to could be far beyond what little sample of the schoolboy's work we saw - I wasn't lying about the poem about the murderous schoolteacher.

There is a correct and an incorrect way to approach such writing.

Stopper wrote:I'm surprised that you seem to think that such open-ended creative writing is supposed to remain within "obvious" social constraints. God knows where journalism would be now if everyone thought that - oh no, wait, we already do know.

I wasn't aware that writing about killing your classmates and then having sex with them is creative. I would also argue that most people would agree that such violent necrophilia is not a good thing...and thus not a very smart thing to hand in to your teacher.

Stopper wrote:I'm even more surprised you don't seem to object to the schoolteacher concerned, who, given the little information we have, seems to have overreacted on one kid's assignment. At the very least, you seem to be ready to leap to the defence of the schooling and law enforcement system of a country you don't even live in - and on such little information, too.

Well besides the point that you're doing the same thing for the student based on the exact same information....you're right there's not enough information to make a definite judgment. I would also point out that I've made no reference or statement regrading law enforcement. Based on what was already related to the student's writing about the teacher's actions and:

"So I had this dream last night where I went into a building, pulled out two P90s and started shooting everyone, then had sex with the dead bodies. Well, not really, but it would be funny if I did."

I'm assuming the student wasn't very smart with the way he approached this writing exercise.

foolish_yeti wrote:Ummm....it's not bizarre if you actually read what I'm responding to.

Stopper wrote:No, I'd say it remains bizarre. There was no death threat list as far as the story told; there was nothing that amounted to a death threat list. Maybe you need to more precise in what you say.

mandalorian2298 wrote:If I ever get a job teaching Ethics to highschool kids, I certainly won't be giving them any assigments that start with (for example) "Listin all the people that you would like to kill"!

Since you obviously didn't take the time to look at what I was responding to I've provided it in bold for you...please direct your view upwards.

foolish_yeti wrote:

mandalorian2298 wrote:What if it turns out that he is right?

??? So what if a student goes on a shooting rampage in the school and names the teacher as their reason? That's a pretty far stretch for justification.

You missunderstood. I am not saying that it is a justification. I just think that the student was right to note the possible unwanted effects that teacher's actions could invoke.

foolish_yeti wrote:

mandalorian2298 wrote:The teacher was wrong to give out an assigment without thinking of the possible results.

When the teacher told the students not to judge or censor their work it is because in creative work often students have difficulty starting because they censor all their ideas and sit there and tell themselves they don't have any ideas. As a pre-writing, preliminary writing or brainstorming activity you just write and then edit it after. This is a valid educational strategy used in classrooms all over the world. This however does not excuse the student to write anything they want- obvious content filters should be applied- e.g. don't write something like Mein Kampf.... "but the teacher told me to write whatever I wanted" is not a valid justification.

So, your point is that students should be tought to censoring themselves is an their obligation, regardless of any other circumstances? God, no wander that kids crack up.

foolish_yeti wrote:

mandalorian2298 wrote:If I ever get a job teaching Ethics to highschool kids, I certainly won't be giving them any assigments that start with (for example) "Listin all the people that you would like to kill"!

How is a free writing exercise even remotely close to a death threat list?

Because it can have a negative effects, dispite it's potential for broadening student's horizonts. For instance, the "Death List" assigment, followed my a discussion, could teach students that they are not alone in their frustrations, that some of the things they do are equally frustrating to other people, that people that frustrate them have intentions different then those ascribed to them by the student etc.

foolish_yeti wrote:

Stopper wrote:I'm surprised that you seem to think that such open-ended creative writing is supposed to remain within "obvious" social constraints. God knows where journalism would be now if everyone thought that - oh no, wait, we already do know.

I wasn't aware that writing about killing your classmates and then having sex with them is creative. I would also argue that most people would agree that such violent necrophilia is not a good thing.

Besides the point that I don't see that it says anywhere in the link that he wrote about killing his own classmates - I don't see why a story about killing schoolchildren and having sex with them might not be creative.

I'm quite sure that most people would argue that such violent necrophilia is not a good thing, including me. But I'm not saying they shouldn't write about it. Where would Irvine Welsh be now with such constraints?

foolish_yeti wrote:

Stopper wrote:I'm even more surprised you don't seem to object to the schoolteacher concerned, who, given the little information we have, seems to have overreacted on one kid's assignment. At the very least, you seem to be ready to leap to the defence of the schooling and law enforcement system of a country you don't even live in - and on such little information, too.

Well besides the point that you're doing the same thing for the student based on the exact same information....you're right there's not enough information to make a definite judgment. But based on what was already related to the student's writing about the teacher's actions and:

"So I had this dream last night where I went into a building, pulled out two P90s and started shooting everyone, then had sex with the dead bodies. Well, not really, but it would be funny if I did."

I'm assuming the student wasn't very smart with the way he approached this writing exercise.

Yes, I am on the student's side here, because of the lack of information. After all, I believe that it's better a guilty man go free than an innocent man is imprisoned.

Still, I'm shocked that anyone should think it's OK for a student to potentially go to jail, and probably get his education fucked up, because of an assignment he wrote.

Snipped the rest, I already realised I fucked up there

<_< I think they're taking it too far. I argee that it may of been the teachers fault some, but I don't think this is anything worth, of jail.

mandalorian2298 wrote:So, your point is that students should be tought to censoring themselves is an their obligation, regardless of any other circumstances? God, no wander that kids crack up.

Everyone censors themselves. I would hope by high school someone would realize that killing people and having sex with them is not a funny joke to write about.

mandalorian2298 wrote:Because it can have a negative effects, dispite it's potential for broadening student's horizonts. For instance, the "Death List" assigment, followed my a discussion, could teach students that they are not alone in their frustrations, that some of the things they do are equally frustrating to other people, that people that frustrate them have intentions different then those ascribed to them by the student etc.

A great thing to teach students- a death threat list is a horrible way to do it and would for sure get you fired.

Stopper wrote:I'm quite sure that most people would argue that such violent necrophilia is not a good thing, including me. But I'm not saying they shouldn't write about it. Where would Irvine Welsh be now with such constraints?

Irvine Welsh and this kid are far different. As I said before it matters how you write about these topics. Irvine Welsh is an incredibly talented writer.

foolish_yeti wrote:Still, I'm shocked that anyone should think it's OK for a student to potentially go to jail, and probably get his education fucked up, because of an assignment he wrote.

Jail time is a possibility in the case, but I couldn't see that happening. Then again we don't have the full text of what he wrote. I'm not for ruining anyone's education- but I do believe there should be consequences for your actions. We can't really comment on the validity of the charges because we don't have access to the writing.

foolish_yeti wrote:

mandalorian2298 wrote:So, your point is that students should be tought to censoring themselves is an their obligation, regardless of any other circumstances? God, no wander that kids crack up.

Everyone censors themselves. I would hope by high school someone would realize that killing people and having sex with them is not a funny joke to write about.

The sociaty is TRYING to teach everyone to censore themselves. There are those, however, who are more difficult to brainwash. I like to call them: individuals. That student had balls to write what he was really thinking about. From a decent teacher, he would received an A. But, from the teacher who cares less about educating then about keeping his/her job, he got only a lesson in betrayal. Instead of taking responsibilty for his/her actions (like any honorable person would do) he/she chose to sacrifice a student. It disgusts me more then the act of necrophilia and much more the any witing.

mandalorian2298 wrote:The sociaty is TRYING to teach everyone to censore themselves. There are those, however, who are more difficult to brainwash. I like to call them: individuals.

You misunderstand what I am saying. You are correct that dominant powers in society try to get people to censor themselves- and for the most part (especially in America) they are very successful. What I am saying is beyond that influence everyone censors themselves. It's inevitable. This isn't "the man" breathing down your neck. It's brain development. Why don't people whip it out and masturbate when they see a hot woman in public? Oh, it's the man- bringing them down!

mandalorian2298 wrote:That student had balls to write what he was really thinking about. From a decent teacher, he would received an A. But, from the teacher who cares less about educating then about keeping his/her job, he got only a lesson in betrayal. Instead of taking responsibilty for his/her actions (like any honorable person would do) he/she chose to sacrifice a student. It disgusts me more then the act of necrophilia and much more the any witing.

I really think you're misconstruing the teacher's actions here. As an English teacher you can receive pieces of writing that may point to deep problems within a student. If you feel they are serious you bring them to people's attention. Anyone who has ever had any dealing with suicidal children, cutters, victims of physical and sexual abuse would not fault the teacher for being concerned here.

In this case the student just thought this was some big joke.

The entirety of the essay has been posted, along with the student's explanation for what he wrote. I read it, it's stream of consciousness. There's no real structure to it.

And I hate to play the race card, but do you think the fact that the guy looks like the psycho at VT may have had something to do with this?

http://www.dailyherald.com/story.asp?id=306827

I don't think the teacher was at fault here or her actions were uncalled for. The teacher basically showed the writing to their department head- after having been told to keep an eye out after threatening graffiti had appeared at the school. To me it would be a no brainer- pretty standard procedures in schools. We also do not know anything about the student's history or dealings with the teacher. The sense a teacher has of a student effect their decisions in matters such as this.

That being said I think the criminal charges are most likely not warranted- but I think schools themselves have to take issues like this very seriously... and who can blame them with historical precedents. I would say actions outside of the criminal justice system might be more appropriate.

As for the student- obviously a bonehead move. Should have expressed his frustration in a better fashion, especially after the entire country is on high alert after the VT shootings...but even without the VT shootings schools are pretty worried about violence. Especially the parts about shootings and necrophilia as well as a direct attack on the teacher and linking them to a school shooting. There are plenty of ways to use writing as a tool for rebellion- but plenty of wrong ways as well. This is simply a case of poor writing....I mean if you're going to broach topics such as this you have to be very careful.

I personally don't think anything will come of the charges....most likely some form of deal will be struck. I for sure think the student should have some consequences for this.

It is because he is asian.

Like the VT shooter Just j/k

Vincent M wrote:

It is because he is asian.

Like the VT shooter Just j/k

ya i alreayd got bashed for making racial jokes

Censorship is extremely dangerous to a thinking society.

I'm by no means defending the guy, just suggesting the punishment should fit the crime.

This has to be the biggest crock of shit that i have read since Bush's justification for invading Iraq. What astounds me the most is those of you (everyone but Stopper and Mandalorian) who are actually taking the side of the authorities. The guy was given an assignment that he followed for fucks sake! He's an insensitive asshole obviously, but if they start throwing insensitive assholes in jail, that will be the end of the republican party. When the state has this much power, that scares me a helluva lot more than an army of gun wielding psychos. I say give me liberty or give me death (now where have i heard that?). Some of you need to wake the f*ck up and remember what freedoms are important to this country.

b.k. barunt wrote:This has to be the biggest crock of shit that i have read since Bush's justification for invading Iraq. What astounds me the most is those of you (everyone but Stopper and Mandalorian) who are actually taking the side of the authorities. The guy was given an assignment that he followed for fucks sake! He's an insensitive asshole obviously, but if they start throwing insensitive assholes in jail, that will be the end of the republican party. When the state has this much power, that scares me a helluva lot more than an army of gun wielding psychos. I say give me liberty or give me death (now where have i heard that?). Some of you need to wake the f*ck up and remember what freedoms are important to this country.

First of all- I'm on record saying the charges are most likely unfounded- but they are understandable considering the state of fear of your population. If you want to fight a war for freedoms then look to your empire. This is a minor minor issue that takes away from the real issues at hand. You don't have freedom of speech or thought to begin with.

b.k. barunt wrote:This has to be the biggest crock of shit that i have read since Bush's justification for invading Iraq. What astounds me the most is those of you (everyone but Stopper and Mandalorian) who are actually taking the side of the authorities. The guy was given an assignment that he followed for fucks sake! He's an insensitive asshole obviously, but if they start throwing insensitive assholes in jail, that will be the end of the republican party. When the state has this much power, that scares me a helluva lot more than an army of gun wielding psychos. I say give me liberty or give me death (now where have i heard that?). Some of you need to wake the f*ck up and remember what freedoms are important to this country.

dude I respect your opion but in a high school setting I dont know it just isnt right

Vincent M wrote:

b.k. barunt wrote:This has to be the biggest crock of shit that i have read since Bush's justification for invading Iraq. What astounds me the most is those of you (everyone but Stopper and Mandalorian) who are actually taking the side of the authorities. The guy was given an assignment that he followed for fucks sake! He's an insensitive asshole obviously, but if they start throwing insensitive assholes in jail, that will be the end of the republican party. When the state has this much power, that scares me a helluva lot more than an army of gun wielding psychos. I say give me liberty or give me death (now where have i heard that?). Some of you need to wake the f*ck up and remember what freedoms are important to this country.

dude I respect your opion but in a high school setting I dont know it just isnt right

same with the fact that the VT Massacre happened only a week ago, so it should be a pretty touchy subject

Vincent M wrote:

b.k. barunt wrote:This has to be the biggest crock of shit that i have read since Bush's justification for invading Iraq. What astounds me the most is those of you (everyone but Stopper and Mandalorian) who are actually taking the side of the authorities. The guy was given an assignment that he followed for fucks sake! He's an insensitive asshole obviously, but if they start throwing insensitive assholes in jail, that will be the end of the republican party. When the state has this much power, that scares me a helluva lot more than an army of gun wielding psychos. I say give me liberty or give me death (now where have i heard that?). Some of you need to wake the f*ck up and remember what freedoms are important to this country.

dude I respect your opion but in a high school setting I dont know it just isnt right

BULLSHIT! You can't throw someone in jail for writing a fucking essay for high school that MET THE ASSIGNMENT! What the hell kind of country is this?! Communist Russia? China? We are not supposed to throw high school students in prison for writing in this country! What the hell happened to "land of the free?" How about the First Amendment!? We think a school massacre gives us the right to violate people's constitutional rights? I've said it before, it's BULLSHIT! Look what happened last time we let the government have free reign after a tragedy? Yep. We invaded Iraq. And look what a bad idea that was.

*Disclaimer: I admit to overeacting to a minor issue. However, it's just a sampling of a larger problem.

genius6 wrote:

Vincent M wrote:

b.k. barunt wrote:This has to be the biggest crock of shit that i have read since Bush's justification for invading Iraq. What astounds me the most is those of you (everyone but Stopper and Mandalorian) who are actually taking the side of the authorities. The guy was given an assignment that he followed for fucks sake! He's an insensitive asshole obviously, but if they start throwing insensitive assholes in jail, that will be the end of the republican party. When the state has this much power, that scares me a helluva lot more than an army of gun wielding psychos. I say give me liberty or give me death (now where have i heard that?). Some of you need to wake the f*ck up and remember what freedoms are important to this country.

dude I respect your opion but in a high school setting I dont know it just isnt right

BULLSHIT! You can't throw someone in jail for writing a fucking essay for high school that MET THE ASSIGNMENT! What the hell kind of country is this?! Communist Russia? China? We are not supposed to throw high school students in prison for writing in this country! What the hell happened to "land of the free?" How about the First Amendment!? We think a school massacre gives us the right to violate people's constitutional rights? I've said it before, it's BULLSHIT! Look what happened last time we let the government have free reign after a tragedy? Yep. We invaded Iraq. And look what a bad idea that was.

*Disclaimer: I admit to overeacting to a minor issue. However, it's just a sampling of a larger problem.

Yes what happen to the land of the free where you can express yourself with inevertant death threat through your creative writting class your right

Students in high school do not have the rights of an adult

This is a school setting COME ON

Vincent M wrote:

genius6 wrote:

Vincent M wrote:

b.k. barunt wrote:This has to be the biggest crock of shit that i have read since Bush's justification for invading Iraq. What astounds me the most is those of you (everyone but Stopper and Mandalorian) who are actually taking the side of the authorities. The guy was given an assignment that he followed for fucks sake! He's an insensitive asshole obviously, but if they start throwing insensitive assholes in jail, that will be the end of the republican party. When the state has this much power, that scares me a helluva lot more than an army of gun wielding psychos. I say give me liberty or give me death (now where have i heard that?). Some of you need to wake the f*ck up and remember what freedoms are important to this country.

dude I respect your opion but in a high school setting I dont know it just isnt right

BULLSHIT! You can't throw someone in jail for writing a fucking essay for high school that MET THE ASSIGNMENT! What the hell kind of country is this?! Communist Russia? China? We are not supposed to throw high school students in prison for writing in this country! What the hell happened to "land of the free?" How about the First Amendment!? We think a school massacre gives us the right to violate people's constitutional rights? I've said it before, it's BULLSHIT! Look what happened last time we let the government have free reign after a tragedy? Yep. We invaded Iraq. And look what a bad idea that was.

*Disclaimer: I admit to overeacting to a minor issue. However, it's just a sampling of a larger problem.

Yes what happen to the land of the free where you can express yourself with inevertant death threat through your creative writting class your right

Students in high school do not have the rights of an adult

This is a school setting COME ON

Students in high school do not have the same rights as an adult? That's crap. They're still citizens of the U.S.A. They can not just be arbitrarily thrown in jail. And from what I read, he didn't make any death threats.

I love how people latch onto their "freedom of speech" when issues like this arise but never stop to question if they had it in the first place. I'd agree that the schooling institutions infringe (to understate it) on freedom of speech and thought- but it's much more covert than this, and hardly ever questioned.

foolish_yeti wrote:I love how people latch onto their "freedom of speech" when issues like this arise but never stop to question if they had it in the first place. I'd agree that the schooling institutions infringe (to understate it) on freedom of speech and thought- but it's much more covert than this, and hardly ever questioned.

I agree, and I could go on forever about censorship in the classroom. I was simply responding to a single, isolated issue.

genius6 wrote:

foolish_yeti wrote:I love how people latch onto their "freedom of speech" when issues like this arise but never stop to question if they had it in the first place. I'd agree that the schooling institutions infringe (to understate it) on freedom of speech and thought- but it's much more covert than this, and hardly ever questioned.

I agree, and I could go on forever about censorship in the classroom. I was simply responding to a single, isolated issue.

It's not even really censorship in the common use of the word, though. It's much more deeply ingrained than someone deciding what you can and cannot write or think.

Please clarify. Explain how we do not have freedom of speech - you're being rather vague.