Conquer Club

In my opinion, for all its value and beauty as a purely utopian, academic concept (and I admire greatly the works of great socialist scholars as such), I find it hard to understand how anybody could conceive that such a grand experiment would work on such a grand scale as was attempted in the 20th century. Even Marx (to the best of my appreciation of his oeuvre) intended communism to be implemented in small communes (ergo, communism!) The grand scale of the USSR and PRC made it very hard for communism to succeed. To each his own.

Anarchy Ninja wrote:

everywhere116 wrote:Uh huh. Let's go down to the nearest Communist country, Cuba. Castro seems to be very greedy, with his people in poverty. Is that utopian? Let's head down to Miami with many people who have escaped from Cuba. We asked them if they want to live with Castro. They said:

"No! No deseo vivir con Castro! Deseo matar a Castro! "

Translated, this means "No! I do not want to live with Castro! I want to kill Castro!"

You are a fool to think Communism is better than Capitalism. Under Capitalism we have the greatest society in the world with many, many technological advancements with much wealth.

my god have you read anything i wrote at all!? NO TRUE COMMUNIST SOCIETY HAS EVER BEEN IMPLEMENTED IN SOCIETY TODAY IT HAS ALL BEEN SOCIALISM, MARXIST, MARXIST-LENINIST, MAOISTS. THE LIST GOES ON. YOU OBVIOUSLY DONT UNDERSTAND WHAT COMMUNISM IS SO HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY BE OPPOSED TO SOMETHING YOU DONT UNDERSTAND? "GIVE WHAT YOU CAN TAKE ONLY WHAT YOU NEED". DO YOU NO WHAT THAT MEANS? OR DO I NEED TO EXPLAIN IT IN ALL CAPITALS AND BOLD AS WELL?

That's because true communism will never be implemented, just as true capitalism never will. But the modified 'real world' way of communism is way worse than its capitalist counterpart

everywhere116 wrote:Anarchy, tell me one thing. If everyone shares the resources, why would they work? If the government takes care of them they have no desire to do thier best. And when everyone does this you have to pay useless workers you cant fire, and your tresury will be depleted. See: The Reagan Arms Buildup.

why would they work you ask, because they are not fat lazy slobs thats why

foolish_yeti wrote:I don't think we've seen anything that would show us that socialism is inherently flawed- can anyone think of an example?

The basic fallibilty of human nature?

foolish_yeti wrote:

DIRESTRAITS wrote:I know the principle of communism BUT IT HAS NEVER WORKED!!!!!!! In the words of Albert Einstein " The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results"

To be fair, what most people understand to be communism is what the US government has labeled communism- e.g.- anything not in line with capitalism. I don't think we've seen anything that would show us that socialism is inherently flawed- can anyone think of an example? Often socialist endeavors were given that name but were truly just despots ruling. Capitalism, on the other hand, has been around long enough to prove itself unsustainable.

please explain

spurgistan wrote:In my opinion, for all its value and beauty as a purely utopian, academic concept (and I admire greatly the works of great socialist scholars as such), I find it hard to understand how anybody could conceive that such a grand experiment would work on such a grand scale as was attempted in the 20th century. Even Marx (to the best of my appreciation of his oeuvre) intended communism to be implemented in small communes (ergo, communism!) The grand scale of the USSR and PRC made it very hard for communism to succeed. To each his own.

exactly i have no doubt that communism could work if it was in a small area perhaps a town. it is sad that such greed is everywhere making even that unlikely.

Anarchy Ninja wrote:

everywhere116 wrote:Anarchy, tell me one thing. If everyone shares the resources, why would they work? If the government takes care of them they have no desire to do thier best. And when everyone does this you have to pay useless workers you cant fire, and your tresury will be depleted. See: The Reagan Arms Buildup.

why would they work you ask, because they are not fat lazy slobs thats why

so by being in a communist society you are immediately industrious and hardworking?

spurgistan wrote:In my opinion, for all its value and beauty as a purely utopian, academic concept (and I admire greatly the works of great socialist scholars as such), I find it hard to understand how anybody could conceive that such a grand experiment would work on such a grand scale as was attempted in the 20th century. Even Marx (to the best of my appreciation of his oeuvre) intended communism to be implemented in small communes (ergo, communism!) The grand scale of the USSR and PRC made it very hard for communism to succeed. To each his own.

Wow, that puts it into perspective and I think I can see how it would work in small communities or in the kibbutz/favellas/ghettos.
Awesome post!

Anarchy Ninja wrote:

everywhere116 wrote:Anarchy, tell me one thing. If everyone shares the resources, why would they work? If the government takes care of them they have no desire to do thier best. And when everyone does this you have to pay useless workers you cant fire, and your tresury will be depleted. See: The Reagan Arms Buildup.

why would they work you ask, because they are not fat lazy slobs thats why

That isnt a reason. A reason would be financial rewards for doing better than everyone else. Look, if you have five workers who work the quota and do nothing more but one worker who works double the quota, under communism they would be paid the same. The person working double is hosed. In capitalism, tht person would be paid twice as much, and when the others see how much they will get paid, you will have five workers working double instead of the inevitable zero under communism.

Anarchy Ninja wrote:

everywhere116 wrote:Anarchy, tell me one thing. If everyone shares the resources, why would they work? If the government takes care of them they have no desire to do thier best. And when everyone does this you have to pay useless workers you cant fire, and your tresury will be depleted. See: The Reagan Arms Buildup.

why would they work you ask, because they are not fat lazy slobs thats why

Yeah, ok. If people don't have to work hard to obtain something, THEY WON'T. There would be no incentive to give your best effort.

Colaalone wrote:

Anarchy Ninja wrote:

everywhere116 wrote:Anarchy, tell me one thing. If everyone shares the resources, why would they work? If the government takes care of them they have no desire to do thier best. And when everyone does this you have to pay useless workers you cant fire, and your tresury will be depleted. See: The Reagan Arms Buildup.

why would they work you ask, because they are not fat lazy slobs thats why

Yeah, ok. If people don't have to work hard to obtain something, THEY WON'T. There would be no incentive to give your best effort.

A basic shortening of what I said. good job.

fast-posted, hoorah!

Numia Kereru wrote:

spurgistan wrote:In my opinion, for all its value and beauty as a purely utopian, academic concept (and I admire greatly the works of great socialist scholars as such), I find it hard to understand how anybody could conceive that such a grand experiment would work on such a grand scale as was attempted in the 20th century. Even Marx (to the best of my appreciation of his oeuvre) intended communism to be implemented in small communes (ergo, communism!) The grand scale of the USSR and PRC made it very hard for communism to succeed. To each his own.

Wow, that puts it into perspective and I think I can see how it would work in small communities or in the kibbutz/favellas/ghettos.
Awesome post!

How? Lets ask the Cuban immagrants in Miami, who fled to get away from communism.

DIRESTRAITS wrote:

Anarchy Ninja wrote:

everywhere116 wrote:Anarchy, tell me one thing. If everyone shares the resources, why would they work? If the government takes care of them they have no desire to do thier best. And when everyone does this you have to pay useless workers you cant fire, and your tresury will be depleted. See: The Reagan Arms Buildup.

why would they work you ask, because they are not fat lazy slobs thats why

so by being in a communist society you are immediately industrious and hardworking?

no its just that people have grown up in this greedy and corupt society that to change their minds to anything other then 'make more money so I may be more comfortable then the everyone else' mentality is depressingly improbable. the problem is the longer time goes on the more and more impossible these leftist ideals become. it would have been possible long ago when everyone actually worked. im sure i could round up enough people who would be willing to take part in a utopian society all though perhaps only enough for a small town

Anarchy Ninja wrote:

DIRESTRAITS wrote:

Anarchy Ninja wrote:

everywhere116 wrote:Anarchy, tell me one thing. If everyone shares the resources, why would they work? If the government takes care of them they have no desire to do thier best. And when everyone does this you have to pay useless workers you cant fire, and your tresury will be depleted. See: The Reagan Arms Buildup.

why would they work you ask, because they are not fat lazy slobs thats why

so by being in a communist society you are immediately industrious and hardworking?

no its just that people have grown up in this greedy and corupt society that to change their minds to anything other then 'make more money so I may be more comfortable then the everyone else' mentality is depressingly improbable. the problem is the longer time goes on the more and more impossible these leftist ideals become. it would have been possible long ago when everyone actually worked. im sure i could round up enough people who would be willing to take part in a utopian society all though perhaps only enough for a small town

people are naturally 'greedy'. It's one of the basest of human instincts, and one which has helped us survive throughout history

everywhere116 wrote:

Colaalone wrote:

Anarchy Ninja wrote:

everywhere116 wrote:Anarchy, tell me one thing. If everyone shares the resources, why would they work? If the government takes care of them they have no desire to do thier best. And when everyone does this you have to pay useless workers you cant fire, and your tresury will be depleted. See: The Reagan Arms Buildup.

why would they work you ask, because they are not fat lazy slobs thats why

Yeah, ok. If people don't have to work hard to obtain something, THEY WON'T. There would be no incentive to give your best effort.

A basic shortening of what I said. good job.

why strive? BECAUSE NOT EVERYONE IS LAZY OR GREEDY!! i would strive i see no reason not to. i strive not to be better then everyone else but to make myself a better person, this is rare in todays culture

Anarchy Ninja wrote:

everywhere116 wrote:

Colaalone wrote:

Anarchy Ninja wrote:

everywhere116 wrote:Anarchy, tell me one thing. If everyone shares the resources, why would they work? If the government takes care of them they have no desire to do thier best. And when everyone does this you have to pay useless workers you cant fire, and your tresury will be depleted. See: The Reagan Arms Buildup.

why would they work you ask, because they are not fat lazy slobs thats why

Yeah, ok. If people don't have to work hard to obtain something, THEY WON'T. There would be no incentive to give your best effort.

A basic shortening of what I said. good job.

why strive? BECAUSE NOT EVERYONE IS LAZY OR GREEDY!! i would strive i see no reason not to. i strive not to be better then everyone else but to make myself a better person, this is rare in todays culture

EXACTLY! Hence why a it wouldn't work.

DIRESTRAITS wrote:

Anarchy Ninja wrote:

DIRESTRAITS wrote:

Anarchy Ninja wrote:

everywhere116 wrote:Anarchy, tell me one thing. If everyone shares the resources, why would they work? If the government takes care of them they have no desire to do thier best. And when everyone does this you have to pay useless workers you cant fire, and your tresury will be depleted. See: The Reagan Arms Buildup.

why would they work you ask, because they are not fat lazy slobs thats why

so by being in a communist society you are immediately industrious and hardworking?

no its just that people have grown up in this greedy and corupt society that to change their minds to anything other then 'make more money so I may be more comfortable then the everyone else' mentality is depressingly improbable. the problem is the longer time goes on the more and more impossible these leftist ideals become. it would have been possible long ago when everyone actually worked. im sure i could round up enough people who would be willing to take part in a utopian society all though perhaps only enough for a small town

people are naturally 'greedy'. It's one of the basest of human instincts, and one which has helped us survive throughout history

greed didnt help us survive it helped people to expand and conquest crushing coutless other people under their feet in the process

Anarchy Ninja wrote:

DIRESTRAITS wrote:

Anarchy Ninja wrote:

everywhere116 wrote:Anarchy, tell me one thing. If everyone shares the resources, why would they work? If the government takes care of them they have no desire to do thier best. And when everyone does this you have to pay useless workers you cant fire, and your tresury will be depleted. See: The Reagan Arms Buildup.

why would they work you ask, because they are not fat lazy slobs thats why

so by being in a communist society you are immediately industrious and hardworking?

no its just that people have grown up in this greedy and corupt society that to change their minds to anything other then 'make more money so I may be more comfortable then the everyone else' mentality is depressingly improbable. the problem is the longer time goes on the more and more impossible these leftist ideals become. it would have been possible long ago when everyone actually worked. im sure i could round up enough people who would be willing to take part in a utopian society all though perhaps only enough for a small town

And how do you get more money? By working for it, that's how! And I am sure your small town will fail for the same reasons the USSR failed. And I am sure that after one year you will have to build a wall to keep them in.
(You can call it the New Berlin Wall)

Colaalone wrote:

Anarchy Ninja wrote:

everywhere116 wrote:

Colaalone wrote:

Anarchy Ninja wrote:

everywhere116 wrote:Anarchy, tell me one thing. If everyone shares the resources, why would they work? If the government takes care of them they have no desire to do thier best. And when everyone does this you have to pay useless workers you cant fire, and your tresury will be depleted. See: The Reagan Arms Buildup.

why would they work you ask, because they are not fat lazy slobs thats why

Yeah, ok. If people don't have to work hard to obtain something, THEY WON'T. There would be no incentive to give your best effort.

A basic shortening of what I said. good job.

why strive? BECAUSE NOT EVERYONE IS LAZY OR GREEDY!! i would strive i see no reason not to. i strive not to be better then everyone else but to make myself a better person, this is rare in todays culture

EXACTLY! Hence why a it wouldn't work.

hence why it wouldnt work on a large scale, rare doesnt mean non-existant

Anarchy Ninja wrote:

DIRESTRAITS wrote:

Anarchy Ninja wrote:

DIRESTRAITS wrote:

Anarchy Ninja wrote:

everywhere116 wrote:Anarchy, tell me one thing. If everyone shares the resources, why would they work? If the government takes care of them they have no desire to do thier best. And when everyone does this you have to pay useless workers you cant fire, and your tresury will be depleted. See: The Reagan Arms Buildup.

why would they work you ask, because they are not fat lazy slobs thats why

so by being in a communist society you are immediately industrious and hardworking?

no its just that people have grown up in this greedy and corupt society that to change their minds to anything other then 'make more money so I may be more comfortable then the everyone else' mentality is depressingly improbable. the problem is the longer time goes on the more and more impossible these leftist ideals become. it would have been possible long ago when everyone actually worked. im sure i could round up enough people who would be willing to take part in a utopian society all though perhaps only enough for a small town

people are naturally 'greedy'. It's one of the basest of human instincts, and one which has helped us survive throughout history

greed didnt help us survive it helped people to expand and conquest crushing coutless other people under their feet in the process

Hence why we survive. Look, your outnumbered 4 to 1, give it up.

Anarchy Ninja wrote:

DIRESTRAITS wrote:

Anarchy Ninja wrote:

DIRESTRAITS wrote:

Anarchy Ninja wrote:

everywhere116 wrote:Anarchy, tell me one thing. If everyone shares the resources, why would they work? If the government takes care of them they have no desire to do thier best. And when everyone does this you have to pay useless workers you cant fire, and your tresury will be depleted. See: The Reagan Arms Buildup.

why would they work you ask, because they are not fat lazy slobs thats why

so by being in a communist society you are immediately industrious and hardworking?

no its just that people have grown up in this greedy and corupt society that to change their minds to anything other then 'make more money so I may be more comfortable then the everyone else' mentality is depressingly improbable. the problem is the longer time goes on the more and more impossible these leftist ideals become. it would have been possible long ago when everyone actually worked. im sure i could round up enough people who would be willing to take part in a utopian society all though perhaps only enough for a small town

people are naturally 'greedy'. It's one of the basest of human instincts, and one which has helped us survive throughout history

greed didnt help us survive it helped people to expand and conquest crushing coutless other people under their feet in the process

Yes. It helped early man survive. People take care of themselves first. For communism to work Human nature would have to be changed

DIRESTRAITS wrote:

Anarchy Ninja wrote:

DIRESTRAITS wrote:

Anarchy Ninja wrote:

DIRESTRAITS wrote:

Anarchy Ninja wrote:

everywhere116 wrote:Anarchy, tell me one thing. If everyone shares the resources, why would they work? If the government takes care of them they have no desire to do thier best. And when everyone does this you have to pay useless workers you cant fire, and your tresury will be depleted. See: The Reagan Arms Buildup.

why would they work you ask, because they are not fat lazy slobs thats why

so by being in a communist society you are immediately industrious and hardworking?

no its just that people have grown up in this greedy and corupt society that to change their minds to anything other then 'make more money so I may be more comfortable then the everyone else' mentality is depressingly improbable. the problem is the longer time goes on the more and more impossible these leftist ideals become. it would have been possible long ago when everyone actually worked. im sure i could round up enough people who would be willing to take part in a utopian society all though perhaps only enough for a small town

people are naturally 'greedy'. It's one of the basest of human instincts, and one which has helped us survive throughout history

greed didnt help us survive it helped people to expand and conquest crushing coutless other people under their feet in the process

Yes. It helped early man survive. People take care of themselves first. For communism to work Human nature would have to be changed

And the laws of economics.

Well yes, in societies we rigidly define as being "Marxist", [side note - all socialists are not Marxists! There are many socialists, of which Marx is one. Although I guess most of us are, as he's the most famous by far ]And certainly the Soviets and Chinese were never anything resembing what Marx] proper capitalist-style motivation is sorely lacking. However, seeing as how Marx's entire theories were based on the fact that capitalism was inherantly jinxed against the little guy, it was supposed that the workers would not need their bourgeois motivation, as they obviously do.

Colaalone wrote:

foolish_yeti wrote:I don't think we've seen anything that would show us that socialism is inherently flawed- can anyone think of an example?

The basic fallibilty of human nature?

Not getting into debating human nature and inherent human flaws- this would be a constant in any social system, not just socialism.

Personally I think it's bung, though- humans have survived much longer on a tribal system than we have under capitalism- much much much longer.

DIRESTRAITS wrote:please explain

I'm guessing you want an explanation for how capitalism has shown to be unsustainable?

Well I don't want to go a a huge rant here- but for a single example- one could take a look at something like ecological footprints. As it stands now capitalist societies are living way beyond their, and the planets means. The only reason they are still standing is because they have annexed the resources of other countries. At current population levels, it's estimated there's around 1.8h of useable land per person to survive off of. The States is using close to 10h per person. Any system based on continual growth is just not sustainable- eventually you hit the wall.