Conquer Club

It looks like the decline started at the same time as the Iraq War. coincidence?

The Bison King thinks not.

The Bison King wrote:I feel comfortable blaming Bush for spending Billions and billions of dollars starting 2 expensive wars. We'd probably have a lot more money if we didn't waste it on killing people.



Yes to Iraq, no question. No to Afghanistan...we needed to do something there, no question.

Agreed.

I admit that I don't know much about economics, but I heard once that it takes 4 to 5 years to feel the ramifications of any economic policy. Does anyone know how true this is? It seems like it could very well be the case because of how slow legislature is and then the affect has to trickle from business to business and finally to the household wallet. If this is the case then it might very well be true that much of the economic crisis could be Bush's fault.

I'm not qualified to say that this is true but I'd like to know what people think.

The Bison King wrote:I admit that I don't know much about economics, but I heard once that it takes 4 to 5 years to feel the ramifications of any economic policy. Does anyone know how true this is? It seems like it could very well be the case because of how slow legislature is and then the affect has to trickle from business to business and finally to the household wallet. If this is the case then it might very well be true that much of the economic crisis could be Bush's fault.

I'm not qualified to say that this is true but I'd like to know what people think.

It can depend (and great point). I have always figured 18-24 months. If it took 5 years, that means the roaring 90's belongs to Bush Sr.

maasman wrote:

BigBallinStalin wrote:So anybody going to counter Bison's point about those two wars?

I think the wars are a part of last decades problems. Another is the fact that we, as a nation, can't get along anymore or make fair compromises. Also, I think people also overestimate the amount of power the president has in general in shaping the economy. The president may have all the best ideas, but if congress won't pass it, it's worthless, especially since every member of congress wants whats best for the voters that got them into office and not necessarily the nation as a whole.

I agree with the idea maas is trying to talk about as a loss of compromise. It's only been in about the last 20 years that extreme partisanship has become the norm in Congress. Whether or not this is Bush's fault is not as clear cut but certainly the predecessors have left Obama with a deeply entrenched Congress with an "us vs. them" mentality that basically leads to bureaucratic gridlock.

In terms of the economic situation, it's true that the president has less control than the Federal Reserve. Certainly he can present his ideas and suggestions, but the Fed holds the keys to the interest rate, money supply, and the core essentials of the economy. That said, I believe Bush was the one who passed deregulation bills (not sure of the specifics) that allowed banks to make the risky subprime and derivatives investments. Also, I also put the blame on Bush for a lack of oversight on the oil spill in the Gulf. Of course it's Obama's fault for selling out his beliefs and supporting drilling only to have it blow up literally in his face. But it was Bush's lack of overhaul of the regulatory organizations that allowed the spill to occur.

I actually hate the blame game. It does no service to the problem at hand. Besides the American people being at fault...

My Official Line: It's all the the politicians fault, Republican and Democrat. Throw the bums out!

A lot of our current problems go back to Reagan. Reagan came about because of problems prior to him.. etc.
However, a lot of things could have been done by every president before and since. G.W. Bush is more notable to us because he is most recent and was here when things were building to a true crisis and yet STILL just made things worse.

Obama.. is very far from perfect, particularly when it comes to specific secrecy issues. However, overall, he has done more for our country than any recent president. He is blamed for not entirely fixing a complete train wreck. Well, he is at least admitting the wreck and cleaning it up a bit. If he hasn't utterly ensured we'll have no future train wrecks and brought the dead back to life... its because he is human, not superman.

At least Obama ADMITS he is not superman. I am not sure Bush W. ever got that far (or Bill Clinton, Bush sr, for that matter!)!
And as for the Republicans... they are too intent on feeding their own egos, power to even try to step down and do things that might actually benefit the rest of us. the Tea Partiers are too busy both fighting amongst themselves AND taking down "the other guy" to bother with real details of how to actually FIX things. (sorry, "no new taxes" is a rally cry, not a solution!).

So.. either we get Democrats or we get garbage. Sadly, I think the religious right is intent on bringing us garbage. But then, that will only bring the end times that much sooner, so it's all good. .. isn't it?

PLAYER57832 wrote:So.. either we get Democrats or we get garbage.

Of course, the Republicans say that either we get Republicans or we get garbage. And the Tea Partiers say that we either get Tea Partiers or we get garbage.

Looks like we're just going to continue getting garbage, to me.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Obama.. is very far from perfect, particularly when it comes to specific secrecy issues. However, overall, he has done more for our country than any recent president. He is blamed for not entirely fixing a complete train wreck. Well, he is at least admitting the wreck and cleaning it up a bit. If he hasn't utterly ensured we'll have no future train wrecks and brought the dead back to life... its because he is human, not superman.

Sometimes I have to wonder, just what is the color of the sky on the planet you come from? Obama has no clue as to the cause of the tain wreck, he has no clue as to the solution to the train wreck and he has no solution to the train wreck. He has, on the other hand, never let an opportunity go to waste. Economic Crisis? Let's borrow massively outrageous sums to give to the UNIONS (who love the Democrats by giving them campaign contributions). Let's take over the auto companies so that the rightful owners of the debt (the secured bond holders) can give money to the unions (who were unsecured bond holders) and if they dare object I'll use the power of the Presidency to stare at them and call them names. Then let's implement the biggest health care boondoggle in the history of the United States (by basically raping the Medicare system).

What part of having a president with the greatest unemployment rate for a nation NOT IN RECESSION don't you understand? I think the proper term is FUBAR. He took a minor recession, and basically screwed the nation so badly that it will take decades to recover (blaming every other person in the universe ... note he's about to throw even Pelosi under the bus ... because that is the CHICAGO WAY).

NO, the fault does not like in Bush, nor in the stars. This is Obama's baby. It lies with HIM, and only HIM.

Woodruff wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:So.. either we get Democrats or we get garbage.

Of course, the Republicans say that either we get Republicans or we get garbage. And the Tea Partiers say that we either get Tea Partiers or we get garbage.

Looks like we're just going to continue getting garbage, to me.

Well, the Republican's track record is currently much worse. Better than absolutely terrible is not saying much, but it is at least a step in the correct direction.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Well, the Republican's track record is currently much worse. Better than absolutely terrible is not saying much, but it is at least a step in the correct direction.

All in all the Republican track record is better than the Democratic tack record. And the Democratic steps are always in the WRONG direction. (WRONG: Where Republicans Ordinairly Never Go).

tzor wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:Obama.. is very far from perfect, particularly when it comes to specific secrecy issues. However, overall, he has done more for our country than any recent president. He is blamed for not entirely fixing a complete train wreck. Well, he is at least admitting the wreck and cleaning it up a bit. If he hasn't utterly ensured we'll have no future train wrecks and brought the dead back to life... its because he is human, not superman.

Sometimes I have to wonder, just what is the color of the sky on the planet you come from? Obama has no clue as to the cause of the tain wreck, he has no clue as to the solution to the train wreck and he has no solution to the train wreck.

Well, we came OUT of the recession under his watch. Too bad, but if you want to play the blame game, then it goes both ways.

tzor wrote: He has, on the other hand, never let an opportunity go to waste. Economic Crisis? Let's borrow massively outrageous sums to give to the UNIONS (who love the Democrats by giving them campaign contributions). Let's take over the auto companies so that the rightful owners of the debt (the secured bond holders) can give money to the unions (who were unsecured bond holders) and if they dare object I'll use the power of the Presidency to stare at them and call them names.

I see, so according to you the unions are the bogeyman, the reason we are in this mess? Can't say I like modern unions all that much, but I would rather they than corporations.

Besides that, unions are not that big a player any longer.

tzor wrote:Then let's implement the biggest health care boondoggle in the history of the United States (by basically raping the Medicare system).

Raping the medicare system? How about putting a tiny bit of control onto insurers. But you are right about one thing. It is a bit of a boondoggle, did not go far enough.

tzor wrote:What part of having a president with the greatest unemployment rate for a nation NOT IN RECESSION don't you understand? I think the proper term is FUBAR. He took a minor recession, and basically screwed the nation so badly that it will take decades to recover (blaming every other person in the universe ... note he's about to throw even Pelosi under the bus ... because that is the CHICAGO WAY).

Here it is again "sure, we know the Republicans caused this mess, but Obama did not immediately make it all go away, so let's run him out on a rail". TWO years versus 8... seems the REAL problem is that Obama IS doing what he was supposed to.. and too many bigwigs just don't like it. (not that I think Obama has gone far enough, but he did more than the Republicans ever did in a positive direction).

tzor wrote:NO, the fault does not like in Bush, nor in the stars. This is Obama's baby. It lies with HIM, and only HIM.

Brilliant logic. Don't blame they guy who was here for 8 years, who was given a great economy, a world without major conflict, and led led us into 2 wars, saw us into a recession so deep it only barely escaped being a depression, the guy who did away with so many environmental protections and regulations its hard to even begin to describe them all... don't blame HIM.. no, you want to blame the guy who was in office only 2 years, who inherited an economic disaster, 2 wars, etc.... blame him for not fixing in 2 years what it took over 8 years to create?

No, Obama has not done all I wish he would have, but he is many steps above G.W. Bush!

tzor wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:Well, the Republican's track record is currently much worse. Better than absolutely terrible is not saying much, but it is at least a step in the correct direction.

All in all the Republican track record is better than the Democratic tack record.

You would rather we had a Depression than a recession? Because that is EXACTLY where economists had us going.

tzor wrote:And the Democratic steps are always in the WRONG direction. (WRONG: Where Republicans Ordinairly Never Go).

If you like increasing the income divide, taking more and more from average folks and the children of the future so those few can have all the wealth they want.. sure.

OR, if you are one of those who seem to think that as long as homosexuals aren't allowed to participate in our society and abortion doctors are prohibited from practicing, the world will be just fine...

Then sure. For the rest of us... NO.

tzor wrote:NO, the fault does not like in Bush, nor in the stars. This is Obama's baby. It lies with HIM, and only HIM.

Your rationality is in serious question.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

Woodruff wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:So.. either we get Democrats or we get garbage.

Of course, the Republicans say that either we get Republicans or we get garbage. And the Tea Partiers say that we either get Tea Partiers or we get garbage.

Looks like we're just going to continue getting garbage, to me.

Well, the Republican's track record is currently much worse.

No, it really isn't.

tzor wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:Well, the Republican's track record is currently much worse. Better than absolutely terrible is not saying much, but it is at least a step in the correct direction.

All in all the Republican track record is better than the Democratic tack record.

No, it really isn't.

Phatscotty wrote:I am wondering if I have even heard the case actually made in any detail as to whether or not this is all Bushes Fault. Obama just does the soundbyte, as most politicians do.

My belief is that most of the economies problems are due to the real estate correction. With lower prices, there are lower taxes, and then cuts to services or higher taxes (usually both. My taxes went up here and my paved road out front is now gravel). The ripple effect from real estate should be pretty obvious to most. I just would like to actually hear a detailed, fact based explanation as to how this is Bushes fault.

It's the entire country's fault. Bush played his part though, as he went along with the spending spree. This view that people are entitled to social benefits funded by others bankrupts and can't be sustained.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Well, we came OUT of the recession under his watch. Too bad, but if you want to play the blame game, then it goes both ways.

Tell that to the people who are still unemployed.

PLAYER57832 wrote:I see, so according to you the unions are the bogeyman, the reason we are in this mess?

Well they are the reason why GM was in its mess.
They are the reason why many states are in a financial mess.
They are the reason (the teacher's unions specifically) why local property taxes are so high.
(Elementary education where I live now costs more than the typical college tuition on a per student basis!)

PLAYER57832 wrote:Raping the medicare system? How about putting a tiny bit of control onto insurers. But you are right about one thing. It is a bit of a boondoggle, did not go far enough.

Very little; few of the real problems in the system were addressed. A few got plastered over with bandaids that will probably make the system worse in the long run. Symptoms were addressed, not the root causs. Where it went it should not have gone and where it did not go it should have gone with gusto.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Here it is again "sure, we know the Republicans caused this mess, but Obama did not immediately make it all go away, so let's run him out on a rail".

There you go again, the "Republicans" did not cause this mess. What part of this don't you get. In fact, a significant portion of this mess is due to Califorina Air Head Liberals and your attempts to stop all development in a place where everyone wanted to live (your state). The rest was due to the Democratic wonder twins, Frank and Dodd. (The latter comes from across the Sound, so I blame my Uncle who lives there.)

By the way, Bush wanted to audit Fannie and Freddie, but the wonder twins started a sit in protest of the EVIL BUSH.

The seeds of the 2008 collapse were planted a very long time ago. It all started in the year of our Lord, 1977 with the Community Reinvestment Act. Frank's fingerprints are all over the financial fiasco - The Boston Globe 9/28/2008.

tzor wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:Here it is again "sure, we know the Republicans caused this mess, but Obama did not immediately make it all go away, so let's run him out on a rail".

There you go again, the "Republicans" did not cause this mess. What part of this don't you get. In fact, a significant portion of this mess is due to Califorina Air Head Liberals

You two are like two sides of the same disgusting, shitty coin.

Phatscotty wrote:I am wondering if I have even heard the case actually made in any detail as to whether or not this is all Bushes Fault. Obama just does the soundbyte, as most politicians do.

My belief is that most of the economies problems are due to the real estate correction. With lower prices, there are lower taxes, and then cuts to services or higher taxes (usually both. My taxes went up here and my paved road out front is now gravel). The ripple effect from real estate should be pretty obvious to most. I just would like to actually hear a detailed, fact based explanation as to how this is Bushes fault.

One, a tax break was given to the ultra rich as their general incomes rose 100% while the rest of the nation rose around 6%.

Two, oil prices spiked at the same time the fed was raised which was the same timing as the begining of the foreclosures. Do you honestly think your beloved president who was an oil man himself, put into power by oil men had nothing to do with the oil prices going up, and the record profits for oil companies when the country itself was entering its worst decline possibly ever. I know someone who spent an extra $70000 on gas prices. He could have employed two people for a year with that money, instead it went into the upholstery of a leer jet.

Three, the two wars have cost a trillion dollars.

Four, the tax cut for SUVs, the biggest gas guzzlers there were, drove up demand for the SUVs and other highest gas using vehicles. The electric car was politically killed in California at the same time. Then the Gas prices went up unchecked, and for no real reason whatsoever, as the oil companies continued to take tax cuts and grant money for pretending to research their alternative replacement to oil. Then, the car companies had made all these SUVs and larger vehicles, and the gas prices made them obsolete, so they essentially had nothing to sell. Now, you can hardly blame Bush 100% because the execs fell into his trap and the trap of his oil buddies, but sure enough the car companies all nearly failed and needed to get bought out. Now, had they not been lured into selling the SUV's, which make no mistake, they were, they could have focused on building the more efficient cars, which of course would have been far more competitive. Instead, they had nothing to sell. Again, the execs take as much blame as anyone, but Bush and his policies certainly sent them down this road. And again we are paying for it.

When he took office there was a budget surplus. He spent it, borrowed more, cut taxes, and his number two guy, or more commonly refered to as his puppeteer, went on record saying, deficits dont matter.

At the end of Bushs reign, the banks and economic system in America was in freefall and in danger of collapsing altogether.

Yes, Bush is very much at fault, and not because of failure, but because of success, which was to fleece the common man and line the bedsheets of the richest of the riches bedsheets with it. Say what you will of Bush, he did a great job. He set out with a plan and achieved that plan. Unfortunately, it wasnt what he was hired to do, or took the oath of the office for, but thats our fault for not being smart enough to see it. I can say however that I did. I still remember saying I dont trust the guy one bit before his first election. I have never wished I was more wrong.

i blame the top of the pyramid

tzor wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:Obama.. is very far from perfect, particularly when it comes to specific secrecy issues. However, overall, he has done more for our country than any recent president. He is blamed for not entirely fixing a complete train wreck. Well, he is at least admitting the wreck and cleaning it up a bit. If he hasn't utterly ensured we'll have no future train wrecks and brought the dead back to life... its because he is human, not superman.

Sometimes I have to wonder, just what is the color of the sky on the planet you come from? Obama has no clue as to the cause of the tain wreck, he has no clue as to the solution to the train wreck and he has no solution to the train wreck. He has, on the other hand, never let an opportunity go to waste. Economic Crisis? Let's borrow massively outrageous sums to give to the UNIONS (who love the Democrats by giving them campaign contributions). Let's take over the auto companies so that the rightful owners of the debt (the secured bond holders) can give money to the unions (who were unsecured bond holders) and if they dare object I'll use the power of the Presidency to stare at them and call them names. Then let's implement the biggest health care boondoggle in the history of the United States (by basically raping the Medicare system).

What part of having a president with the greatest unemployment rate for a nation NOT IN RECESSION don't you understand? I think the proper term is FUBAR. He took a minor recession, and basically screwed the nation so badly that it will take decades to recover (blaming every other person in the universe ... note he's about to throw even Pelosi under the bus ... because that is the CHICAGO WAY).

NO, the fault does not like in Bush, nor in the stars. This is Obama's baby. It lies with HIM, and only HIM.

Youre the one on a different planet. The banks were in danger of collapsing in the last days of Bushs tenure, and some werent sure they would even survive, or if we would. The rest of it is so devoid of fact as to be from another universe. But thats ok, pull the white sheets up over your eyes again. We'll take care of everything.

alex951 wrote:i blame the top of the pyramid

What'd the Illuminati ever do to you?

tzor wrote:He took a minor recession, and basically screwed the nation so badly that it will take decades to recover (blaming every other person in the universe ... note he's about to throw even Pelosi under the bus ... because that is the CHICAGO WAY).

I wonder what you would be saying if the gov. just stood back and let thing play out.

Woodruff wrote:

alex951 wrote:i blame the top of the pyramid

What'd the Illuminati ever do to you?

they didn't accept my application

tzor wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:Well, we came OUT of the recession under his watch. Too bad, but if you want to play the blame game, then it goes both ways.

Tell that to the people who are still unemployed.

PLAYER57832 wrote:I see, so according to you the unions are the bogeyman, the reason we are in this mess?

Well they are the reason why GM was in its mess.
They are the reason why many states are in a financial mess.
They are the reason (the teacher's unions specifically) why local property taxes are so high.
(Elementary education where I live now costs more than the typical college tuition on a per student basis!)

In a way you are correct. The unions are partially to blame for this situation. The reason they are to blame is because without them in the first place, we would have had nothing in the first place. The unions were started to protect the common worker from being so ridiculously exploited as to not be able to make a living. Their beginning was the beginning of the American Dream and what made it possible for more people than possibly any other event in our history.

It is not the unions however that got GM into trouble. Many factors were to blame and certainly as mentioned before, building the most fuel inefficient cars and trucks at a time when our gas prices went into a historic high. Further, the rate of increase for top executives and bonuses for them has increased as much as 300% while the common workers has increased somewhere near the rate of inflation depending upon the field. They also appraised the purchase price post lease way too high, mostly because they (possibly) couldnt have foreseen the gas price increase and drop in demand for the vehicles, which essentially meant they sold their main product, often at a loss. Hard to blame the workers or the Unions for that. Im almost entirely sure the Finance and Marketing departments handled that one.

If you think ridding the nation of Union, and going back to the day of companies like Walmart that will literally use their power as an employer to literally steal from their employees, and teach them how to fill out government help forms so they can systematically pay them as little as possible is the way to make this country great, you fail to understand that what made this country great is that a good proportion of us were able to go to work and make a decent enough salary to live a decent life.

The problem with this country is that now many cannot. That is not the fault of most of the workers either. Most would go to work today if they could. The problem with our economy is that we spent a trillion dollars demolishing two countries, instead of building our own country with the resources. Further, those with the biggest percentage of those resources were given tax cuts, because as your buddy Bushes Puppet master Cheney said, deficits dont matter. Granted, he was right. They dont matter to those with 100mil in the bank, but they sure as hell matter to those with $100 in the bank.

In any case, the world you think you live in does not exist. We have been surviving on the sweat of a few generations before us, and the rest of the world has been pouring their sweat into improving their manufacturing, while we all danced around looking for an easy way to make a buck, slowly eroding the very foundation that made America great, if it ever really was.

In any case, I recommend you attend those elementary classes no matter what they cost. I can think of no one more in need of them than you.

alex951 wrote:

tzor wrote:He took a minor recession, and basically screwed the nation so badly that it will take decades to recover (blaming every other person in the universe ... note he's about to throw even Pelosi under the bus ... because that is the CHICAGO WAY).

I wonder what you would be saying if the gov. just stood back and let thing play out.

John Stuart put together a great collection of Republican morons saying just that at the end of Obamas first year.

Things like.

Hes done absolutely nothing, He hasnt done one thing etc, etc, etc.

And then shows them complaining about all the things he did do like bailing out our banks, our biggest manufacturing companies, etc.

He concluded I think by calling them assholes.

If you can find it, its very worthy of a search.